There has been a new feature added to the PDGA DISCussion Board. There is now a chat room you can enter. Brian Schewberger was on there & so was Damon.
QuoteThere has been a new feature added to the PDGA DISCussion Board. There is now a chat room you can enter. Brian Schewberger was on there & so was Damon.
...thus marking the only time that Brian Schweberger and I will ever be mentioned in the same sentence.
Other than this one.
QuoteQuoteThere has been a new feature added to the PDGA DISCussion Board. There is now a chat room you can enter. Brian Schewberger was on there & so was Damon.
...thus marking the only time that Brian Schweberger and I will ever be mentioned in the same sentence.
Other than this one.
No, I'm going to make it three times that Damon and Brian Schweberger are mentioned in the same sentance. :rolleyes:
4
brian and damon,
sitting on the tee,
D-I-S-C-I-N-G
first comes the drive
then comes mid-range
then their putting in a crazy challenge.
Okay, it's not that great, but it works.
brimon
or
damonberger
kinda like a bushquayle
okokok
I was chatting with Schweberger & Heeren last night for a few minutes. Chris said he had just found out today that Innova is going to sponsor him.
When I was chatting with Chris Heeren he brought up the Tower Ridge Am Women Rip-off. I told him he might score some points with the chicks if he went to bat for them and Jen agreed. Or maybe Jen said it and I agreed. Anyway, it was nice to see a Wisconsin guy pointing out that Wisconsin TDs rip off their ams rather than having it be some border-crossing Illinois redneck gym teacher.
Funny, once I did the math on the thread, Terry Miller quit responding. I guess no matter how many $2 and $3 fees you subtract from $172, it is hard to reduce $172 to $32. Unlike Nick Kight, I cannot find any benign motive behind that when the TD does not say, "Oh man, we forgot to multiply by 4. I'll send Sarita some stuff to make up for it."
If Terry did a $25 player pack his math might add up in a PDGA sort of way. Did he? What did you all get for your $25 player pack? If you had a wallet full of cash and you were negotiating at my open trunk, how much would you have offered for that bag of stuff? $25? My BGO $25 player pack had a towel, a t-shirt, a Champion disc, a mini and miscellaneous small stuff. I think if you are doing a $25 player pack and $8 off the top for PDGA and Series fees at a B-tier where the informed player is expecting a $10 player pack, you should just put on the flyer,
"No am payout."
Bruce, if you worked half as hard at CONSTRUCTIVE criticism, rather than blasting people who do things differently than you, you're ranting would be a lot easier to swallow.
Please remember, each and every person is different. Each club is different. You seem to insist that people accept your idiosynchasies, but you ream out everyone else who tries something different. You and Terry are PDGA State Reps. If you have a dispute, I think it would be more tactful for the two of you to settle it on the PDGA Board or among yourselves. Slamming someone here becasue they turned you off there is inappropriate. Just my 2 cents. Thank you.
What rip off?
Nevermind, I found the thread.
QuoteBruce, if you worked half as hard at CONSTRUCTIVE criticism, rather than blasting people who do things differently than you, you're ranting would be a lot easier to swallow.
Please remember, each and every person is different. Each club is different. You seem to insist that people accept your idiosynchasies, but you ream out everyone else who tries something different. You and Terry are PDGA State Reps. If you have a dispute, I think it would be more tactful for the two of you to settle it on the PDGA Board or among yourselves. Slamming someone here becasue they turned you off there is inappropriate. Just my 2 cents. Thank you.
Bruce and I are not as alike as some people believe. We disagree on a lot of things...even stuff that matters. However, one thing that we do agree on is that Ams should not be treated as cash cows in general. Specifically we think that if the money that the Ams are paying in is not going back to them, then this should be spelled out clearly in a flyer. There is plenty of money available in a well run tournament to pay for fees and other expenses. I think if a TD is taking more money off the top, the bottom or the middle, then he or she should be upfront about.
People seem to get bent out of shape when Bruce starts talking about specific numbers from specific tournaments. But the only way to break it down and figure what is fair is to look at the specific numbers. I don't think its an attack. Its an open forum for discussion to figure out what is fair, what Ams want from a tournament and what they liked or were dissapointed by in past tournaments.
I'm ok if a TD wants to run a tournament for personal profit. I'm ok if a TD wants to run a tournament for the benefit of their club or course. I'm ok if a TD wants to run a tournament in order to send the Waterford Jr. Girls to Worlds. BUT, when I attend a tournament I want to know where that money is going. When I attended Tom Christiansen tournaments I knew that money was going to Tom. No problem with me. But when I discovered Gary Lewis' tournaments, I started attending those because I knew some of the money was going to the PDGA and some was going to the local club and courses.
