I started this thread because we will always continue to see posts about bagging and questions about what divisions to play in. Here is some recent discussion.
http://www.pdga.com/msgboard/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=518240&page=&view=&sb=5&o=&fpart=2&vc=1
From my experience i'm glad I waited until I was ready to play pro. I still do not think i'm pro calibur nor is 85% of the players playing pro across the country. From playing Advanced last year I was able to experience many pressure situations of being on the lead card, playing with a lead, trying to catch someone ahead of me, and many others. That would have not been the case at many events had I played pro all year.
There is no right or wrong time. It's all opinion.
My opinion is i'd rather see players playing advanced and having fun competing and gaining confidence then moving quickly into the pro ranks, not having fun, then possibly giving up the game. You either have to be really naturally talented to become really good at disc golf or you need to get out and play a ton of disc golf. A lot of those guys just don't play a lot of disc golf.
Be patient Sleepy. There are more pros coming. It may be this year & it may be next year. This area seems to be catching up rapidly like you stated in your post of baggers that are playing the Warm-Up
Posted by Bruce Brakel & moved here.
Pro bitching, as seen on pdga.com:
Quote
I am not ANTI-AM golfer but I am ANTI-AM golfer selling the discs they won in the parking lot or on eBay making more money than I do on the golf course when I beat his brains in by 30 strokes.
My response:
Quote
That am is making more than you because he is working harder than you. If you want to make more money selling discs in the parking lot, I'll set you up! Pros make excellent salesmen.
If there are any pros similarly envious of the advanced players who get to play for lucrative piles of frisbees, at any IOS I would be happy to increase your payout by 80% if you will take a pile of frisbees instead of a wad of cash. That's right. If you win $200 in Open and you'd rather have 360 brass, we can do that for you.
I really think that guy does not get it. But maybe its me. Any pro who thinks 180% in brass works better for him than cash is welcome to take that option. For pros who run tournaments and run e-bay stores, maybe that is actually a deal that works for them.
the bottom line here is that I suck. for as long as i suck, i refuse to turn pro and throw away money while making a fool of myself. other players at my skill level or even well below (like 932 or 920) may feel that they do not suck and can compete in pro. good luck!
also, i've talked about this discussion many times, but i'll say it again.
950 rated amateur does NOT equal 970 when u turn pro. thats just stupid, it doesn't work like that.
I don't have even close to enough experience in this sport to determine or make statements as to who should be "pro" or not. I do in other areas though. I used to be a hard core 9 ball player. I see a lot of parallells with this sport. It seems that as soon as someone can regularly beat the local comp they think they qualify as pro. In pool, these people got stomped at tournaments. There is a certain level the "pro" players of any sport have achieved. It is made up of many intangeables, but its end result is someone who thinks, acts, and plays at an entirely different level than most even thought existed. When I watch the MSDGC, USDGC, etc., Climo, Schultz, Todd, Rico, etc. are on such a different level than everyone else. If you can't hang with these guys on a regular basis, then you probably don't really qualify as a "pro". By the same token, if you can't hang with that level of play, then you are not a sandbagger by playing a lower level. It is more likely the people in that lower level are also playing out of their skill level and should be playing a lower division too. Just because you get beat, the guy who beat you wasn't necesarily sandbagging. Best advice I've been given is to just have fun and stop worrying about what other payers will be doing.
Tim,
I'd have to agree with you on the local thing. We can even take it to the next level. Let's take IL for example. In my opinion there are only 4-5 potential touring pros in this state right now. Other than that we could have a Pro2 Division for everyone else ;D. Sorry if I missed anyone.
Steve Forneris-1000 rated- played only 3 events in 2005
Rod Fritz-Masters-996 rated- cashed at every event except 1 last year. No doubt he could be touring with the big boyz of Masters
Kris Hutter-Open-996 rated- not current so I couldn't look at stats.
Jason McKinney-992 rated- not current but I believe he cashed at 04 Worlds. He did not play many events in 05.
John Knudson-Open-984 rating- cashed at 05 Pro Worlds
All of those guys would have to take it up a notch or find an angle if they wanted to quit their job and hit the road.
In Michigan we have four or five 1000ish rated pro masters now. At a recent tournament Schack, Branch, Raley and Gill all played pro master. That's going to do more to keep good am masters playing for prizes than the amount of prizes at stake.
I think at every level of competition you should move up when the PDGA moves you up, or when it works for you. I moved up to advanced back when moving from intermediate to advanced was a one-way door, in order to play Worlds in advanced master back when you had to have advanced master points to get an advanced master invitation. The year after my back injury they made the rule that amateurs could freely move between divisions subject to the age and ratings restrictions. I went right back to intermediate and had a lot of fun. I had so much fun I improved my rating to advanced.
I think having competitive fun is the key to getting better, especially if you never practice!
Quote from: CEValkyrie on March 16, 2006, 10:57:11 AM
Tim,
I'd have to agree with you on the local thing. We can even take it to the next level. Let's take IL for example. In my opinion there are only 4-5 potential touring pros in this state right now. Other than that we could have a Pro2 Division for everyone else ;D. Sorry if I missed anyone.
Steve Forneris-1000 rated- played only 3 events in 2005
Rod Fritz-Masters-996 rated- cashed at every event except 1 last year. No doubt he could be touring with the big boyz of Masters
Kris Hutter-Open-996 rated- not current so I couldn't look at stats.
Jason McKinney-992 rated- not current but I believe he cashed at 04 Worlds. He did not play many events in 05.
John Knudson-Open-984 rating- cashed at 05 Pro Worlds
touring pro? thaaaats a stretch :D
I am a new player and haven't played in a tournament yet. I am 16 and would like to play in junior because i think i would have a shot at maybe winning a tournament or two bu at the same time there isn't much competition in junior. any suggestions on which division to play in?
play junior for a while, see how your scores relate to the folks playing rec. If you're competitive in rec then by all means move up to rec....
i played my first tournament as a junior last year and although it was fun its not really that competive, if you can do decently in rec then id deffinetly suggest moving up if you are looking for bigger fields and more competitive golf.
just play whatever division makes u feel like your a bad ass. thats why i decided i'm going pro now :-*
Quote from: ninjaboy076 on March 16, 2006, 02:33:58 PM
I am a new player and haven't played in a tournament yet. I am 16 and would like to play in junior because i think i would have a shot at maybe winning a tournament or two bu at the same time there isn't much competition in junior. any suggestions on which division to play in?
