70 bucks for an advanced team including 5 dollar ctp and 5 dollar ace fund, you get no players pack. Had a terrible first round. Went and got food and then got lost for like 5 min and got back 50 min after we turned in our card to realize they had allready started the 2nd round. Went into the main building to see what hole we were on and nobody was in there nor was there any leader boards or hole Brackets to see what hole we were on. Found a group that lead us to the right hole but we had allready missed two holes. Played a pretty good 2nd round from starting plus 8. Got all the way to neg 2 before we got to the two holes we did not get to play. Talked are group into watching us play the two holes since most of the other groups had not finnished yet and it was not pdga sanctioned anyway. We dueced one and parred the other, which putt us from neg 2 to neg 11 for that round and in 2nd one stroke out of first. Our group agreed with us playing the last two holes at the end and when we got inside the TD agreed with us. After the other groups heard what happened which was fair as hell seing the weather was only worst at the end of the round bitched and moned to the TD cough(mostly Steve Slater)cough. The TD never even talked to us after he said it was Ok and gave Slaters group 2nd with a neg 8 for the day when we had a neg 13 for the day. Never seen so many girls cough(Steve Slater)cough whine about us not even slowing down the tourny when the last card did not come in 20 min after we finnished are last two holes.
that's crap. thanks for the tip, won't be checking that one out next year
That sucks dude, that sucks.
I was neal partner and seriously this tournament was terrible. No organization. They made there own rules and that was that. So dont waste your time traveling to Homie or any other tournaments there.
Lemon Lake is a great course and I would advise everybody to go play tournaments there.
So you are mad that you showed up late for the 2nd round and they didn't let you play the holes by yourselves??? I'd be pissed as hell, like you keep saying Steve Slater (who played 31 pdga events last year, Cannon Boy and BetterThanNeal played 15 combined, who do you think knows more about tournament play???????) was, if they let you play the holes out of the proper order just because you were pissed about your 1st round and took too long getting back to the course. Don't talk about how the weather was worse or whatever else, that is totally irrelevant. The bottom line is you didn't play the tournament in the same format that every other competitor did. Who's to say what would have happened had you played those 2 holes at the beginning WITH your group as you were supposed to. I could give a sh*& who agreed to it.
I don't think that TD has alot of tournament running experience and he just tried to do the best he could, obviously it sounds as if he could have been more decisive.
By the way, he is not the TD of the Homie or Indiana States, so there is no reason to boycott those PDGA sanctioned events because you didn't like this event.
Dan I when someone tells you that they will let it go since we got lost for a little bit and were not that late and did not slow the tourny down and are group and him agrees with it when we turn in are card way before the last one. Then when some little girls heard what happen and whine he re nigs and never even talks to us after he said it was cool is just not professional. I would not care if he told us that we had to take the 7s, but to tell us its allright and then be a bitch later and not even talk to us about it is just low. Then when we asked him about it after he said all of the groups agreed with that after are group we played with and another said it was cool. It was not even pdga sanctioned or had a planned start for the 2nd round. So I dont care how many events slater played or this guy TD'd it was wrong for him to re nig and not even talk to us after everyone there when we turned in are card said it was fine including him.
Oh and I forgot one last thing, Suck my Balls Dan
Just guessing but what probably happened was that some guys in those groups that agreed with you actually didn't agree but said so because they are passive-agressive. They didn't want to make a scene so they let you play them out and then talked to the TD. The TD is probably a get along go along kind of guy so when you presented this problem with a solution built in that seemed fair and other people were allegedly on board, he agreed to let your scores stand as if you hadn't been late returning from lunch. Once the TD was confronted by guys who didn't like that you weren't penalized for returning late, he felt obligated to follow the rules.
By the way, unsanctioned does not mean that the TD won't follow the rules. Most unsanctioned tournaments use the standard rules for disc golf.
It is your responsibility as a player to find out before you leave when you need to be back to the course. Here's a lesson for all you youngsters out there. Pack a lunch! ;D
Also, you should learn the difference between the word "our" and the word "are". Your post is very difficult to read because you are not using our language correctly.
"Our group agreed that we should makeup the holes."
"We are pissed because we were late to the second round."
Thus endeth the English lesson. Feel free to call me a dweeb for correcting your grammar...I can take it. ^_^
Neal, let this be a lessoned learned. It's better at a non sanctioned doubles than a sanctioned singels event. If I were the other players in your division I would have bitched too. Getting lost sucks but what can you do? You put the TD in a bad situation. He wanted to try to make it right by letting it go. I can gurantee he didn't want to penalize you. He had to do what is right and by the rules so it's fair to the other players. I respect that decision by the TD. You put him in that position to have to make a decision. Personallly I would have never asked the guys I was playing with to let me play those 2 holes and if I were that group I would have never allowed you to play them.