It is a step in the right direction that the PDGA has gotten more strict with minimum payout amounts and player's packages. However, it still leaves TDs open to value their player's packs and prizes at a higher value than the player does. By reading the PDGA forum, a bunch of us now know that most players do not value a D Stratus as a $10 value. If a TD is interested in returning reasonable value to their players, then they can learn what people want out of a tournament using these forums.
I think that is at least my 5 cents worth. ;)
what rip off ?
Do a search of "Tower Ridge" and you'll find it quickly enough... just include the quotes.
Quoteblasting people who do things differently than you
I suppose it would be somewhat hypocritical to blast people doing the same things as me so that only leaves blasting people doing different things. :blink: If you are saying that I'm blasting them only because they are different then please feel blasted for being an idiot. Please note that that was a conditional blasting; if I am misunderstanding you I'll step in front of that blast and take it all on me.
I think if you care about PDGA disc golf then the issues raised by the No Foolin thread are important. Do you think its right to run amateur disc golf for the benefit of the pros? Brett, is that the way your high school baseball program works? Do you guys charge your players $43 per game, deduct for expenses and then shift half what remains to the Cubs and White Sox? Is that how they do it in Pony League or American Legion baseball? It is the pressure to add cash from the ams to the pros that motivates TDs to run rip-off formats where they nickle and dime the Ams for $2 and $3 fees.
That practice is simply looney compared to any legitimate sport and it holds our sport back from getting any credence as a legitimate sport. Whenever I explain that to anyone outside our sport they say, "And the ams put up with that?" and I say, "Well, they smoke a lot of dope. I'm not sure how many of them are even aware of this."
On this thread I was mostly asking questions. I thought some of you said you were going to this event. I was hoping maybe someone could supply the missing facts supporting paying back $32 on $172 in entry fees. I'd like to hear it. The TD has not offered any math justifying what he is doing. What the lone defender posted on PDGA.com is that the players got a $25 Discraft disc. I did not know there WAS a $25 Discraft disc! Then someone else came on and said that was a misinterpretation and I was twisting his words. I thought I had quoted him.
I showed how a TD can pay all those $2 and $3 fees without taking it out of the am payout and the response went something like this:
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
Which is the response I usually get from people who fully believe in milking the ams but are a little bit uncomfortable being outed. You give them some irrefutable facts and they just slink away. They know that the vast majority of am disc golfers are easy marks and will be back next year.
Let me tell you something else: I really do not enjoy being the one who has to expose this kind of stuff. It makes my life more stressful. It does not make me more popular and it does not make me any money. If someone else want to volunteer to be the tireless gadfly to those who see ams and hear, "Mooooo," I'll gladly give you my cape, utility belt and invisible airplane.
QuoteLet me tell you something else: I really do not enjoy being the one who has to expose this kind of stuff. It makes my life more stressful. It does not make me more popular and it does not make me any money. If someone else want to volunteer to be the tireless gadfly to those who see ams and hear, "Mooooo," I'll gladly give you my cape, utility belt and invisible airplane.
Bruce,
I appreciate what you do for me. Being an Am, I support your efforts 100%. I too took some heat for some posts last summer on the PDGA board about payouts. It is not fun. Everyone calls you a greedy Am.
The one thing i've learned,
TD's, advertise fully what you are doing.
If you are making money for yourself, advertise it.
If you are making money for you club, advertise it.
If you are making money for course improvement, advertise it.
If your merchandise is overpriced, advertise it.
If you are giving D-Strati as player packs and calling them $10.00 discs, advertise it.
If you are going to pay back $32.00 of $172.00 entry fee, advertise it.
If I play the tournament and know that ahead of time, I won't say a word.
Nobody wants to talk to Bruce (oh, you mean 'get preached to in a dictatorial and judgmental manner')?
Gee.........
/Quote/
That practice is SIMPLY LOONEY compared to any legitimate sport and it holds our sport back from getting any credence as a legitimate sport. Whenever I explain that to ANYONE outside our sport they say, "And the ams put up with that?" and I say, "Well, they smoke a lot of dope. I'm not sure how many of them are even aware of this."/EndQuote/
I can see how focusing in on that quote might make you a bit defensive or offended, Jim. But I think focusing only in on that makes it easy to miss the point.
The point is really "Do Ams want to pay the pros for the priveledge of playing in a disc golf tournament?" I think the answer to that question is no and at any of the tournaments that I am running or involved with the Ams will NOT be paying the pros.