Quit bagging and play open pro. :o
Mirth's advice is good. If you are not a PDGA member, playing junior is your most economical option at any IOS.
Wow, I guess if you win one advanced tourney and you do not play pro after that you are a bagger. I kinda wanted to wait for after AM Nats and AM Worlds so I guess I am a bagger till then. Oh and I want to try that Mid Nats in Highbridge.
Anyone who is breathing and is not playing Open is bagging. :rolleyes: I've been bagging 14 years!
Well, I played Junior last year in all of the tournaments that I played. I won most, only because I was the only one in my division or that I had a good day. :P For this season, I'm moving up and playing Rec. Last year, I played in 8 events and I got 35 points. Not enough for an invite to Worlds, but my dad got one, so I put my name on the waitlist. Hopefully, I will go too! Thats why I'm playing Rec. this year. If I played it last year, I would of had enough points to get an invite.....
When is the right time to move up? Easy, when you feel you can be some what competitive in the next division. You shouldn't go by your rating. I'm only rated 944 right now, but I am playing open. Why? because I KNOW I don't shoot 940 golf (and not like Steve Mills, where he thinks he's a 970 rated player). I just have 800 rated rounds that equal out my 990+ rounds! :)
Mike, I believe that you feel you can be competitive in open, but so far you haven't really been very competitive in open. Until you start consistently finishing atleast top half, i think you would have been better off staying in advanced.
Fair enough, but most of my open tournaments last year I was headcasing and just didn't care. I've cashed in one of two tournaments this year, hopefully the second will be tomorrow. I couldn't stay in advanced, it wasn't fun for me after a while. It seemed I didn't have to play well to do well (if that makes any sense)
Quote from: MDR_3000 on March 17, 2006, 06:42:07 AM
I couldn't stay in advanced, it wasn't fun for me after a while. It seemed I didn't have to play well to do well (if that makes any sense)
Not trying to pick on you Mike, you are an excellent player and should be a good pro someday.
I agree with you on not having to play well sometimes in advanced to do well. HOWEVER, that is only because alot of the good advanced players are playing pro. If we all stayed where we should be, then you would have to play well to do well in advanced. But we all have to do whatever makes the game fun, so u made the right decision then. If I get bored playing advanced, then I might make the same decision, but for now I am still having ALOT of fun!! ;D
I just figured I would post pretty much what I posted on the pdga boards.
Moving up based on rating alone I dont think is wise. I personally desided to make a jump because I know I am playing at a much higher level than I was all of last year. I should say a much more consistent level.
The difference between top AMS and Pros is consistency. Player ratings lag behind a players actual skill, its inevitable the way the system works. My 932 is meaningless to me since I have averaged over 955 since July and I would consider my play now to be more consistent than that.
Regardless if you think you should make the move or not, if you do make the move you cant go into it wanting to at least be a bottom cash pro. Regardless of your skill, rating, the field you have to go into the tournament expecting to perform and expecting to win. Sometimes its the mental hurdle of not "being able to compete" at the next level that keeps a lot of top Ams for trying the jump.
I think the one gain for top ams that stay in advanced is that they can learn how to win, learn how to hold a lead, learn how to come from behind to win and that is all valuable experience. Competition in the advanced and open fields in wisconsin has always been tight amongst the fields, for the advanced almost anyone can win anytime and that was clear at a lot of wisconsin tour events last year.
This sport needs more top Ams to move up and up their game more so the Open division can grow and grow. In the course of the next few years the Open field in my opinion will grow tighter and tighter with more players hopefully approaching 1000 ratings. I am glad I live in Wisconsin, and I am thankful that there are just so many great players that I have been able to play with/see play that have helped my game these past few years.
I also wanted to add that I am not the type of person to get discouraged easily and some people do and if they dont see the "success" they want when making the move it might be second guessed. If you make the decision you have to be sure about it. I am sure that this feels right for me. If everything starts falling in place right away great, if not I have the passion and the competitive drive in this sport to push myself to that next level whatever it takes. The first few tournaments of the year for me have come to point out my weaknesses and help me pinpoint the areas that I need to improve on for the rest of the year.
To me, if someone would call me a sandbagger I would take it more of a complement in this sport. I think that we should leave the moving up to the player and the players shouldnt have any added pressure besides maybe some kind of automatic jump to Pro through the PDGA or something to that sort (qualifying or something). Disc Golf is above all about having fun, lets enjoy ourselves no matter which paths we decide to take. Everyone has their own paths and there are many paths that lead to the same degree of SUCCESS.
Hey I was goofing around tonight dying some discs. Got in a stack of Star/CE/SB Rocs. What do you guys think of this??
(http://www.widiscgolf.com/pdga/sb1.jpg)
AND THIS ONE??
(http://www.widiscgolf.com/pdga/sl1.jpg)
Did you use that new dye that you can only see under black light? It does not show up well with flash photography.
Serious? No I haven't.
So how are Hamm's Discs relevent to the topic?
Ok, I only have this to say - Leave those people alone who are playing within the Rules of the ratings - If someone wants to move up - it is the persons choice. If Brunner wants to step up - why should it matter to you Dan? (I only directed the question to you per our discussion last week)
If he feels his game is at the level it needs to be to compete with the pros that are on the tour there shouldn't be anyone bitchin!
People bitch cuz we dont have enough pro's on the tour - then when we get someone who has greatly improved his game since he started playing, we bash him and say you are moving up too early and if you want to donate your money to the top card you go right ahead!
HOW DOES THIS BENEFIT THE SPORT?
My concern is keeping players playing. I have not been around the scene too long. I however do try to get to know as many players as possible and check PDGA results for every event in the area so I feel I know the player base fairly well in the area. I track players and see who is making the transition and who is not & who is sticking around & who is not.
