DISContinuum DISCussion

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The new lost disc rule is stroke, penalty and distance just like golf.  That means if your tee shot disappears into the cattails and a three-minute group search does not locate it, and the cattails are in bounds, you walk back to the tee and are throwing 3.  If your second throw gets lost in the cattails or schule, you walk back to whereever the group thinks is about where you threw from and now you are throwing 4.  The rule of taking a penalty and playing it from where it was last seen is no longer the rule.

Out of bounds is still the same for purposes of the big swamp.  Take a penalty and throw from where you were last in bounds.  Out of bounds is a little different for fenced areas but we aren't talking about that right now or your brain might explode. 

Casual water is still the same too.  If you are found and it is in the water, you can play it in the water without penalty, and you can back up straight back from the basket up to five meters without penalty to get out of the water, and you can go straight away from the basket even farther if we say you can.  The trick here is that if you know your disc landed in the water, you saw it or heard the splash, and you cannot find it, and the water is casual, then it is not o.b., it is played as lost.  If the water is o.b. and you know the disc is lost in the water, it is played as o.b. and not as lost.

We can ask for permission and would probably get permission to use lost disc drop zones on some holes where the walk back is going to really kink up the flow, but then we have to explain the drop zone rule to everyone. 

None of these polls are votes, by the way.  Jon and I care about what you think [Brett already knows what you think!] and the polls help educate players about what's going on with whatever the poll is about.  This poll also helps explain why the new rules are only slightly less insane than your average TD named Brakel.  Can you remember all that? 

Quote from: bruce_brakel on February 04, 2006, 10:04:58 AM


If your second throw gets lost in the cattails or schule, you walk back to whereever the group thinks is about where you threw from and now you are throwing 4.

I believe you'd be throwing 5. But I haven't taken the TD exam yet.  :-\ Oh wait, you mean if your 1st shot was IB.

Quote from: bruce_brakel on February 04, 2006, 10:04:58 AM
If the water is o.b. and you know the disc is lost in the water, it is played as o.b. and not as lost.

I was wondering about that distinction, which is why...

Quote from: bruce_brakel on February 04, 2006, 10:04:58 AM
  ...the new rules are only slightly less insane than your average TD named Brakel.

...is a statement I agree with.  ???

The swamp was OB last year and I thought it was a good idea - probably the only ones who didn't like it were the ones who'd fire it in there expecting it to hyzer back and since I never do that it didn't matter to me  ;D - but painting a line would lessen some confusion as to where the actual OB line is.

Quote from: damonshort on February 04, 2006, 10:48:22 AM

Quote from: bruce_brakel on February 04, 2006, 10:04:58 AM
If the water is o.b. and you know the disc is lost in the water, it is played as o.b. and not as lost.

I was wondering about that distinction...

and now after reading some of the stuff on PDGA.com about provisionals I'm confused again. Assuming water is OB, if you throw in the water and can't see it, is it lost or OB? If you can see it, is it just OB even if you can't retrieve it?

It makes a difference as to where your next shot is from... didn't anybody think of this when they changed the rule? I realize that's a rhetorical question.

If you have reasonable evidence that the disc is o.b. and it is also lost, you play it as o.b.  If it is lost but you don't have any evidence that it is o.b., you play it as lost.

If the water in the cattails were declared o.b. and the disc was lost in the cattails, you probably would not have any evidence that it was lost in water unless the entire area was under water.  Whenever it is played as lost, you count the throw, add a penalty throw and the rethrow from where you threw it. 

This makes sense to me.  However, I still have a question.  There are times when you are not sure it went into the water. You saw it fly towards the water but your view might be obstructed.  Last year, Dan found a Sidewinder that I had tossed over the stream.  I had figured it went in and was thrilled to have the disc back.  If there is doubt as to whether it went into the water do we assume its lost and rethrow from the original spot w/ the penalty?

The rule says "reasonable evidence," not "reasonable doubt."  So, first you have to have some evidence.  Then you'll have to hope the members of your group are reasonable.  If the disc was heading o.b. and there aren't a lot of places to hide in bounds and you look in bounds for three minutes, sometimes that is going to be reasonable evidence.

