I'm going to have to disagree about Round Lake being one of the best courses in IL. However, I would love to see the changes. Maybe if they happened I would come down from Kenosha more often.
QuoteI'm going to have to disagree about Round Lake being one of the best courses in IL. However, I would love to see the changes. Maybe if they happened I would come down from Kenosha more often.
Ive got to agree with brian on this one. Its an alright course but I enjoy the Peoria and Joliet courses the most. Anyone taking down trees is really hurting the Round Lake course. It needs all the obstacles it can get.
I have not played any courses in Joliet yet, but I do not see how you can say that Fairfield is not one of the best in the state. It has got a little bit of everything. Up hill right, down hill left, the longest hole in the state, open holes, wooded holes, swamps, and a river. That is a lot more than all of the courses I have played. I hated playing at Rockford just because of some of the holes that horseshoe around and have close to no chance at deuce. The heavy rain from the thunderstorm did not help though. At Fairfield most of the holes are tough but have legit deuce opportunities. I have almost deuced 18 even. Andy was with me when I shot just over the basket for a deuce on 18. I still got par with a 15-foot putt to. I want to play at Kenosha but I have not made it out there yet. I think that it is funny that the first tourney of the Illinois Open Series was in Wisconsin though.
Having holes that you CAN'T deuce is what makes great courses! We need more courses that are not only challenging threes but challenging fours also.
Round Lake does not have the longest hole in Illinois anymore.
QuoteI have not played any courses in Joliet yet, but I do not see how you can say that Fairfield is not one of the best in the state. It has got a little bit of everything. Up hill right, down hill left, the longest hole in the state, open holes, wooded holes, swamps, and a river. That is a lot more than all of the courses I have played. I hated playing at Rockford just because of some of the holes that horseshoe around and have close to no chance at deuce. The heavy rain from the thunderstorm did not help though. At Fairfield most of the holes are tough but have legit deuce opportunities. I have almost deuced 18 even. Andy was with me when I shot just over the basket for a deuce on 18. I still got par with a 15-foot putt to. I want to play at Kenosha but I have not made it out there yet. I think that it is funny that the first tourney of the Illinois Open Series was in Wisconsin though.
Try Northwoods park in Morton or McNaughton park in Pekin. Those courses are so much better than just about everything else ive played in IL (Mokena is very close and West Park is fun but you can only throw your roc so many times before it gets boring). I havent played Rockford so I dont know. Fairfield is too open in the front, and then makes up for it with a couple throw-and-pray holes at the end. I feel like if I'm not at least 5 down by the time i get into the woods my round is screwed. Not exactly a great flow. Staying on topic, none of the Joliet or Peoria courses see the amount of vandalism and damage that I see at all the north suburb courses. Buffalo Grove has signs broken and missing all the time. Baskets stolen from the course in Wildwood killed it. Look at the condition of Adler sometimes. Even Streamwood had a basket stolen. People wonder why there arent championship-caliber courses around here...
I've never been crazy about Fairfield myself for the same reasons, although I rarely shoot well there anyhow. There are a lot more interesting courses, even in NE Illinois.
They did a heck of a job at Mokena so I hate to criticize, but I think they could have built a terrific 18-hole course there instead of cramming in 27. As it is it's good, not great, although I rarely shoot well there anyhow. Finding your disc there in the fall is a real challenge too; they don't call it 'The Oaks' for nothing... :P
The courses around Peoria are definitely worth a trip more than once a year, although I did shoot a little better there the last time I went down.
(edit) ....thread drift in progress.....
I agian am going to have to disigree with jon. I think that it is better when there is a very small chance of duece but it is still there. Having holes that are not even possible and have more luck than skill involved is not good golf and does not give the advantage to the better golfer. I dont know just what I think.
