DISContinuum DISCussion

Just curious if anybody is interested in changing to a total random draw format.

Wow, what a landslide so far.


I could go either way. Both formats have their pros & cons. I would lean towards random draw because it makes my or mirh's job easier to do when running league.  Making the decision of bumping players to the upper pool is very tough.  

Would anybody vote for having random draw every other week?  that way everybody would get a chance.

only if you and brett cant be on the same team

random draw is a sucker bet for the lower players and the marginal upper players. The two upper players that can paired usually win. If there are multiple pairings of upper players they will be competitive.

We have already found good solutions to how to divide the lower and upper divisions. The one that is currently the Discontinuum voted on and passed rule is to use the points for the current league. Players with higher points get bumped. The couple of times that I filled in to run league this year I used the current league rule. In the past we have tracked ratings from singles tournaments, even for non-PDGA members, but that got to be cumbersome trying to keep up to date.

Brett doesn't like to tell people to play up even if he is using a rule, so I have no problem if he doesn't want to use the rule when he runs league. I imagine the same is true of Al, but I don't know for sure since I've never talked to him about it. I'd rather that we keep upper and lower divisions since I think it is more fair, generally, than totally random. It is more in keeping with Discontinuum's mission also.  ;)  Someone has to say that since Jim isn't around!

So, bottom line is that I voted in this poll to keep the upper and lower divisions, but having someone to run league is more important. I have always thought that the person that runs league should have some leeway to run it the way they want to. It is not important enough of an issue for me to rearrange my life and make time to run league on a regular basis and I would continue to play league when I can no matter which format it is.

I would like to know before I go which format it is...just to know.

not sure if its more fair really.  i guess that depends on how u define fair.  with the current system, i think all lower players have a better chance of winning than players like me or jose who show up every week.  we just donate our 8 dollars week in and week out, knowing that we are almost playing a singles match against a pro player who is playing at a much higher skill level than us (15 wins out of 22 weeks).  if i was a lower player i would obviously vote for that too.  it just sux that at bevier leagues i would be better off if i was a worse player.  but i guess thats whats fair  <_<   i looked and i am -68 dollars for 2005, jose is -107 dollars including CTP's.

i know u all must feel very sorry for me :lol:

i just think the upper/lower system kind of breaks down when there is such a large differential in skill from 1 upper player to another, or from 1 lower player to another.

i think that random doubles would be fun, but i think that it should be only once a month, that way there would be more of an option, so i f you really do not like the idea of playing random draw, then you can still come out and compete for points on non-random draw days, but id play either

If you have a pro player who is much better than everyone else that guy is going to win most of the time no matter what the format is. If you do the math you will find that there are a lot of people that are donators, not just you. I find that the pros for upper and lower out weighs the cons, but if you want to start running league Dan, I'd vote to let you run it random draw. Maybe start with every other week and see how it goes.

if we can play random draw i will volunteer to run league on a weekly basis

I like our league specifically because it isn't random draw. And for the record, I'm worse off for the year than you.

I think our league draws the consistent numbers it does because of the split pools. Perhaps you should ask the guys that run Libertyville's doubles to see how they handle deciding which middle players play up versus down.

I figure that if its random draw and we get anywhere near the turnouts we have been getting that we will have way more people playing the $2 option.  I will be one of them.  Frankly, I should have been doing it anyway.  I rarely win.  I have been paying the $6 mainly because I am a sucker.

However, with upper/lower I have a chance.  With Random draw, it would be very doubtful that I would ever cash in.  I doubt most players who are normally in the lower pool will win very often with a pure random draw.  I disagree with Dan that the lower pool players have a signficant advantage over him.  The only advantage is that a lower pool player will  have an opportunity to be pooled with Brett or a player like him.  Dan plays upper and cannot play with Brett.  However, if Dan gets a better player who is often in the lower pool such as Mirth, Jon, Damon, Mitch, Kenny or Nick, he can win or at least cash.

My original thought was to oppose the change.  I voted against it.  On reflection, I really don't care.  I will start to play the $2 option every week.  I will still throw in $ for the ace and CTP.  One of these days I will hit an ace and for a buck I don't want to have that day come and have no payout. If we go random draw others will follow this pattern.  Dan, Jose, KVN, Tom and other upper players may have a better chance to win.  However, there will be less money in the pool.  Turnout may be ok but payouts should shrink.  I will still play because its fun.  Even a knucklehead like me figures out when to stop betting.  The time is now.

As a very new player, I have different reservations about playing upper/lower.  I don't mind kicking in money to play, win or lose.  A few bucks is worth it to play with a group who is having as much fun as you are.  It sure beats getting thrown into by ignorant kids or waiting for the inconsiderate 8some in front of you (not that that doesn't happen during doubles, but at least it's more fun with others in your group who are like minded).  The problem I have is I'm always the crappy one on the team.  I always end up having to shoot first and most of my throws don't get played.  I feel like I'm contributing nothing to my team.  Sometimes I even feel like I'm just tagging along and just playing someone else's score.  If I can't contribute something, I also feel like the guy I'm playing with isn't having any fun either.  They can't rely on me to run that 50' putt or park it on a 380 ft. hole.  Overall, I think a mix of both formats would be fun.  I understand that on the week that Dan and Brett get teamed together we should just give our money to them, but with a random draw, that shouldn't happen but maybe once.