Going pro early can help gain some confidence if you play well but what happens if you start to bomb out? How many guys are going to keep playing the same # events they did before in advanced? Instead of retaining these players they are going to give up playing competitively. The pro divisions will stay the same size if this process continues.
I feel really good about what is going to happen in the next few years around here. I've seen Pat Blake make the transition to pro when he was rated around 960. Too bad he moved to the North Pole :). Sean Butler waited until he was 965 and he's been successful. I hope I do the same as well after turning pro with a 971 rating. We all waited to develope our skills before entering the pro ranks.
I think there is a big wave of 930 to 960 rated guys that are developing right now. They are waiting and I think they'll have success in the future. No, they aren't pro right now but they will be in the next few years. I think patience is the key. These players will keep playing if they have fun and are competitive. How many guys have we seen get called up from the minor leagues way to early, have their confidence smashed, then never return to the majors again?
Here is one good example of Advanced players that either have or will be moving up in the next year or so. This was one tough !@# field.
http://www.pdga.com/tournament/tournament_results.php?TournID=5287#Advanced
I guess my concern is:
If you have a person who in their mind feels that they are ready to move up - and then they would see a post such as this one. Does it discourage them from making a move because they may now second guess their decision?
I hope so. I hate to see players move up early, get their asses kicked, and then decide to spend more time bowling. :D
Well, anyone who has seen my game won't have to worry about me stepping up to Pro, getting discouraged, then quiting - I get my ass kicked in INT!!!
Hey Jeff, I'm pretty sure we had a private discussion where I pointed out some players that I thought shouldn't be moving up quite yet unless thats really what they think is most fun for them.
But THANKS for making it a public discussion on this forum. I don't recall trying to make you or Mark look like a dick on the message board?? I don't recall bitching about it either, I could not care less what he does. Maybe I'll post some of the things you said privately................
i am now done with this whole conversation. if i miraculously have a couple good rounds this year i'm not moving up so don't ask. I suck at disc golf and probably will never improve past the point i am at right now, which is just a shi**y am who shoots 3 good rounds and 5 horrible rounds. if i am still playing in 3 years, then i will be playing advanced.
So let me get this straight?
If an mid to upper INT rated player sits in INT instead of stepping up he is a bagger! if a Mid to upper ADV player sits in ADV he should stay where he is?
I think AM2s should be forced up when their rating hits 916. And upper advanced players should move up by feel, or their rating hits 970.
I had a great time in my first Open tournaments, I was definately able to see the area of my game that needs to be improved and I can see the areas that I already am good at that will allow me to compete this year.
Some advanced players will only be so good, a lot of players will peak at the 950-970 range and never be able to improve upon that. I am too competitive to give up this great sport! :) It takes a lot of dedication and hard work to consistently compete at a top level, and as long as players who are moving up accept that and want to be challenged and have the mindset required then thats great!
Thanks for the propers, Brett! I'd have included you and a few others on the list, but that's probably fodder for another thread. Anyway, here's my experience of movin' on up; I'm posting it here not because there's anything to boast about but in the hope that it might be helpful to others.
I experimented with Open in 2000 when I was 19 years old and had been playing for 4.5 years with the intention of playing 2000 Am Worlds. For the most part, I got my butt kicked! I played a few more Advanced events throughout the summer and felt I could have won most of them (If memory serves correctly, I didn't win any!). I was diasppointed with my finish at Worlds that year (20-something, too painful to even look at the results), but I figured that with one top 20 (1998) and one top 30 (2000) finish, it was time to go pro. There wasn't a big emphasis on ratings at that time, but I think I was rated around 954.
After some very solid drubbings and no time to practice (full-time student athlete), I wasn't sure going pro was the right decision. I tried to compete again in 2002 with some success (rating around 957). It was frustrating, however, to know I could play good golf in practice and stink it up on the last card in tournaments. So frustrating, in fact, that I essentially stopped playing until 2004.
In 2004, I saw a flyer for the IOS. I shot a good first tournament at Streamwood and cashed a few other times that summer and started to get some confidence. At that point (rating about 962), I decided to commit to becoming a good golfer and go to 2005 Pro Worlds. Last winter and throughout the summer, I started to do the little things that add up to better scores: putting practice; field sessions with midranges, drivers, and trick shots; playing tournaments to gain experience; attending leagues. I could go on, but here's a link to the single most helpful post on the PDGA Web site: http://www.pdga.com/msgboard/showflat.php?Board=Throwing%20Techniques&Number=276349&Searchpage=4&Main=272221&Search=true&#Post276349. I still missed cashing at most events, but I played well at my target event (Pro Workds), and that experience has driven me to practice more. You know the saying, "And the snowball starts, down the toilet..." (I doubt anyone will get that reference).
I have tried to stay away from advocating moving up or down. I think it's great when people have aspirations of success in an upper division, be it Open, Advanced, or Intermediate. I don't know that PDGA-enforced standards of moving up or down are the answer, as I feel this is a personal decision that everyone must make for him- or herself. In fact, I've found that I enjoy disc golf more when I don't worry about politics. That just leads to bitterness and anger and another thread. Thanks for bearing with me so far. It's only fair to leave the cyberspace audience with one nonretarded thought: Move up if you feel it will make you a better player, you can commit to serious practice, and you have the resolve to get through the hard times of not cashing. Or, unlike me, you could just be really really talented.
If anyone ever wants to go out and shoot, I'm at Mad Meadows most afternoons and I get really tired of playing with myself...I mean, by myself.
Well said!
Quote from: amdiscgolfer on March 20, 2006, 01:25:53 PM
So let me get this straight?
If an mid to upper INT rated player sits in INT instead of stepping up he is a bagger! if a Mid to upper ADV player sits in ADV he should stay where he is?
If you are referring to my post, I thought I said if a junior doesn't move straight to Open he is bagging. Maybe that was tongue in cheek.
Bruce,
My comment was not directed to anyone particular. More as a reference point to why some are very adement (sp) about getting INT players to move up to ADV - but when an advanced player decides that he wants to move up he is told not to.
You'll never hear people at events telling advanced players who are playing good to stay in advanced. All the players they beat will be yelling bagger to get them out of their division & all the pros will be yelling bagger chomping at the bit to get some more players in their division for some added cash.