Personally, I like a good mixture. I think that is why I liked all 3 courses we played at Mid-Nationals & many of the courses in Des Moines. There is nothing more satisfying than taking a 3 on hole #16 at Granite Ridge. It takes 2 perfect drives to take a 3. 75% or more of the field probably took a 4 which is a par. Those courses can kick your butt if you are having an off day. There are birdie holes scatter throughout the courses but they still take quality shots. It takes skill & you have to be able to work a disc to play these courses.
I cannot stand playing Fairfield often. Any player that throws 350ft & in hyzers can score well on this course. 1,2,3,4,5,7,,8,9, 11, 13, & 14 are all right hyzer holes. Even #6 is a righty hyzer if you can throw far enough. Hole 12 in my mind is an example of poor design. That hole is out of range of most pros unless they are hitting 75 to 100ft upshots. Even the top pros cannot consistently drive 537ft. For most advanced/pro players this is a simple three with a very occassional birdie by someone. I would rather see it lenghtened to make it a hard 3. You do not need to be a good player to shoot well at Fairfield.
I'd rather play holes that challenge me on every shot than deuce or die type holes.
QuoteI agian am going to have to disigree with jon. I think that it is better when there is a very small chance of duece but it is still there. Having holes that are not even possible and have more luck than skill involved is not good golf and does not give the advantage to the better golfer. I dont know just what I think.
I think you are assuming that an undeuceable hole is a hole with no route. Jon is thinking an undeuceable hole is a hole that most players cannot reach in 1 throw.
If you read the USADGC thread on PDGA.com you can find some descriptions of undeuceable holes. #2 is 750 mostly up a very steep hill. Very few players ever score a three there, but a player who can throw 500 feet on flat can get up the hill in two throws if both are in the fairway. #3 is about 900 feet long back down the same hill and up the next hill. A deuce requires a 600-700 foot drive down and a long fairway ace. That hole has been deuced by cannon-boy types getting well placed 800+ foot drives, but deuces are few. #5 is only about 600 feet long but a well placed, well thought out drive is going to leave you 300 feet from the basket. Maybe it has been deuced. I've seen some players hit the landing zone and get threes.
In real golf only four of the 18 holes should be reachable in one shot and four should not be reachable in two shots unless they are really, really long shots. What we play is modeled after putt-putt golf rather than real golf. Even the USADGC course is mostly par 3s.
I agree, but disc golf is not real golf. There are many differences, and why should you make it the same way. It is a different sport with the same concept, but I do not see why we should model are courses of theirs. You need to be a trend starter not follower. Again just my 2 cents
QuoteI agree, but disc golf is not real golf. There are many differences, and why should you make it the same way. It is a different sport with the same concept, but I do not see why we should model are courses of theirs. You need to be a trend starter not follower. Again just my 2 cents
Because all par 3 golf is not as fun as a good mixture of more challenging holes. Again, I would like disc golf to grow into a well respected sport. I think holes that can differentiate between mediocre and good play is essential. If you have never played anything but par 3 golf you will not understand. I didn't understand until I played courses with pars that were 60+.
There are very few holes around here that have any challenge to them at all.. I'd say that on the average you could change at least a third of the holes on any given course to a par 2.. WI and IL have to change their design attitudes when we put new courses in, we need championship callibor courses.
Check out http://www.charlottedgc.com/renaissance.htm (http://www.charlottedgc.com/renaissance.htm) It is a par 70 18 hole course... you just have to use your head to play well at a course like this.. Take the virtual tour on this site and see for yourself... This is not a ball golf course this course is designed for discgolf... we don't need more ball golf courses that let us on to there courses..
This topic needs it own thread
I think the focus should not necissarily be on length, as much as accuracy. Look at #15 at Streamwood. It's around 750 ft. without a hugely lucky shot, I'll never get a 3 on that hole. I still don't consider it a fun or challenging hole though, because I also never get in trouble there. It's a wide open long hole. You can step up and rip it with little concern for where the disc goes. It rewards a long shot not necissarily a good shot. I am not very good, but, I know for sure, I always have a better time on a more challenging course that I score badly on rather than an easy course I score well on. I always feel I'm working on my game at a challenging course, where easy courses tend to make me feel like I've regressed after playing them. One thing, I feel each course should have at least a couple of holes you have to make 2 long shots on a single hole. I know this contradicts my first statement, but, I feel the biggest problem around here is too many pich and put. Even the longer holes can usually be parked, or close enough that the second shot is always a put. If anything, I'd like to see tighter fairways with a lot of trees on either side.
