After meeting with the Lake County Forest Preserve today it's very clear what Parks & Officials say about disc golf. It's very clear becasue in front of me I have a copy of comments from every park district in Lake County that has a course. It's up to US to police each other. If you want more courses please help.
Here are some comments.
Some vandalism.
Ocassional stolen baskets.
Vandalism has increases since installing a course.
Beer comsumption.
Litter
Profanity
Urinating in public.
*I'm actually quite surprised to see dope usage was not commented on at all*
I always pick up trash if I see it, you should too :P
Seriously though, there are usually garbage cans that I will pass during the remainder of the round to dispose the trash.
First- Brett, thanks for your efforts in this regard. I think Tom was supposed to be at the meeting as well. Thanks to Tom and any other club members who went there to support disc golf.
It seems the concerns they have are similar to concerns they would have over any use of public lands. When you build a pool, baseball, soccer field, tennis court, day camp nature museum, whatever...you will have issues with litter, beer, vandalism noise etc. You bring more people to a facility and you get more stuff happening. It seems like their concerns are more over whether the land should be opened up at all as opposed to whether disc golf is a good or bad idea. It seems we need to help them focus on whether the land should be used at all and how disc golf is less invasive than other choices. It may be they simply want to preserve the land and don't want to do anything. If that's the case you are right. It will be slim to no chance. However, if they can be persuaded to open the land to an appropriate use we may be able to demonstrate that disc golf is the most appropriate use. I take it that your vision is that disc golf in the Lake County Forest Preserve would be more like Highbridge than like Fairfield. What is their vision? It should be A-tier not the parking lot at a Dead concert. They need to see Barry Schultz, not a shirtless kid with a can of beer and a beat up Cyclone. If Rockford weren't so far, I would say invite them to see the advance/pro day there.
QuoteIt seems the concerns they have are similar to concerns they would have over any use of public lands. When you build a pool, baseball, soccer field, tennis court, day camp nature museum, whatever...you will have issues with litter, beer, vandalism noise etc. You bring more people to a facility and you get more stuff happening. It seems like their concerns are more over whether the land should be opened up at all as opposed to whether disc golf is a good or bad idea. It seems we need to help them focus on whether the land should be used at all and how disc golf is less invasive than other choices. It may be they simply want to preserve the land and don't want to do anything. If that's the case you are right. It will be slim to no chance. However, if they can be persuaded to open the land to an appropriate use we may be able to demonstrate that disc golf is the most appropriate use. I take it that your vision is that disc golf in the Lake County Forest Preserve would be more like Highbridge than like Fairfield. What is their vision? It should be A-tier not the parking lot at a Dead concert. They need to see Barry Schultz, not a shirtless kid with a can of beer and a beat up Cyclone. If Rockford weren't so far, I would say invite them to see the advance/pro day there.
you hit the nail on the head - there will always be a segment of idiots within any population. disc golf is no different.
This is part of the problem but not all of the problem with the Forest Preserve. When disc golf is brought up this is what Park Districts think & say about disc golf.
Even though I agree on many of the aspects above when soccer is mention or baseball or other park activities, usually the demographic of drunken mid teens to mid 20 year olds don't come to mind. Every report mentioned this when talking about disc golf.
Brett - contact the president of the Quad City crew. the park districts that he deals with are begging to have courses to installed in their parks and for good reasons. he offered to coordinate a meeting of the minds with rockfords park district and thiers. i am sure he'd extend that same courtesy to you and lake forest. also, through the contacts i have made with rockfords park district and the success of last years tournament i am sure that the RPD would have nothing but good to say about the sport.
Quote from: Chainmeister on July 06, 2006, 01:50:58 PM
It should be A-tier not the parking lot at a Dead concert. They need to see Barry Schultz, not a shirtless kid with a can of beer and a beat up Cyclone. If Rockford weren't so far, I would say invite them to see the advance/pro day there.
Good point here. Maybe an invitation to Park Directors to the Club Invitational? If they see the support that club members can give to an event, it might help sway their minds.
Quote from: Drathe on July 06, 2006, 02:12:30 PM
Maybe an invitation to Park Directors to the Club Invitational? If they see the support that club members can give to an event, it might help sway their minds.
I went to the Invitational last year. It was great fun and I hope to go again this year. That was a fun fun day of hooky and disc golf. Its a bit relaxed for the image I think we need to project. Seeing nearly one hundred 900+ rated players at an IOS is what I was imagining. Maybe have them follow a group of masters with Bruce, Tom, Adrian Sr. etc.