Personally, I really don't care who stays in advanced and who makes the move. I just hope they are having fun and continue to play events. It's a tough decision and people have to deal with it.
In the winter of 04 I did some research into plaing pro. I wanted to see what would be competitive. I found 960 to 970 could be competitive in IL disc golf. In many states it is not competitive disc golf in the pro divisoins. To me being competitive would be having a shot to get into a cashing position.
Here is what I found.
Note: The ratings on many of these players have changed since. They were checked in Decmeber of both years.
2004 IL Tournies
179 pro players at 13 events
48 of those were rated 955 or below
5 of those 955 or below players cashed (none of it significant cash & many bottom to last cash)
2005 IL Tournies
191 pro players at 14 events.
65 of those were rated 955 or below
11 of those cashed (none of it significant cash & many bottom to last cash)
Take a look at many events. This holds true most of the time with some exceptions. Look at the Warm up.
2 days of play
32 pros
11 of those under 955
1 cashed
http://www.pdga.com/tournament/tournament_results.php?TournID=5633
http://www.pdga.com/tournament/tournament_results.php?TournID=5891
Tom Schodlter is definitley not a 937 player either. He's back to form this year.
I enjoyed this post this from the PDGA Board
http://www.pdga.com/msgboard/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=OtherPDGATopics&Number=607328&page=0&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=&fpart=1
I agree with many of his opionions in paragraph number 2. People push players to play in the open division and what are the benefits of doing so? You can shoot great golf and walk away barely making your money back.
I disagree with some of his statements in paragraph number 3. It's hard finiding people just to hand out $ to sponsor events.
This year has been a learning experience for me and i'm forming my opinions from this. It's tough to shell out $1,000+ in entry fees and hope to win it back. When you go home and tell your wife you won $80 and she asks what was the entry fee? how much was lunch? & gas is expenise! It's hard to justify. This is why I believe the open division is a black hole. Many enter each year yet it never grows because this black hole eats them up and they quit playing.
Quote from: CEValkyrie on November 02, 2006, 02:13:41 PM
I enjoyed this post this from the PDGA Board
http://www.pdga.com/msgboard/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=OtherPDGATopics&Number=607328&page=0&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=&fpart=1
I agree with many of his opionions in paragraph number 2. People push players to play in the open division and what are the benefits of doing so? You can shoot great golf and walk away barely making your money back.
I disagree with some of his statements in paragraph number 3. It's hard finiding people just to hand out $ to sponsor events.
This year has been a learning experience for me and i'm forming my opinions from this. It's tough to shell out $1,000+ in entry fees and hope to win it back. When you go home and tell your wife you won $80 and she asks what was the entry fee? how much was lunch? & gas is expenise! It's hard to justify. This is why I believe the open division is a black hole. Many enter each year yet it never grows because this black hole eats them up and they quit playing.
There are a number of issues here regarding $ and disc golf. I can understand why some pros get upset at not making any money when there are AM players who score much lower and walk away with prizes. I don't know enough about the tournament process to know if all AM money goes to AMs and all Pro money goes to Pros. I am surprised at how hard many TDs work at raising sponsorship $ which they put back into prize funds. Many of them put their hard earned cash on the line hoping to make it back on plastic.
I don't know what the TDs make on a tourney, and really it doesn't make a difference to me. They are providing a service for me at what seems to be a fair price most of the time. Some much more fair than others, and if I felt it's not fair I let the TD know.
I am certain that everyone has reasons for playing disc golf, like they have reasons playing any sport. I am not aware of any other sport that is organized to the extent that disc golf is, where you can go out on almost any weekend of the year, and if you are willing to drive far enough, have an opportunity to make money. You can join a country club, or find some buddies to play ball golf for some cash, but rarely will you find tournaments with the prize money that disc golf offers on a consistent basis.
As far as gas and lunch, you have to eat no matter what you are doing, and depending on the activity, be it skiing, basketball, whatever, you typically get in the car to do it. Unless you're David B., then you get on your two-wheeler. But I don't think he is making any $ riding his bike.
It seems to me, if you are in it for the money, anything above covering your entry fee is a bonus, unless you are one of the top players who gets sponsored. There isn't anyone out there paying admission to watch us, so everything that we win or lose is coming from or going to the guys that we are playing with.
On the other hand if you are trying to be the best player that you can be, and you move up to the next division only to get your brains beat in, it would be very disheartening.
I think given where the sport is right now, you have to play the game for fun and competition, and play in whatever divisions at whatever events maximize those values. If you are tired of the pro grind, go am. If you are tired of the tournament thing, play leagues. If you are tired of the game itself, try another game.
Pursue happiness, but not with lethal weapons. That is the key.
Quote from: bruce_brakel on November 02, 2006, 08:29:31 PM
Pursue happiness, but not with lethal weapons. That is the key.
Well said Bruce.
That is the problem with the system and why you see so many pros leaving the game and why the pro division does not grow. There is no incentive to move up and stay. As an amateur looking up the Pro division looks like a rainbow. Once you get in it you see it's a black hole.
I disagree with you Bruce on the going Am thing. That doesn't work. It's more miserable hearing people whine and complain about what division you are playing in.
I can understand the $ perspective. You can say let's play and have fun. Unless you have $50 to $100 to flush down the toilet every weekend it's tough to understand until you've been there. I've actually had a decent year and have not lost any money. I do know understand why I don't see many guys as repeat visitiors in the pro division. This process will continue unless something changes.
One suggestion might be to have another am tier that has a rating of around 960 or higher. Another idea would be to split pro into two groups.....making a rating requirement for a lower pro division, this time maybe 975ish. I'm sure similar ideas have been mentioned before.
[on]soapbox[/on]
For pros I think the bottom line comes down to money. I completely understand why the pros would not want to go just go a tournament and try to play for the entry fees. It's more like gambling on how well you are going to throw instead of being rewarded for how well you threw. That points the finger at lack of sponsorship. Players will show up if there's a lot of money to be given away by sponsorship. That's just common sense. Right now the pros that you continually see are the ones that play for the love of the game. They deserve to be rewarded. Am I saying that the pros that don't show up don't love the game? No, but the more realistic answer is that they can't afford it in case they do have a bad day.