Thank goodness I am making a trip to Des Moines this weekend. I'm looking to get in at least to rounds and Ewing and Grandview. Hopefully I can slip some more time in there. I should move back there.
Mirth, could you please move all these course design posts to a new thread in Courses? Maybe call it Course Design? Thanks!
I agree with Shawn that long, par 70+, 18-hole courses are more fun on courses designed for disc golf than on courses designed for ball golf. Unfortunately, there are almost none of those.
There is not a tour in the PGA for players who want to play executive courses with 12 par 3s and 6 par 4s, but that is what passes for a top notch course in our game.
We shoot ourselves in the foot by starting off with a format that is laughable, if we want this sport to get any respect.
I think that disc golf, like ball golf will need differnt course for different types of players. In ball golf a course like Edgebrook is for hackers. A hacker can shoot ok at Edgebrook but would have a hard time on a country club course and would get killed on a championship course. We have hacker courses (Glencoe, Lippold, Buffalo Grove etc) and country club courses (Anna Page, Parkside, Madison Meadows and a few of the others on Brett's list in another thread). We really don't have much, if anything, in the way of championship courses in the area. Illinois has all kinds for ball golf. Cog Hill, Medinah etc are championship courses for ball golfers.
There is a place for all kinds of courses. I like Lippold, I can score there. It makes me feel good. I play a course like Anna Page and score lousy but do great things for my game. I suspect that a true championship course would just be an ego deflater for me and I wouldn't learn much either. I think this is no different from an ok country club type player going to Cog Hill. He would likely get a rude awakening. Perhaps a year or so from now I will be able to score at Anna Page and want to play the types of courses that we lack. Certainly, advanced and over players will be bored with the same old same old that we have anywhere near Chicago.
Fly 18 is not really the answer. Sure, it takes more throws, but its just heaving it a few more times. A long, challenging disc golf course would be way more interesting, and way tougher than Fly 18. I guess the challenge in design would be to have a hole that plays one way for me on the shorts and a completely different way for advanced players from the longs. If the design is right all disc golfers will want to go there. It would be an easier sell to whoever builds it. If the course is only for a select group of golfers it would be cool, but maybe not cost effective.
If disc golf ever came anywhere near the popularity of ball golf we could afford to have pure championship courses. I don't think we're there yet.
The one thing that does not seem to be getting through is that even our country club courses are par three courses. You won't find a country club built around a par 3 course. It is a silly game. It is our game.
I totally agree with you Bruce.
Bruce
You are right. Par 3 ad infinitum is silly. We need to mix it up. However, it depends on the player. Pitch and putt courses are just that. It seems that you are looking for courses with a drive, an approach and pulling out the putter. On a 400 ft. hole I drive, throw a Roc or similar disc on the second throw and then putt. In ball golf a 400 yard hole would be driver, medium range iron, putter. However, Tiger Woods would go 3 wood, sand wedge, putt. His second shot is really a putter in our bag. A 900 disc golfer would drive then putt on a 400 ft. hole. One other difference is that ball golf looks at two putts once on the green. What's the green in disc golf? 25 ft? a 900 golfer looks to hit in one, not two, from this distance. Me, I just hope I have enough fingers to keep count. :D In any case, your point is well taken. Enough with pitch and putt. It is more fun to have at least two throws before taking out the puttnapproach disc.
I think part of the problem of comparing ball par to disc par is that most ball pars are based on two puts. A par 4 for example. You are expected to be on the green in 2 and 2 put for par. Disc golf seems to be a little different in that respect. We don't have greens that truly dictate put or approach shot. Plus, it has always seemed to me that we expect to really only put once. I've always looked at a good par 3 as the equivelent par 4 on a ball golf course. A whole that will take two really good shots to be able to set yourself up for the par put.