I've never played a Bart Zandstra event so I have no idea what type of events he runs.
The Homie & IN States are run by Brian Cummings. Both are good events. You'd be dumb not to play the Homie. That's one of the best events in this area.
I still want to play Homie I am just pissed about the way things turned out at this event.
thats understandable.
Quote from: CEValkyrie on February 04, 2006, 08:39:02 PM
I've never played a Bart Zandstra event so I have no idea what type of events he runs.
The Homie & IN States are run by Brian Cummings. Both are good events. You'd be dumb not to play the Homie. That's one of the best events in this area.
Bart Zandstra is a good guy. He might not have a lot of TD experience and I've never played one of his events. If he is new to TDing an event you should cut him a little bit of slack. You put him in a bad situation...a situation that an experienced player should never put a TD and he handled it as best he could. Consider his first answer to you guys the answer that he made in the "fog of war" and the second ruling that he made to be the correct one.
I dont know if it was the "correct one" but I dont care anymore and I will not play anymore of his events.
i have to say, i'm with cannonboy on this one. i've yet to play any PDGA events, so i guess you could consider that. anyways, the problem that i have is that the TD changed his mind like that, and even worse, he didn't talk to neal about it. i don't approve.
Your story skips some critical details:
Did you ask when the second round would be starting before you left the course?
Did you come back before that time?
Nobody wants to take long lunch breaks in the winter. Everybody wants to go to the car, top off the hip flask, and go back out!
Having the group watch you play the holes you missed certainly is not PDGA disc golf. You are supposed to take par + 4 for being late. Asking the players in your group to waive the rules for you is not disc golf either. "Anybody mind if I take a mulligan?" I say that about once per tournament, pause, and then laugh! Anybody mind if I don't take my penalty for o.b.? You just don't ask those questions.
Hey, wasn't that tournament an Ice Bowl? What's the Ice Bowl rule?
I do recall instances at Majors and A-tiers where the par + 4 penalty was waived when it was the result of TD error.
Anyway, this is how I would hope any IOS TD would handle a thing like that at our event:
1) When the passive-aggressive guy comes up to complain about what he agreed to on the course say, "Are you asking for a ruling or just making chit-chat?" Even if the guy wasn't passive-aggressive in the first place, you still have to make sure what's going on before you start talking rules because otherwise they will trick you into taking a position too early.
2) If he is asking for a ruling tell him to go tell everyone in the group that you said they have to come talk to the TD.
2a) If he is not asking for a ruling, use your judgment as to whether the issue needs to be resolved. You probably don't need to resolve whether DFL gets another stroke. You probably should resolve issues that affect who gets cash or prizes.
3)Before giving a ruling, get the whole group together and hear everyone's side of the story.
4)Look at the rules. You might do some preliminary rule-reading while the guy is rounding up the group if it is going to be a toughie.
5) Talk to the other TDs away from the players.
We had an issue at the Homie with the correct tee on one of the temp holes. Everyone in the group finally agreed on a tee to play, and that we would not try to stroke the players in the lower groups for playing the wrong tee since maybe it was us. The situation was confusing and it was the same hole from either tee. Then the passive-aggressive guy decided to make an issue of it behind everyone's back. He talked to an assistant TD who started handing out strokes without consulting the TD or any other player. When Jon and I pointed out to Brian that there was never any announcement as to what tees the Am Masters were to play on that hole, and the course routing guy admitted to Brian that his announcement was confusing and that the long tee was not marked with a tee sign, Brian did the right thing and said, "Well, in that case, no one should get any strokes."
Here is my major gripe. I might have messed up by not conferming how long the lunch brake was suppose to be exactly becuase the guys who were with us turned in ours and their card. We left early becuase Bryan had to charge his phone and did not have a charger and went to a local radio shack because he works at one and they charged his phone for a little bit while we got something to eat. On the way back we took a wrong turn somewhere and were lost for about 5 or 10 min. When we left from the first round we saw groups walking in from far holes and our card was still not in and that was at 12. We got back from phone and other stuff at 1 and thought we would still have like 5 or 10 min. Well I guess we were late and there was no way to even see what hole we were on. I did not mind that and thought it would not matter anyway after are lousy first round, but we played pretty solid and asked are group if they would watch us play the holes they allready played, since it was not pdga sanctioned anyway it is the TD's decision on weather he would let that go or not. Then when we came in after we finnished them and we did not waste anyones time since we were one of the first groups(probably while rule was made in first place to save time). Then we told him exactly what happened and that we got lost for a little but coming back and are group said that they agreed with our score and he said that it is fine and wrote are neg 11 down. Then after all the other groups came up and people that should not of gotten into the money wanted a rule pressed for us when we had no advantage at all and played the course even quicker than all the other groups and at the same time. For the TD to go back on his word and not even talk to us and tell us that he switched is mind is BS. I would have been fine if he came back and talked to us before awards and said he did not realize and was switching his mind. But to black ball us the way that he did and not even have the balls to talk to us just means he is a pussy in my opinion.