So you need sponsors... not an easy task to pick them up. What's in it for the sponsor? Sure their name gets mentioned, but what happens after that? Are you going to go home and completely forget about that sponsor? Probably. What do you need to do? Support the sponsor. Make them WANT to come back. Keep the professional level of the tournament, make the sponsor feel like their money is going to something worthwhile that can turn into sales not only that day, but the next day and the day after that and so on.
Unfortunately right now the AM's have it really nice comparitively speaking. It's pretty cheap to get in, the player pack is more than enough to cover your expenses to the tournament, and if you win stuff you get discs that you can sell and make even more cash. If you went trophy only you won't receive additional discs, but what you received in your player pack is enough to make back your entry fee. Pro's don't get a player pack, so there HAS to be something in addition to their entry fees that makes it worthwhile to come out and play.
Getting the initial sponsors can be tough, but it's especially tough to get them to stay as a sponsor. So if you see a sponsor, make sure to support them!
One other thing that would help - go out and be a fan. Make a pro feel like the top level player that they are by cheering them on. We know that you want to play too, but if it's not your day of the tournament, get out there and watch. Have fun, buy stuff. The bigger the crowd, the more you'll draw in sponsors.
[off]soapbox[/off]
Here is another great example of why the system is so phooked up? http://www.pdga.com/tournament/tournament_results.php?TournID=5530
What is the % of pro women in disc golf? How can every women cash at an event? The 1st place winner of FPO won the same as 3rd in MPO. She beat 8 players. That same MPO beat 33 players.
Check Des's stats. She's made some good $ this year fon consistently beating 5 to 10 women. She would make the top 10 in MPO for $ won this year.
Thinking outside the [soap]box...what about this: eliminate all pro classifications other than A tiers and touring events. Or just plain eliminate all pro classifications period. Allow players who play pro at those events to play advanced or superadvanced at other tournaments. Add a so-called super advanced division similar to what Doug suggested at 975 or so. I agree that playing pro seems to be a sucker bet for anybody who isn't close to 1000. Brett had at one point said that he would wait until he got there but jumped the gun just before he went to USDGC in 2005. He has barely kept his head above water and is doing better than most pros. I don't understand why guys (or gals) in the 930-940 range even bother. Make money on doubles or side bet games. This way so-called pros can return to being what they really are- very good disc players. For those of you under 1000 every time somebody calls you a bagger just tell them to fund your entry fees or @#$& off.
wow, brett - that is messed up. Can I hope to get payouts to 100% of the Intermediate field at IOS events next year?
I'd like to have some of the kool aid that TD was drinking...
hmm, one thing that I've seen that sometimes helps towards increased interest in the pro purse is getting customized discs done EARLY, and then selling them in advance as a fundraiser type of thing (eg. CFR discs) that will take the proceeds and help add money to the pro purse. Once again that requires fan support, but if you really want to see this sport take off, this is the type of stuff that needs to be done!
That's intriguing how the women's and men's payouts happened. Maybe they had specific men/women's purse sizes at the beginning instead of having one overall purse then taking 20% of it to pay out the womens (9 out of the 45 pro players were women) and the remaining 80% to pay out the mens. Sure we want more women players, but you also need to reward the big group of guys that came out to play as well. The more women that show up the larger the percentage they get.
After reading this today & looking at the link Brett just posted, I'd say something has to be done.
I like Doug's idea of another divison. I don't think the X-tier tourneys are doing that well, or I'd suggest that as a solution. Having players who are rated closer to eachother play eachother.
After reading a bunch of Peoria people rant & rave about the women getting all the attention and seeing that every woman pro cashes, I agree that something there is screwy. If everyone gets $, why are there not more women playing?
Here is another.
http://www.pdga.com/tournament/tournament_results.php?TournID=5462#Open%20Women
Do an advanced search for Pro NT's and check out what the top women are making compared to the top men.
Check the names of the MPO players that are at all these NT events. I have no idea how they are able to get by week to week. It would be nice to see the sport be able to support the top players in the World so we can get this game on TV. It would nice to see everyone have to make a cut and earn their way into these events. Instead, smucks like myself can pay $100 to $150 and try to pretend to be pro.
Top 10
Name PDGA# Events State Country Points Cash Rating
Barry Schultz 6840 21 WI USA 7380 $ 22003 1038
David Feldberg 12626 22 OR USA 6637 $ 19116 1036
Ken Climo 4297 13 FL USA 5440 $ 17977 1043
Brad Hammock 5912 22 GA USA 3397 $ 16513 1024
Steve Rico 4666 18 CA USA 5915 $ 15017 1032
Avery Jenkins 7495 17 OR USA 5287 $ 14780 1029
Joshua Anthon 17946 17 CA USA 6582 $ 12225 1027
Nathan Doss 11794 14 CA USA 4637 $ 12046 1031
Cale Leiviska 24341 31 MN USA 6097 $ 10927 1015
Chris Sprague 16425 27 OR USA 7717 $ 10517 1014
Chuck Kennedy has been working on getting the Board to adopt an Expert Amateur division for amateurs over 955. I think it would be good for the game. It would take away any incentive to stay amateur for heaps of prizes, because the division would be small. It would give players who kind of stall out at 960 or 970 a reason to keep playing tournaments. It would give those players somewhere to compete while they get ready for Worlds. It has none of the undesirable effects of a cash-paid Pro 2 division.
If I were a frustrated pro, I'd take my am status back and see what Chuck gets done with MA0.
But there's also the Haggadone option. This guy is a pro master with a 1002 rating and time on his hands. You'd think he'd be at a B-tier every weekend. He has only played like 8 tournaments this year. Kirk does not really enjoy tournaments. He likes to play casual rounds with his boy or with some friends. He likes to hang out at the course and give lessons. He's just doing what he likes to do.
He must be some kind of boddhisatva on his last trip on earth!