Aside from that, isn't there some way to handicap the club members and regular players???  When I bowl, play darts, or play league nine ball, all are handicapped so an even playing field is established.  That way you are rewarded for a good week and punished for a bad, but it is all relative to how you normally play.  At that point, it wouldn't matter who your partner was.

i figured this is what people would vote for, but i just figured i'd see.  if i was an 850 player who practices once a month, then i'd want upper/lower pool too.  and i'm pretty sure that everybody who voted for the split pools would feel the same as me if u were a 949 player who donates weekly to a 972 player that u lost to 5 times a week anyways  :)

obviously we shouldn't change the format.  i want what is best for the club.

Quote...if i was an 850 player who practices once a month...

Practice? What's that?

I know I'm not part of this club or league, but here's a suggestion.  The Des Moines club runs their doubles kind of like tsteward was suggesting.  Everyone is divided into 3 pools A, B and C relative to skill level. The people in A pool get a 0 stroke handicap, B two strokes and C four strokes.  Or something like that, I'm not sure about the actual amount of strokes.  When everyone is divided up, it is then a random draw.  Add each handicap together and you get yoru team handicap.  If two A players are teamed up, they get 0 strokes.  A and B two strokes. C and a C 8 strokes.  I'm sure there was an easier way of saying all of that, but i'm simple.  Just an idea for y'all.

QuoteI know I'm not part of this club or league, but here's a suggestion.  The Des Moines club runs their doubles kind of like tsteward was suggesting.  Everyone is divided into 3 pools A, B and C relative to skill level. The people in A pool get a 0 stroke handicap, B two strokes and C four strokes.  Or something like that, I'm not sure about the actual amount of strokes.  When everyone is divided up, it is then a random draw.  Add each handicap together and you get yoru team handicap.  If two A players are teamed up, they get 0 strokes.  A and B two strokes. C and a C 8 strokes.  I'm sure there was an easier way of saying all of that, but i'm simple.  Just an idea for y'all.

Bevier used to do something like that, but it's even more work for whoever's in charge and as I recall there were a fair amount of complaints, which led to the current system.

Which is fine, I think, for all the reasons listed by Chainmeister. I've been sort of in the middle (at least until whatever passed for my 'game' disappeared sometime this summer) at leagues - when I'm able to get there - and when I get bumped up I usually play the $2 option - and I'd do it a lot more often if it became completely random.

In the summer time aren't there totally random draw doubles nights at almost every course around?  In other words, is there any shortage of opportunities to play this format?  

Like Jon I see totally random draw doubles as a sucker bet for intermediate, recreational and sub-recreational players.  Like Dan, I feel like totally random draw doubles is a fair bet for me because I've cashed plenty of times by drawing a good advanced partner in this format.  

Back when Club Kensington was doing stuff, we had hi-lo doubles on Sunday and random draw doubles Thursday evening.  In the winter we did the random draw doubles immediately after the hi-lo doubles was done.  

Hi-lo double is very effective for drawing chuckers into organized disc golf.  Random draw doubles is not so effective because chuckers are not as stupid as they used to be.   :lol:  

fairfield leagues are totally random and they were getting around 25-30 players consistently this summer.  a majority of the players were lower pool equivalent players.  pro players would still win alot of the time, but not 15/22.

if turnout would decrease at all i would not want to make a change.  these leagues are important for bringing players into our club.

a separate issue i have is the players with higher points gettting bumped up rule.  doesn't this just kind of penalize the players who keep coming to leagues every week?  brett and mirth have not strictly followed this rule though which i think is smart.  don't keep making the same player donate 3 weeks in a row even though there are other lower players noticeably better than him, but they just don't come often enuf to get many points.

its a hard decision to make especially when u have alot of people.  bevier leagues are definitely the most organized, well run leagues in this area.

Quotea separate issue i have is the players with higher points gettting bumped up rule.  doesn't this just kind of penalize the players who keep coming to leagues every week?  brett and mirth have not strictly followed this rule though which i think is smart.  don't keep making the same player donate 3 weeks in a row even though there are other lower players noticeably better than him, but they just don't come often enuf to get many points.

its a hard decision to make especially when u have alot of people.  bevier leagues are definitely the most organized, well run leagues in this area.

I agree.  I never understood breaking down things by points.  Last year I was even worse than I  am now but I showed up most of the Fall and accumulated a fair amount of points.  Based on this I would be considered for the upper pool, which we all know would be amusing for everybody else and brutal for my partner.  Granted, the idea is to make it easier on the people running the leagues (Thanks Brett, Jon, Mirth) but it would seem PDGA rating or consensus--we know who is who --would be better criteria.