Don't misunderstand me though. I am getting very tired of the pitch and put examples we have around here. I just hope more thought goes into the hole than well, let's add 200 ft to make it a par 4. Unfortunately, I think most park districts in the area aren't concerned with championship caliber. They are focused on pleasing the masses. Most of those masses are proud of shooting 4 under at the sign posted par of Clark Park, which is somewhere around 35 or so. Most districts look at it as a recreation. Something to do while walking in the park. not something that people may consider a true passion in life. What amazes me is that I can go to a town like Des Moines that is loaded with good courses, most at 18 holes. And then come here where they consider a tee marker and a basket a disc golf hole. Because of Des Moines, it's obviously possible to get good courses put in. I think it's a matter of changing the minds of Park Districts though. Which in my experience in two unrelated matters is next to impossible. Most park district managers. Especially the one in the town where I live act like you are the one who owes them something. Des Moines is different, there it's the city council you have to work with. They have a parks department, but, the city council is your first line of attack. That's not the case here. I find working with elected officials always seems to be a little bit more of an open forum than an appointed, or otherwise hired employee.
I am very anxious to help out getting the better courses built though. Just let me know what we need to do. Could it be as simple as just emailing PDs to say, "Hey, ever thinkg of putting in Disc Golf?" Getting them to think about it is only 1/4 of the battle though. Then we have to convince them that just to slap some baskets in doesn't count. It should be well planned and thought out. I know the Des Moines club does a lot of volunteer work for their courses. Picking up, cleaning up. They have designated clean up days for each course in the area. Maybe that would be another selling point from our club. If you build it, we will help maintain it. Heck, I already pick up garbage as I play on any course.
Fairfield needs to be tweeked. every hole can be enhanced, The layout may have passed five years ago as a challenge but because of play and the tech edge of todays game its dull.
Most all Ball Golf courses offer different Hole Placement and tee area's. This would enhance Fairfield.
Fairfield is a fair Challenging course. 18 Targets......It does not rank in as a Top 10 Illinois Course.
But with Landscaping, Tee pads, imagination, reconfig plus other things it could move up in ranking into a Top Ten Course.
I vote #15 Streamwood 1 of Top 18 holes in Illinois. Boring sometimes always a challenge, Great spectator hole.
Well, I just got back from Des Moines. It's really disappointing every time I go there. They have such a plethera of good courses all within a few miles of each other. My brother lives within a 15 minutes drive of Waterworks, Ewing and Grandview Parks. My least favorite of the 3 being Waterworks which is just as good if not better than Lombard. It takes me 40 minutes to drive to lombard. I believe from my brothers house, if he were to drive 40 minutes he has 12 different 18 hole courses to choose from. I'm not positive on the number, but that's what it seems like.
Anyway, I played Grandview on Friday. What a great course. A parkbench or picnic table at every hole. And 2 concrete tea pads from every hole with an alternate hole location for every hole. And every tea well marked for the layout of each hole. Even the alternate teas had their own tea sign with distances. It's very difficult to even want to come back to Illinois to play. I also played Ewing again. I struggled there, but still had a great disc golf weekend. I'm lucky to have a free place to stay there at least. It's truly a great place to plan a trip and get a weekend of golf in. From downtown Des Moines there are about 15 courses to play with the maximum driving time being 40 minutes.
I just wish Illinois had the same mentality toward disc golf. Here it seems more recreation than Des Moines which actually sees it as a sport. And other than Wisconsin Iowa is the only other state I've ever played in.
Fairfield is one of the better courses in Lake County, but not northern Illinois. Joliet (West Park) and Quad Cities (Milan) are some the best in NIL. Both those course have good use of elevation change which Fairfield lacks. But the nice thing about Round Lake is that it is a dedicated disc golf course.