i dunno how the TD should have handled it, or if he can change his ruling or whatever, but he should have talked to you after he did change his mind. that would have really pissed me off. he was a tool not to talk to you.
Without a doubt he should have talked to you. I wouldn't think that would be a reason to write him off as a TD but that would be irritating. I don't know how many players were there or how many people Bart had helping him, but I'd bet that either Bart thought it was taken care of by someone else or he didn't see you and didn't take the time to track you down.
Hey Neal,
How do you "finnish" a hole??? Do you put on a blonde wig and drink vodka the whole time? ;D
I'm just kidding you, but I gotta agree with Zudong, I could only get halfway through your post before the grammatical errors and incorrect spelling almost made my head explode. Since you kick my ass on the course every time we've played, I had to get you on something.
:pottytrain1:
I usually do not even look back at what I write most my errors are just miss typed because I am going as fast as I can think. As long as the message gets across I am happy.
Quote from: Cannon Boy on February 05, 2006, 06:04:11 PM
I usually do not even look back at what I write most my errors are just miss typed because I am going as fast as I can think. As long as the message gets across I am happy.
Well, the message is understandable at least half the time, so I guess you can be half happy anyway. :o
Ladies and Gentleman, here is an example of the double edged sword...
..there is so much legitimate reason to pick on Neal (just ask Dan) why pick on ticky tack stuff like that?
neal,
first off, i understand that you are upset about what happened but you are really pointing the finger at the wrong people. i am not chiming in here to start crap, but rather to defend the truth about what happened.
Did you and Bryan not attend the players meeting in the moring where it was stated that there would only be a 30-45 min. lunch break so we can play the whole course all 27? if you look on the tourny info website you would see that originally it was scheduled to be two rounds of 21 holes....
http://www.channelzdj.com/red_roc_disc_golf_tournaments.htm
so after it was made clear that they would attempt to go two rounds of 27, alarm bells should have went off in your head to know that break wasn't going to be that long. it's still february it's gets dark fast.... again, it WAS stated that break wasn't going to be that long cause of the cold and length of the rounds. honestly, i assumed that you and bryan just went home after round one, cause dean and i figured we would be on the same card as you again. after all there was only a 1 stroke difference....so when they called the meeting for the start of the second round, and we were paired up with two open players we just thought you guys took a DNF....infact we talked about it before the 2 minute warning, as we were walking to the box when we didn't see your van....and we were trying to figure how we got paired with open players (the no scoreport thing really bugged us too)
when you guys drove back up to the parking lot where you saw us putting out on 23, that was our second hole played. so i guess i am curious how you only missed two holes? did you start on 25, 26 or somewhere close? or did your group just wait for you at every hole? cause wouldn't it be illegal for them to play hole with just their partner and no witnesses(804.06 c)? or was it a three team card? granted we both dueced 22, we pared 23, while the open players 2'd it, but it had to take us 10-15 minutes just to play those to holes, i am just curious.....
the only thing i will give you about your arguement was no leader board posted, that did blow. but all your other complaining is seriously uncalled for...
#1 calling out slater like that is extremely childish, and if anything i would suggest you go back and delete/ edit what has already been typed in you original post. i am really not trying to stick up for him cause he needs it or anything, but i doubt he is online to see it....that is of course you went over to J-town message board and he was laughing at you or something like that, then you totally have the right to defend yourself, but i was just over there and nothing of the sort...in fact i don't know if you heard or not, but tom and slater got in a little fender bender in between the two rounds and still managed to make it back for the start of the second. and like you said, there was no players pack so why fault him for getting rightfully what was his?