If any pros are out there, I am not slighting the pros either. We are still paying back the pros 100% of their entry fee.
This is actually the path toward the growth of the sport and the possible creation of a real professional division. The people who watch bowling on TV are bowlers. The people who watch ball golf on TV are ball golfers. The people who will watch disc golf on TV are disc golfers. How do we get spectators for disc golf? We grow them! Growing amateur disc golf is how professional disc golf is going to grow. It won't grow by taking $10 from every amateur and giving it to the pro division or to the pros at the next big event.
This sport will grow, no doubt. But you cannot force everyone to play the Brakel Way. THAT was my point. Blasting someone here (who does not read this board and cannot defend himself) is not professional or courteous. That, too, was my point.
You and Bruce write so condescendingly and subtley try to redirect others' posts, and you both missed my point. I said nothing about how money/prizes are awarded or about TD disclosure. But that's what your direct response to me was focused on.
Let me make it very clear.
I am sick of Bruce's didactic and judgmental soapbox preaching all the time. Yep, the Brakels do some good things for disc golf (as I have said numerous times). But the irritating, blaming, conceited, circumventing manner in which you sometimes try to bring about change is unhealthy. And it is NOT behavior a PDGA State Rep should display.
I can appreciate your point, I was just trying to direct the discussion toward more positive talk rather than focusing on the negative issues.
There is no "Brakel Way" as I have said before, Bruce and I differ on many issues. To lump us together just because we have the same parents is kind of limiting.
I have no desire to force anyone to do anything. I'd like players to be educated so that they may make the decision that is right for them. I think that the way that Bruce, Brett and I run our tournaments is appealing to both the amateurs and the pros. They can let us know by playing this summer.
I am trying not to get in an unconstructive argument with you Jim, because I tire of those. I'm trying to understand your perspective. Sometimes I feel like you misinterpret Bruce's conviction for something else. I don't think Bruce wants to change the disc golf world like a dictator, but I do think that he has a conviction for what is good for disc golf.
The PDGA forum on our DISCussion board was created to discuss PDGA issues and related information. This is so that the Discontinuum people can discuss these issues and find out what people right here think. The No Foolin' and Tower Ridge discussion were PDGA Discussion topics started by other players (unrelated to any of the Brakels).
I can't speak for anyone else, but if I have players from Peoria play the IO series, I would not be upset if they posted about it and used my name on the PFC board. By being a TD I realize that I have put myself out for judgement and I know that often I will not hear directly about that judgement.
Man, you guys.... :angry:
I think this is discussion forum... not an argument forum. I think that anyone taking these discussions personally to the point of argument is ridiculous :angry: !!! I dont think that non-Discontinuum members(or members for that matter) are coming here to read our discussion page for the purpose of club members bickering at eachother!!! It really think that it looks poorly on us as a club, and my personal opinion is that if you dont have something nice to say, dont say it at all!!!
Sorry for the thread drift, but come on, this is really BS!!! Isnt there a Officers only forum??? You guys wanna fight, put that shit in there, I am sick of reading you guys fight!!! If you have something constructive to say about the PDGA discussion page say that here!!! If not, move it somewhere where I dont have to read about it!!!
Nothing personal on against any parties involved, I am just tired of it!!! :(
QuoteNothing personal on against any parties involved, I am just tired of it!!! :(
I have been trying to participate in constructive discussion. If I have failed in that and it seems like I'm argumentative, I appologize. If your comment wasn't directed at me, then I say, hear hear! ;)
QuoteLet me make it very clear.
I am sick of Bruce's didactic and judgmental soapbox preaching all the time. ... And it is NOT behavior a PDGA State Rep should display.
Actually, it was my platform when I ran for state coordinator. Dale Noel was the nice guy, go-along-get-along candidate who everyone could count on to stay clear of controversy. I put in my rather brief campaign statement that I would continue to be a gadfly to those who think the amateur divisions should be run for the benefit of the pro divisions. When I ran for state coordinator I was already a message board prick. I promised not to change my tune.
But I'm still looking for answers to those questions:
Did any of you play Tower Ridge?
Was there a $25 player pack?
Was it worth $25 in the sense that you would have paid $25 for it?
What was in it?
Instead of answers all I get is invective about my style.
Bruce, I played Tower ridge a few years ago and got a cheap tag for a players package. It was ran quite poorly, I remember that it was running an hour late because the TD's kid ran out of gas...he wanted to play.
I'll never go back to this event as an AM again, maybe when I turn Pro, 5 years from now...masters baby!
We should talk about how it is not worth it to go Pro and get into slightly friendlier topics.