Sometimes, especially in Texas for some reason, [and Oklahoma is a Texas suburb!] the TD gets sponsorship earmarked for the women. So he does his A-tier 125% for all divisions [or whatever it is this year] and then adds the earmarked women's sponsorship on top of that.
But sometimes a TD will add disproportionately to the women's payout for no reason that makes anymore sense than adding disproportionately to anyone else's payout.
Brett, I agree those payouts are completely nuts. My preference would be to see added cash added to MPO and FPO divisions proportionally. So, if you have a sponsor adding $1000 to the pro payout and you have 40 pro men and 7 pro women then you'd add about $150 to the pro women's purse and $850 to the pro men's purse (or do you say "man bag"?). My preference is to not add cash to age protected pro divisions at this time.
On the am side, when I talk to potential sponsors, I like to see added stuff rather than increased payout. Like the flight life discs at IOS #2 or the t-shirts added to the player pack. Free lunch would be a great sponsored item also.
There's so little added money in this sport that I'm not sure what affect it does or could potentially have on getting the sport on TV. I'm not sure how that ties into the added cash equation. I think once the sport has enough fans it will be on TV. Having said that though, if Brett (or anyone else for that matter) has any ideas on what we can do to help this problem, I'm all for being part of the solution rather than part of the problem.
Payouts have nothing to do with getting on TV. There is no payout for college football or basketball.
Getting on TV has everything to do with someone's ability to sell the concept to a producer, and his ability to sell the concept to the people who advertise on his shows.
You don't even need a fan base. There was no fan base for Who Wants To Be a Millionaire or "Open the Box," whatever that show is called. Most TV shows start with no fan base. If the show is interesting, boom, fan base.
I think if you knew a producer of reality based TV you could pitch a show about ten guys, a Winnebago, two tents and the PDGA M/A/NT. It would be a great game show. Every week if you don't cash they can kick you off the bus. The winner could keep the Winnebago!
Just another reason disc golf will not grow and the pro fields will not get bigger.
Why are sponsorships that are hard to find being added to microdivisions? Disc golf will never grow at the pro level if this continues. This is like starting the WNBA before the NBA.
10. Cale Leivaska- 36 Events - $13,277
1. Des Reading- 23 Events- $12,430
11. Chris Sprague- 34 Events- $12,215
;D 263. Brett Comincioli-18 Events- $1,074 Missing IL STS & Channahon.
There were 1,740 cash winners in MPO
There were 133 cash winners in FPO
stats provided by DGW on page 12.
If you are a AM and your rating is over 940 turn pro immidietly. You will hang in their just fine, remember its only money. lol
I dont even know why I post this should be obvious.
Quote from: Cannon Boy on January 09, 2007, 09:14:44 PM
If you are a AM and your rating is over 940 turn pro immidietly. You will hang in their just fine, remember its only money. lol
I dont even know why I post this should be obvious.
Neal,
I don't think I could pull this off since I have a five o'clock shadow hours after shaving but I think you could. Start dressing like a girl and play FPO. You have some nice blonde hair for it. You could dominate! >:D
Quote from: CEValkyrie on January 10, 2007, 07:31:19 AM
Quote from: Cannon Boy on January 09, 2007, 09:14:44 PM
If you are a AM and your rating is over 940 turn pro immidietly. You will hang in their just fine, remember its only money. lol
I dont even know why I post this should be obvious.
Neal,
I don't think I could pull this off since I have a five o'clock shadow hours after shaving but I think you could. Start dressing like a girl and play FPO. You have some nice blonde hair for it. You could dominate! >:D
LOL! Emliy Dickinson's bastard daughter?
Quote from: mirth on November 03, 2006, 09:55:48 AM
wow, brett - that is messed up. Can I hope to get payouts to 100% of the Intermediate field at IOS events next year?
I'd like to have some of the kool aid that TD was drinking...
We already do payouts to 100% of the field for amateur divisions. We just expedite the payout process by handling a part of it at registration and calling it a player pack.
Quote from: bruce_brakel on January 10, 2007, 08:39:44 AM
Quote from: mirth on November 03, 2006, 09:55:48 AM
wow, brett - that is messed up. Can I hope to get payouts to 100% of the Intermediate field at IOS events next year?
I'd like to have some of the kool aid that TD was drinking...
We already do payouts to 100% of the field for amateur divisions. We just expedite the payout process by handling a part of it at registration and calling it a player pack.
Mirth is referring to my ealier post of a tournament in which all 9 women that competed in FPO cashed.
http://www.pdga.com/tournament/tournament_results.php?TournID=5530
Seriously. Where are these tournaments & why ate they adding this much $ to microdivsions? I'd have signed up for Pro a long time ago. :D
The bottom payout in that FPO division was shooting 860-870 rounds!!! Maybe I should go pro.
Quote from: CEValkyrie on January 09, 2007, 07:13:11 PM
Just another reason disc golf will not grow and the pro fields will not get bigger.
Why are sponsorships that are hard to find being added to microdivisions? Disc golf will never grow at the pro level if this continues. This is like starting the WNBA before the NBA.
10. Cale Leivaska- 36 Events - $13,277
1. Des Reading- 23 Events- $12,430
11. Chris Sprague- 34 Events- $12,215
;D 263. Brett Comincioli-18 Events- $1,074 Missing IL STS & Channahon.
There were 1,740 cash winners in MPO
There were 133 cash winners in FPO
stats provided by DGW on page 12.
WOW!! Almost makes me want to get de-wanged :Whaxatk:
Quote from: Tenny Schimo on January 10, 2007, 12:27:26 PM
Quote from: CEValkyrie on January 09, 2007, 07:13:11 PM
Just another reason disc golf will not grow and the pro fields will not get bigger.
Why are sponsorships that are hard to find being added to microdivisions? Disc golf will never grow at the pro level if this continues. This is like starting the WNBA before the NBA.
10. Cale Leivaska- 36 Events - $13,277
1. Des Reading- 23 Events- $12,430
11. Chris Sprague- 34 Events- $12,215
;D 263. Brett Comincioli-18 Events- $1,074 Missing IL STS & Channahon.
There were 1,740 cash winners in MPO
There were 133 cash winners in FPO
stats provided by DGW on page 12.