QuoteMaybe have them follow a group of masters with Bruce, Tom, Adrian Sr. etc.
yup, if they are seeing young and old, men and women, enjoying the sport on a professional level with professinoal leadership like bruce and yourself that stigma of beer drinking yahoos will be turned upside down.
another option is not asking for their money and raising it yourself. if you come to them with 6 grand it is going to show them that you're more serious than they thought you were, and at that point they may match your dollars. and maybe they wont, but they'll probably be more willing to give you the land to work with.
Quote from: Chainmeister on July 06, 2006, 01:50:58 PM
First- Brett, thanks for your efforts in this regard. I think Tom was supposed to be at the meeting as well. Thanks to Tom and any other club members who went there to support disc golf.
It seems the concerns they have are similar to concerns they would have over any use of public lands. When you build a pool, baseball, soccer field, tennis court, day camp nature museum, whatever...you will have issues with litter, beer, vandalism noise etc. You bring more people to a facility and you get more stuff happening. It seems like their concerns are more over whether the land should be opened up at all as opposed to whether disc golf is a good or bad idea. It seems we need to help them focus on whether the land should be used at all and how disc golf is less invasive than other choices. It may be they simply want to preserve the land and don't want to do anything. If that's the case you are right. It will be slim to no chance. However, if they can be persuaded to open the land to an appropriate use we may be able to demonstrate that disc golf is the most appropriate use. I take it that your vision is that disc golf in the Lake County Forest Preserve would be more like Highbridge than like Fairfield. What is their vision? It should be A-tier not the parking lot at a Dead concert. They need to see Barry Schultz, not a shirtless kid with a can of beer and a beat up Cyclone. If Rockford weren't so far, I would say invite them to see the advance/pro day there.
Quote from: whofarted on July 06, 2006, 01:53:15 PM
QuoteIt seems the concerns they have are similar to concerns they would have over any use of public lands. When you build a pool, baseball, soccer field, tennis court, day camp nature museum, whatever...you will have issues with litter, beer, vandalism noise etc. You bring more people to a facility and you get more stuff happening. It seems like their concerns are more over whether the land should be opened up at all as opposed to whether disc golf is a good or bad idea. It seems we need to help them focus on whether the land should be used at all and how disc golf is less invasive than other choices. It may be they simply want to preserve the land and don't want to do anything. If that's the case you are right. It will be slim to no chance. However, if they can be persuaded to open the land to an appropriate use we may be able to demonstrate that disc golf is the most appropriate use. I take it that your vision is that disc golf in the Lake County Forest Preserve would be more like Highbridge than like Fairfield. What is their vision? It should be A-tier not the parking lot at a Dead concert. They need to see Barry Schultz, not a shirtless kid with a can of beer and a beat up Cyclone. If Rockford weren't so far, I would say invite them to see the advance/pro day there.
you hit the nail on the head - there will always be a segment of idiots within any population. disc golf is no different.
do u guys really think that ur gonna commonly see severely intoxicated obnoxious people at soccer and baseball games in public parks?? sure there are occasionaly idiots everywhere, but they are WAY more common in disc golf. the only way to change this is to take responsibility for ourselves. don't drink beer or do drugs on the course. it seems pretty simple, but very few of u out there seem to be willing to do it. its getting very frustrating because its really holding the sport down..............
Quote from: whofarted on July 06, 2006, 02:36:45 PM
another option is not asking for their money and raising it yourself. if you come to them with 6 grand it is going to show them that you're more serious than they thought you were, and at that point they may match your dollars. and maybe they wont, but they'll probably be more willing to give you the land to work with.
Money is a non issue with the Forest Preserve. They purchased $30,000 of playground equimpent to add on to the $100,000 worth of equipment they already have in place. The $30,000 to $90,000 for a course which was in their study was a non issue.
Quotedo u guys really think that ur gonna commonly see severely intoxicated obnoxious people at soccer and baseball games in public parks?? sure there are occasionaly idiots everywhere, but they are WAY more common in disc golf. the only way to change this is to take responsibility for ourselves. don't drink beer or do drugs on the course. it seems pretty simple, but very few of u out there seem to be willing to do it. its getting very frustrating because its really holding the sport down..............
getting more new people to play and those behaivors become more and more discreet. if the park is filled with four people on every hole actually playing the sport then people wont be taking longs breaks at the park bench or casually walking with a beer through the park.