My biggest complaint about the Chicago area is that most of the courses are squeezed into public parks which tends to make the courses short, bland, and you often have to throw around other people in the park that don't know what disc golf is. Beavier is notorious for that with the picnickers on the weekends.
It would be nice if forest preserves used their lands for courses rather than public parks. Forest preserves have the best terrain for the game and sport is evasive enough as to not disrupt the wildlife/foliage of the preserve. I've heard talk of the Lake County Forest Preserve building a pay to play championship course. If that is the case, that could be a great step for Chicago area courses. It could shift Chicago area course designs away from trying to fit a course in a park and allow courses to be built to fit their own needs.
I've gone on a lot of disc golf road trips throughout and south and Chicago is the only area I've been too in which the bulk of the courses are in general purpose parks.
BTW: Played in the doubles tourney at Buffalo Grove and they said they are building another 9 hole course out there. Don't remember when it will open but it will be either end of this year or early next.
Starting back in 1999, I started trying to get the Lake County Forest Preserve to allow disc golf courses to be built on existing LCFP property. I sent in proposals, made phone callls, etc. All met with red tape and/or strong resistance.
I have not made an effort toward the LCFP since 2003. Someone else might have better luck these days, especially if there's a good contact in place.
Getting a course built on LCFP property would be IDEAL in terms of initial building space and future course maintenance. But most forest preserves are required to abide by state regulations, EPA guidelines, and even ADA compliances. Just stuff to be aware of....
Good luck if you guys are pushing forward with this effort!
<above post by klem>
The club has submitted a proposal to the Lake County Forest Preserve. There is thread on the club members only section of the board. Lake County Forest Preserve is Lake County's only hope for a championship calibur course.
It was on the minutes & was discussed. It is going to be discussed at the next meeting as well. Below is a link with the minutes. I posted all the news on the club section.
http://www.lcfpd.org/index.cfm?fuseaction=...tObjectId=23304 (http://www.lcfpd.org/index.cfm?fuseaction=home.details&intObjectId=23304)
I have brought up "CHAMPIONSHIP" Disc Golf course construction to the Development board, and It was met with an extremly positive reply.
more ...
They were looking for locations...(spring 2005)
... If the course goes forward I am Convinced that It will be of Championship caliber.
Funny Thing is that there is no known outline or Charter that can be referenced for optimal disc golf coure design.
The closest thing I have seen is what a Typical Footage for 9 and 18 Holes should be and the distances are very short.
BTY Fairfield Baskets are fantastic !!!!!!!!!! Played this afternoon.
http://www.dailyherald.com/search/searchstory.asp?id=90553 (http://www.dailyherald.com/search/searchstory.asp?id=90553)
No mention of our proposal though :( .
well its says that this recent discussion was started by requests from "local enthusiasts". i think we are the local enthusiasts.
I like the picture of the kid playing 'disco golf'...
There's a punch line there but I'm not feeling that creative tonight; I'll leave that to Barish.
sweet, disco golf was invented in the 70's! Disco lives!
That kid was playing skins last Sunday. I think he is doing the Hustle.
why does stuff in the paper always have to be messed up like that? its always disk golf or frolf or something else retarded. frolf is for little kids and old ladies. or the "frolfing illini" i guess :lol: i heard thats mostly women anyways :ph34r:
its because of spell check and lack of proof reading
This question may be silly, but everytime I drive past a forest preserve I always see fairways and teepads. Would it be possible to add courses in the forest preserves. There is such a potential for this land. Imagine long accuracy shots through winding fairways. UHH-AHH. The elusive PAR 70 course!!!!
There is huge potential. All kinds of terrain. I live in Schaumburg. I hate driving west on Golf Road between Barrington Rd. and Rte. 59. It's all forest preserve with varying degrees of woods and terrain. It makes me crazy knowing what kinds of courses could be in there. I know strides are being made to get the foot in the door. Hopefully something good will happen soon. I know cook county is just full of great places.