WOW!! Almost makes me want to get de-wanged :Whaxatk:
You may want to capitalize the ALMOST.
There are two theories that I know of that are the reasoning behind sponsoring micro divisions. I do not support either one as a TD but thought I'd explain. The first is the thinking that sponsorship will build a division to critical mass whereby it won't need artificial support anymore. For example, if you were to get a large turn out of women at all disc golf events then you will continue to get the turn out. It's the sponsorship that some TDs think is needed to reach the critical mass point. The other is the "Everyone should come out and play" attitude that somehow turns to "I need to get everyone out to play". These TDs see that only a few women are coming to "their" events and they want to attract more because they think they're missing something or not doing enough of something. They just don't realize that there aren't that many disc golf tournament playing women. And ALL of the men that play disc golf are responsible for that! ;)
Having said that I do have to say that I disagree with Brett about this sponsorship holding back disc golf. It's such a small amount of money that no matter what you'd do with it it wouldn't change how fast disc golf is growing.
The other reason that divisions like FPO and Masters are sponsored is to expand the population base demographically. The money for large PDGA purses is going to come from advertisers. Advertisers want a good demographic base when paying for eyeballs. Ideally they want the eyeballs that a) have cash to spend and b) control where it goes. What demographics are those? You got it, those with money tend to be older and those that control it tend to be the women. ;)
Quote from: Jon Brakel on January 10, 2007, 01:08:58 PM
Having said that I do have to say that I disagree with Brett about this sponsorship holding back disc golf. It's such a small amount of money that no matter what you'd do with it it wouldn't change how fast disc golf is growing.
In my mind it isn't the $ as much as the effort put into the events. I'd much rather have the Peoria Open than the USWDGC. As Brett said, WNBA before NBA?
The only way we could grow the sport any faster would be to abolish pro divisions altogether, and spend the money we'd save buying courses and temporary baskets for middle schools. The only sport I know of that intentionally set out to grow the sport to create a demographic that would support a pro league on TV is USA soccer. They quit throwing money at their pro league in the mid 80s and spent ten years throwing money at kids' soccer. They were successful. They've just turned the corner from producing their own tv shows and buying time on ESPN to selling the rights to ESPN and taking home an eight figure paycheck.
But disc golf is growing at 15% per year and already has plenty of growing pains. It does not need to grow any faster.
I gotta think that any sponsorship is good. More money is more money. Yeah! However, directed sponsorships are sort of like Ladies Night at the old bar or bowling alley. sponsors and bar owners (or TD's) do this for two completely opposite reasons. One politically correct and one , well, not so PC
1. quasi title nine- we feel we ought to do something to make up for all the bad things we have done to women over the years and give them an opportunity to play, even if it means spreading money unevenly. Well meaning pandering.
2. hey baby you wanna...- eye candy at the bar brings in more guys who are allegedly spending money. I guess the same goes for disc golf. Certainly, if a hypothetical sports network wanted to show some disc golf action they could show Barry and Ken etc making incredible shots. Or they could show Angela, who is a little better looking than Barry and Ken, making some pretty darn good shots. Hey, which one would draw a bigger audience? less well meaning pandering.
If I recall, didn't a past Widdershins offer females to play for free? I will assume that we were either using model 1 above or model 3 below...
3. Honey, if I get to play, you can play for free - give a break to wives, girlfriends, daughters, moms etc so we don't feel so guilty spending so much time away from the nest throwing plastic circles.
That being said, I understand how discouraging it has to be for middle of the road pros, who are way better than most of us mortals (ok sub mortals in my case) and wind up losing money in this game. That's why I see touring pros as the only ones who should do it. I think everybody else should play a ratings based upper Am division and continue to cache plastic they don't need. Then let any player who either does well at a qualifying tournament or has a high enough rating, enter a handful of touring events to test their mettle. It beats the discouragement. The only other way to consider non-touring pros as pros would be to compare them to club pros with regular golf. Good enough to compete with the big boys once in a while but not banging their heads against the wall week in and week out. Of course, Brett, I think you are better off than those guys. You are not giving lessons to some disinterested kid or hacker club member. You get to play way more than those guys get to play.
My motive for the Widdershins a couple years ago was none of the categories. I simply wanted to provide an opportunity for women and girls who may play, but never have played in a tournament, to see what they thought of competitive play. That, and to see how they liked playing in 60MPH wind gusts! ;)
Quote from: Jon Brakel on January 10, 2007, 01:08:58 PM
Small amounts of $, yes. However, add that up for 700+ events across the country and that's quite a bit. I would like to know how much money a year is being added to FPO & MPM. I'm sure you could run another USDGC or maybe 2.
If you don't have a product to sell and that product being professional disc golf, it will never happen. When the sports "Michael Jordan" of disc golf has to cut back on events there is a problem. It's sad to see top players with talent struggle to make ends meet when they are just giving away money to microdivsions.
Bruce, you theory on abolishing pro divisions is just plain ridiculous. Saving money by not having a pro divisions?
Ok, not to bash the accomplishments of the ladies at any playing level, but have you noticed how EVERY sport goes completely NUTS when there is a woman that does well? First they tried looks before ability, and you wound up with Anna Kournakova. Now she has been replaced by Maria Sharapova because Sharapova can play. Look at Michelle Wie or Annika Sorenstam in golf. Look at Danica Patrick in IRL racing (after Sarah Fisher pretty much flopped).
The disgusting thing? They start to flaunt the looks of the women. Is that right? Is that what attracts people to the sport? I'm afraid that it does somewhat, but it shouldn't. It's that mechanic that all these sports and sports shows try to focus on to get more males to tune in. You throw more money at the women's division to get more women to show up and participate and hope that one of them that plays well looks good. It's a disgusting mindset.
I'm not going after you mirth - I want to clarify that now. I also can't go after the tournament that was posted because I can't get inside the head of the TD to know what they were thinking. Would I throw money at the women's division? Yes. It would be a proportional amount of what I throw at the men's division. That's the way it should be.