QuoteWe should talk about how it is not worth it to go Pro and get into slightly friendlier topics.
I think "turning pro" has created a bunch of our current PDGA tournament directors. I'm not sure how many, but there are a bunch of TDs out there that are pros who haven't played tournaments in years. Since they couldn't compete, they started running tournaments. I know for Gary Lewis it was an injury that took him from player to TD, but for some it was turning pro after playing well at a small tournament and thinking they were ready for the show.
For me, I like being one of the only Rec playing TDs. I just keep telling people that I'm a better TD than a player! ;)
;) :o :huh: i played tower ridge
ill do the math later
:( :) B)
Google search...and what do I find?
Bruce <_<
QuoteGoogle search...and what do I find?
Bruce <_<
What were you searching for? :ph34r:
QuoteQuoteGoogle search...and what do I find?
Bruce <_<
What were you searching for? :ph34r:
My guess? That's Nick Kight and he was googling either tower ridge or player pack or both.
QuoteGoogle search...and what do I find?
Our board! Yay for search engine visibility!! :D
what's scarier?
everyone knowing bruce
or
nick kight hunting him down...........
;)
knick night hunting him down. pretty soon we'll need an Internet restraining order! ;)
The KCWO Rip-off Thread finally got started at PDGA.com. If you enjoyed the No Foolin' Rip-off Thread, this is another not to be missed.
For Diron and other new players, every year that there has been a KC Wide Open and a PDGA.com discussion board, there has been a KCWO Rip-off Thread that starts a day or two after the event and goes on for a week or two.
I got the full Klemrock treatment. I tried to be as nice as I possibly could.
click here for the klemrock non-rant, non-slam (http://www.pdga.com/msgboard/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=208133&page=0&view=&sb=5&o=&fpart=&vc=1)
I replied at the same time you were Jon. I encourage anyone that attended the event to post on that thread. We have nothing to hide. How about the 1st Place Advanced player walking away with $150.00 funny money plus $15.00 more from him choosing the funny money player pack. WOW.
The thing I find most amusing is that 3 of those questions a certified official and someone that has run a pdga event should know.
QuoteThe thing I find most amusing is that 3 of those questions a certified official and someone that has run a pdga event should know.
Whatever. If the thread stays fresh, more people learn about the series. If people ask questions, even bizarre questions from left field, you get a chance to repeat your talking points.
Bart Zandstraa is not shy. If paying the juniors 46 and a trophy on 46 in entry fees did not work for him, we would have heard.
A Wisconsin player said nice things about IOS #2 at the pdga.com discussion board under the Discontinuum topic area.
Under "Players" the Cam Todd thread has been interesting. I have been restrained in what I have been saying since I'm one of the judges of the issue, but that iqbal sure is full of it. He is not helping Cam Todd by confronting the evil :ph34r: conspirators on the PDGA BoD! :D
I just figured out what the :ph34r: face means! Google is so useful.
Heh. I was going to mention that thread, but decided against it. Its a funny read, all however many pages of crap it is...
that is an interesting thread. 4 months does seem a bit harsh for a touring player. I wish I could have seen Cam blow up. That stuff always entertains me since I've been known to have some troubles in that area my self :( I suppose 4 months might have been lenient too though depending on what was said and who it was in front of.
Quotethat is an interesting thread. 4 months does seem a bit harsh for a touring player. I wish I could have seen Cam blow up. That stuff always entertains me since I've been known to have some troubles in that area my self :( I suppose 4 months might have been lenient too though depending on what was said and who it was in front of.
He was getting pretty hot at Pickard on Saturday morning at Worlds after a couple of bad shots (a tournament roll on a downhill putt, for one) but managed to control it... you could tell everyone was bracing for an explosion, but it didn't happen.
I think the problem revolves around his blaming everyone but himself, which I don't think you do (or I do, for that matter... ;) )
QuoteI wish I could have seen Cam blow up. That stuff always entertains me since I've been known to have some troubles in that area my self :(
One of the reasons why I got in my car and left immediately after my round at the BMHO [and consequently missed Cam's breakdown] was because I was quietly having a breakdown of my own! That course has some really brutal sections, like several holes in a row where you can visualize a 3 but can't even realize a four every time. This course is so tough, shooting par is a 990+ round. It is not all that long either. It is brutal.
When and how in the hell did the discussion about Cam's suspension get turned into a debate on tax law?
yeah i saw that too
QuoteWhen and how in the hell did the discussion about Cam's suspension get turned into a debate on tax law?
because avg joe is a whacko? I'm not sure but I dropped out after it became clear that avg joe is either crazy or has a weird agenda.