The new rule gives a huge advantage to the groups who play competitively yet cooperatively.  If the guy throwing last goes out to spot on blind holes with disc eating o.b., your spotter is your evidence. 

There are not too many holes like that.  One might be the hole at Fairfield with the wall of trees that is backstopped by the creek.  Some players can get over the trees and into the creek.  If some one walks forward 200 feet to spot that, that player is putting for 3 from the edge of the creek.  If no one goes forward, he's throwing 3 from the tee. 

O.B on holes 2-4, especially 2 and 3 need to be defined well this year. Last year several people shot over the creek and played it as in-bounds, when others said they played it as O.B. What will it be this year?

Thread spinoff.

Quote from: El Mexicano on July 31, 2006, 07:08:27 AM
O.B on holes 2-4, especially 2 and 3 need to be defined well this year. Last year several people shot over the creek and played it as in-bounds, when others said they played it as O.B. What will it be this year?

Thread spinoff.

It's hard to take responsibility as a TD for people paying attention during the players meeting. Completely surrounded by water and completely outside the park were the only OB rules defined for those holes last year. If you were on the other side of the creek and in the park then you were IB.

I don't know if any of you have been to streamwood lately but don't plan on finding anything that goes in the cattails they are full and 9 feet tall.

Quote from: white_rhino on July 31, 2006, 07:39:16 AM
I don't know if any of you have been to streamwood lately but don't plan on finding anything that goes in the cattails they are full and 9 feet tall.

No kidding. I lost my champion beast out there a couple weeks ago. It went in more than 30 feet, so I didn't even bother to look.

Quote from: Jon Brakel on July 31, 2006, 07:14:47 AM

Quote from: El Mexicano on July 31, 2006, 07:08:27 AM
O.B on holes 2-4, especially 2 and 3 need to be defined well this year. Last year several people shot over the creek and played it as in-bounds, when others said they played it as O.B. What will it be this year?

Thread spinoff.

It's hard to take responsibility as a TD for people paying attention during the players meeting. Completely surrounded by water and completely outside the park were the only OB rules defined for those holes last year. If you were on the other side of the creek and in the park then you were IB.

That's how it is played at tuesday leagues.  I like it.

The problem with "completely surrounded by water" as defining o.b. for wetlands that have a very gradual decline is that there are ambiguous areas of mud, peat, and matted reeds that are land for lightweights and not land for heavyweights, as well as areas that are just too hard to call fairly.  We will probably have to go with yellow rope if the cattail area is full of water, and casual water on holes that we don't yellow rope.  But we will need to discuss this privately for about 48 hours. 

Quote from: bruce_brakel on July 31, 2006, 08:31:26 AM
The problem with "completely surrounded by water" as defining o.b. for wetlands that have a very gradual decline is that there are ambiguous areas of mud, peat, and matted reeds that are land for lightweights and not land for heavyweights, as well as areas that are just too hard to call fairly.  We will probably have to go with yellow rope if the cattail area is full of water, and casual water on holes that we don't yellow rope.  But we will need to discuss this privately for about 48 hours. 

But the issue being discussed was the creek which is much more clear than the swamp.

Adds to the mix of the confusions

If ...........

You are standing on the Big Island of Hawaii ...
The basket is on Oahu, but you land on Maui ...
Maui is completely surrounded by water so are you O.B. ?   ;D

And just curious ... Lost Disc or O.B. ... isn't a stroke penalty still a stroke penalty?    :o

Why is it that some just can't except that there are rules and there are places you have to stay away from?
I wonder .... did the Royal and Ancient also have this same conundrum over such matters?

just my $0.02

Quote from: adoni on July 31, 2006, 03:17:53 PM
Adds to the mix of the confusions

And just curious ... Lost Disc or O.B. ... isn't a stroke penalty still a stroke penalty?    :o

Not this year. This year a lost disc is penalty throw PLUS distance. You rethrow from you last lie (or the tee if it was a tee shot).

Quote

Not this year. This year a lost disc is penalty throw PLUS distance. You rethrow from you last lie (or the tee if it was a tee shot).

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Understood .... I've always played stroke AND distance in the umpteen years I played ball golf. 

I think if your tee is on the big island & you're throwing to oahu you have larger issues at hand.

Oahu to Maui....That's one serious case of grip lock!!!   ;D