I thoroughly enjoyed the clinic that I ran for 2nd-5th graders and then the tournament for middle schoolers. I got to see 180 kids at those 2 events combined go out there and have FUN. I love the idea of promoting the sport to kids. Both sides of the spectrum need to be supported - the kids and the pros. If you were into any particular professional sport you probably had a childhood favorite team and/or player. Without the pros to look up to and set the example, a lot of the time the kids don't know how to respect the sport when they start to grow older.
I personally think this sport is less than 10 years away from finding some bigger named sponsors to start having bigger payouts at the national tournaments. That's going to be the stuff that starts to attract the cameras (why is professional domino's on ESPN? the prize money involved!)
Respect the sport, teach the sport, support the sport, and let it continue to grow.
its all good scott. the widdershins in 2005 had a donated 1st place trophy and donated CTPs from Gateway. The only real money that went into having the 10 or so gals play free (other women did play but IIRC kelsey and maybe one or two others played mens rec) was the cost of their players' packs.
Bruce's argument is academic. However, academically speaking disc golf doesn't have "pros" and doesn't have a pro division. Even if you add all the money added to the micro divisions disc golf wouldn't have any pros. I wouldn't consider anyone playing a sport a "pro" until they can make more money traveling and playing their sport than they could make sitting behind a monitor all day. They might be very good, but they aren't a professional.
I don't see a path to a real pro division unless or until our sport isn't free. It is why we keep having growing pains. It is why some people don't want the sport in their parks. We'll have real pros once many companies are making money from our sport. I don't think we'll reach that critical mass playing par 3 golf in free parks.
If disc golf makes it to a big pro level sport it isn't going to look so much like it did in the 1970's. It will be like comparing present day NFL to football before the forward pass. You gotta get money to make money...and you gotta make a lot of money to support a professional division.
oh - and bruce's pro soccer analogy makes sense to me. i had never heard of soccer before my mom signed me up for KASL soccer in the 80s. had I stuck with it I'm sure I would have been a pro soccer fan when I was in high school.
yeah, brett, I can understand how not having a pro cash payout division could save the organization money in the long term. after having run tournaments you should be able to see that pretty easily too...
I don't think anybody's saying that's the cure for the pdga, big $ sponsorship money, and helping touring pros make a living.
Quote from: stpitner on January 10, 2007, 08:05:06 PM
I personally think this sport is less than 10 years away from finding some bigger named sponsors to start having bigger payouts at the national tournaments. That's going to be the stuff that starts to attract the cameras (why is professional domino's on ESPN? the prize money involved!)
I might think you are right, but I've also heard that for almost 30 years. Professional Domino's isn't on ESPN because of the prize money. It's on because someone is paying for the commercials.
Actually, professional dominoes, Scrabble and other "What-the?" events like that are on ESPN because they are paying ESPN for the air time. This is the TVland equivalent of vanity publishing. This is how Disc Golf TV got on TV a few years ago. It is how infomercials get on TV. It is the same thing.
Quote from: Jon Brakel on January 10, 2007, 08:19:36 PM
Bruce's argument is academic. However, academically speaking disc golf doesn't have "pros" and doesn't have a pro division. Even if you add all the money added to the micro divisions disc golf wouldn't have any pros. I wouldn't consider anyone playing a sport a "pro" until they can make more money traveling and playing their sport than they could make sitting behind a monitor all day. They might be very good, but they aren't a professional.
I don't see a path to a real pro division unless or until our sport isn't free. It is why we keep having growing pains. It is why some people don't want the sport in their parks. We'll have real pros once many companies are making money from our sport. I don't think we'll reach that critical mass playing par 3 golf in free parks.
If disc golf makes it to a big pro level sport it isn't going to look so much like it did in the 1970's. It will be like comparing present day NFL to football before the forward pass. You gotta get money to make money...and you gotta make a lot of money to support a professional division.
Just for arguments sake:
Your comments regarding professional don't hold up, are NFL referees professional? I would say that most if not all of them make more at their day jobs than moonlighting on the weekends. Are they any less professional than the umpires for other sports, who are full time?
Free play has seemed to work pretty well for baseball, football, tennis, basketball, and hockey. Think those sports would do better if we made all park systems pay to play? One doesn't have anything to do with the other. There are companies that make money from our sport, Innova, Discraft, DGA, Gateway, the makers of quadshocks, and Revolution to name a few. I believe the more free courses that are available, the more that the sport will grow. It is a perception issue regarding the type of people that throw a Frisbee that goes back to the 70s, among many other issues, which impedes the growth of disc golf. Unfortunately there are some people out there today which still believe the perception is the reality.
More courses, more discs and baskets sold. Companies are starting to market shoes and clothes specifically to the disc golf crowd. More players, more money, limiting the number of players will decrease the overall interest and hurt the sport not help the sport.
Finally, how can you compare disc golf to football? Wouldn't a disc golf to golf comparison be more reasonable? How much has the actual game of golf changed? You hit a round ball into a hole with a specially made stick. The technology has changed but the basic tenets of the game have remained the same.
Good counterpoints. I don't advocate NOT getting more free courses. I love free courses. But there's only so much land and everyone wants a say in how it gets used. I still don't think that par 3 golf will be the venue where professionals will play for professional purses.
Besides professional part-time refs there are part-time professional ball golfers. But they are playing a pro sport in a pro division for a pro purse. The full-time ball golfers all make more money than a guy sitting behind a monitor all day.
The same types of perceptions exist with snow boarding and skate boarding. Those perceptions have not kept those sports from having real pros making real money.
I wasn't comparing the technology of the sport of disc golf to football. I think the courses are going to change...if we're going to see big time pros anytime. But I don't think the little courses will go away, we'll still have our little neighborhood courses to play on.
I have been doing this for the past few years after the final ratings update of the year. There has been an increase in the number of pros playing over the past few years.
2006 IL Tournies
263 pro players at 15 events.
103 of those players were rated 955 or below (39% of field)
9 of those cashed (3% of the field)
2005 IL Tournies
191 pro players at 14 events.
65 of those were rated 955 or below (34% of field)
11 of those cashed (6% cashed)
2004 IL Tournies
179 pro players at 13 events
48 of those were rated 955 or below (27% of field)
5 of those 955 or below players cashed (3% cashed)