#2 waiting until your last post to come clean about needing to get a cell phone charged, which IS the reason why you were late, is horrible. you are the ones that didn't have you priorities straight...IMO
#3 not listening in the morning players meeting is probably the cause of all this drama which is your mistake...not the TD's, not Steve's, not getting lost, not having a charged cell phone...it's your bads
and lastly if you were in slaters postion you would have made the same arguements to the TD about the rules. any of us would, i would have...
last year Dean and I showed up to the Lumberjack Open @ Kimball Pines 3-4 holes late. but it was our bad for not realizing the time zone change. pulling in the lot we thought we had a good hour to warm up....when we got there after a 3+ hour drive, it did suck, so i can sympathize with you. we were pre-reg'd and everything....i started +12 and dean took longer to get to his hole and started +16...and hey that one was santioned. my rating still feels that everyday....but lesson was learned and knock on wood it hasn't happened since. all that i am saying is learn from this don't come on some public message board and bad mouth others for your screw up. it's hard enough to get people invovled in this sport/ tourny play without some embelished horror story about a tourny you just played in and got "screwed". be thankful that there are volunteers that give their time and energy to do these things so we can walk around a park and huck plastic. so you made an error, just take your medicine and move on. and just like mr. brakel pointed out earlier it looks like you have broken more than rule saturday....
Mandatory Ice Bowl Rules: #1. Under no circumstances may an Ice Bowl be cancelled or postponed because of weather conditions. #2. No wimps or whiners are allowed. #3. There are no excuses for not attending. (Either be there or be a wimp!) i keed i keed :rolleyes:
personally i like you man, you and i have always gotten along on the course i am not trying to start anything by this post. i have also played with most of you reading this so i would hope that you all know i am not a smack talker or anything like that, i am down to have a good time out there first and foremost(in other words: not the point of my post by far) i know i will run into you soon, and i know this might come off harsh as message boards usually do...but just remember you didn't have to start this post....but i was there, infact i played the first round with you so i thought i could shed some light to those who weren't there. and like i said earlier i just don't want some newbie reading this and it being his/ her first impression of a tourny/ ice bowl...IMO the sport is heading in the right direction and i just want to see it continue that way...sorry for the length, by nature i am a lurker not a poster :P when i first clicked on this post i thought it was going to be about the shots we all missed/ made...so i guess i got a little worked up when you brought it in the other direction...
no hard feeelings, just think before you type is all....i hoped to get paired up with you again some day...i know you are steaming about it, i understand...the lumberjack open has been highlighted on the calendar all year after our mistake, you'll get 'em next time...theres always a next time <_< nice shooting with you too bryan, i think i forgot to say that.....
-Ray Hill
#25183
P.S. <-this is what the alphabet would look like if Q and R were eliminated
thanks for the info Ray! i don't think anybody thinks you are a smack talker, just trying to make sure nobody gets a wrong impression about your local tournaments.
I might have gone overboard initially, but one thing that my parents have allways harped on me is to be true to your word, and that was BS for him to not even talk to us after everyone there agreed including him, to it and then when a few groups realized they could of been in the money and they could try to get a pdga rule put in when we did not even have any advantage. Next time I guess I just got to pay better attention at meetings and drive my self for lunch.
Oh yeah almost forgot, suck my balls Dan.
glad it wasn't taken the wrong way ;)
dan i live in joliet, not a local tourny really....i would have stood up for any one of you guys just the same if i read something like that anywhere....
see you all at the next big one....and thanks again for the understanding and not taking it in the wrong way......
Ray, Thanks for the information. That clears a lot of things up.
I always think it is funky when there is no leaderboard. Even if you don't have a nice scoreport you could pin scores on a picnic table. If you did not have a picnic table you could buy a couple of 2X8s! To me, it is just an expected part of the tournament experience that you will be able to see where you stand between rounds and see how other players did after it is over.
I'm not taking Cannon Boy's side here. I think it is entirely the players' fault if they were not where they needed to be when they needed to be there. I'm just commenting on not having a leaderboard of some kind at anything that is calling itself a tournament.
I'd have to agree. I know Slater and he's a stand up guy. You shouldn't blame him for not getting back on time.
As far as the TD, I don't know him personally but to not inform you was kinda BS.
I can understand the frustration on the leaderboard as at the Lakewood Fall Open they kept it behind a row of tables until they had all the scores down. Then when the AM2s needed to play off, they got irate because we hadn't played off yet. Kinda hard to do when you're not allowed to see the scores.
i've had experience being late to my hole after lunch too. it does happen :o homie last year i walked waaaaay too far out onto the course during the lunch and then realilzed people were getting ready to tee off and i didn't even know what hole i was on. after running around quite abit and getting out of breath before finding my hole i started out bogey bogey bogey on my first 3 holes.
i don't recall blaming the TD for my stupidity though! ;D