I also agree that being bumped by points is not a great idea. Perhaps the BOD just needs to get together and axe that rule. I just follow it because it is the rule...and I am German.  ;)

Maybe it would be easier to select a group of people who may be eligible to be bumped. For instance, you have 1 spot that you need to fill in the upper pool. You ask for 4 volunteers or select 4 people based on knowledge of play. In this case we'll say it is Jon, Mitch, Mirth and Damon. They would draw cards or flip and the odd man out plays upper that day. Maybe it wouldn't be so harsh to select a group of eligible upper players and have fate decided who will actually play up. "The claw chooses!"

alright.  here is my last idea.  its a good one.  to immediately remedy this situation, brett can just agree to not win more than 50% of the time.  75% is just too much for me to handle  :)   i wouldn't mind donating every week so much if it weren't for the fact that we are all donating to the same person every week  :lol:  that being said, he bought me taco bell after he won the other week, so i guess it all turned out well in the end   :lol:

my real plan here was to work brett into getting overconfident next week.  just when i say i have no chance is when i'll finally put a victory on the board for fall leagues!

As far as the handicap system, I wouldn't mind returning to a handicap system but I think it should be up to the league director if he wants to deal with that. If we were to return to a handicap system we would need to have a volunteer to track who gets what handicap based on whatever system we decide.

we ditched the handicaps because it was too much of a pain to accurately keep track. perhaps things are different now, perhaps not.

I rarely, if ever, when running leagues go to points for bumping people. I look around at who isn't decidedly 'upper' or 'lower' and pick the most skilled player out of the bunch.
Yeah, it sucks for me, Kenny, Mitch, Andrew H, Jayson, Deryk, and anyone else that has been bumped for a day. Unless a miracle happens or you're paired with a lower player of equal skill (or having a good day) you're effectively doomed to not cashing.

Maybe rating is the right way to go again. We were trying to use ratings last winter/spring... The only issue I can see happening with using ratings is the people who aren't PDGA members <caugh>kenny, nick<caugh>

my instinct is to say the handicap system will only cause more problems than its worth.

i think that rating is probabyl a good idea, but it can deffinetly cause some problems because some people are not pdga members, i think that it should probably be volunteers first, and then whoever is running leagues disgression, i dont think points is fair because if someone does not show up for a bunch of weeks then they will have the advantage of player lower, wehn a less talented player is forced to play upper because he has been there more often

We used to have upper/lower with handicaps but it seemed like every week there was a dispute. Pro-0, Adv-1, Int/Rec-2. Any pro partnered with any other player was 0 strokes. An advanced player partnered with another advanced or int/rec got 1 stroke. Any Int/Rec partnered with another Int/Rec got 2 strokes. At the time everyone wanted to get rid of that rule. I've seen this rule in effect at Adler. Sometimes it works & sometimes it does not.

I try to do my best to get the proper players playing upper pool each week. It's a very tough decision. I look at skill first. It is not always clear cut. If it's close between several skilled players i'll go to points. I don't think it's fair to the lower players that are contending for points to get moved up each week so i'll rotate it around with that group of players. I have on occasion had that group of players draw a card to see who gets bumped.

I'm not sure what the solution is. Keep it the same,  handicap, or random draw. I don't mind any of the 3. Taking way the upper/lower would be fine since it takes away the tough decision of bumping players to the upper pool. One reason I don't want to change is many players like the upper/lower thing. If it's better for the league I can stay home. I don't think my wife would have a problem with that :D .

I think you do a pretty good job with the upper and lower decisions Brett. When you go to do an agenda for the December meeting can you include a topic for us to vote on repealing the points rule for bumping and adding a more flexible rule for the person running league to decide?

I think the handicap works well when you have someone to track who is in what group. If someone wanted to volunteer to do that we could look at going back to a handicap system.

Another way to involve the lower players more and even out the teams would be to play other games besides best shot. Jon's double alternating best shot is a good game that the lower player can be much more involved in than plain best shot. Alternating shot does that also but JDABS allows you to throw just as often as in best shot but with more shots coming into play. I would suggest playing nine holes of JDABS and nine holes of best shot one week and see how people like it.

I'd rather that we keep upper and lower divisions since I think it is more fair, generally, than totally random. It is more in keeping with Discontinuum's VISION also.

C'mon, Jon, get it right!  smile.gif

QuoteI'd rather that we keep upper and lower divisions since I think it is more fair, generally, than totally random. It is more in keeping with Discontinuum's VISION also.

C'mon, Jon, get it right!  smile.gif

VISION, D'oh! Sorry Jim.

actually random draw would be the only 100% "fair" way i think.  its the same for everybody that way.  but as long as the people who actually go to leagues want upper/lower then its all good.  there are plenty of random draw doubles leagues to play in the summer.

somebody else voted for random draw besides me!!   :lol:  

I hate to agree with you on something Dan but it was me.

Neal I can't believe you have a putter as your avatar.  I guess this means your going to learn how to throw it now??   :lol:  

That putter made me some cash last weekend so I guess I will put it up