QuoteMoney is a non issue with the Forest Preserve. They purchased $30,000 of playground equimpent to add on to the $100,000 worth of equipment they already have in place. The $30,000 to $90,000 for a course which was in their study was a non issue.
so thier only complaint is the image of the sport?
Quote from: whofarted on July 06, 2006, 08:17:54 PM
getting more new people to play and those behaivors become more and more discreet. if the park is filled with four people on every hole actually playing the sport then people wont be taking longs breaks at the park bench or casually walking with a beer through the park.
so thier only complaint is the image of the sport?
#1 If that were the case Fairfield would be the most well kept course on the planet. It has hundreds of players playing it daily.
Here is a quote from the Round Lake Park District.
Problems? "Beer consumption, people tend to drink when they play and leave their cans on the course. The garbage cans are overflowing with beer cans every Monday during the season."
#2 No. It was mentioned on the other topic in the club members section with 1 other reason.
Quote#1 If that were the case Fairfield would be the most well kept course on the planet. It has hundreds of players playing it daily.
maybe that was a bad example, but somehow skateboarding graduated to something acceptable to all so hopefully disc golf will take that step too.
What about suggesting a "Pay-to-Play" course. That should keep most of the rif-raf out.
pay to play in the LCFP would only work for nonresidents of lake county. by law or policy or whatever, if you hold a DL w/a lake county address on it you & everyone in your car gets in for free.
Quote from: mirth on July 07, 2006, 07:48:05 AM
pay to play in the LCFP would only work for nonresidents of lake county. by law or policy or whatever, if you hold a DL w/a lake county address on it you & everyone in your car gets in for free.
Why is this so? If Lake County had a public ball golf course wouldnt' residents still have to pay? They may get a break on the price, but they would still have to pay. No?
Quote from: whofarted on July 07, 2006, 05:11:14 AM
Quote#1 If that were the case Fairfield would be the most well kept course on the planet. It has hundreds of players playing it daily.
maybe that was a bad example, but somehow skateboarding graduated to something acceptable to all so hopefully disc golf will take that step too.
Skateboarding did not become socially acceptable until it was on tv for several years. My brother helped get several skate parks installed in the southern suburbs and the local govt didn't give them the time of day until the xgames came around. Until we get serious about our image and policing that image, we won't get any further. Everyone here seems serious about this, but then I hear joking stories about who was drunk at the tournament and that seems to be OK. We all play with or near people that drink every time they go out on the course and don't say anything (as a fairfield local, I am probably more guilty of this than most). When someone shows up to a tournament drunk, it shouldn't be a joke, it should be a dq. When someone shows up to leagues with beer, they shouldn't be allowed to play. Until we are all ready to be this strict (and honestly, a lot of people are not), the conservative folks who run the park districts of the world will always look down at us over a garbage can full of beercans. It had to become "uncool" in skating to be a vandal or criminal so that sport was recognized, we have to do the same.
Quote from: Chainmeister on July 07, 2006, 08:15:11 AM
Quote from: mirth on July 07, 2006, 07:48:05 AM
pay to play in the LCFP would only work for nonresidents of lake county. by law or policy or whatever, if you hold a DL w/a lake county address on it you & everyone in your car gets in for free.
Why is this so? If Lake County had a public ball golf course wouldnt' residents still have to pay? They may get a break on the price, but they would still have to pay. No?
The forest preserve does own public golf courses and you do have to pay to play whether you are a redisdent or not. So I do not think this is correct. You also have to pay to use certain things at Independance Grove.
I personally feel that every sport/recreation has problems. The issue is how those problems are dealt with. If disc golf wants to be taken more seriously disc golfers to to act more serious/responsible.
I have been involved in a few of them such as Skatebording, Street/Freestyle bike riding(no idea what they call it now), and paintball. They all have the same issues. But the perception of them has changed. Mostly due to people being about the sport and not the social aspects of the sport. Those are kept more discret. Until the outward perception of disc golf changes we will be contiuned to be viewed as we are now. And only those who play can change it.
We will always have people that drink. Everything in life has people that drink. But do we have to be loud and vulgar when we drink. Drinking in almost all public parks it AGAINST the LAW!!! I am not saying I have a problem with it or that it is wrong. But the people who control the land we use do have a problem with it. We could at least be discret about it.
Do we have to insist on leaving beer bottles and cans in places on the course other than trash cans? No matter how many trash cans there are. Littering!
Do disc golfers have to leave their shoes and socks all over the course? Littering
Do disc golfers have to walk through the woods tearing down trees and branches? Vandalism!
These are some of the things that are the negitives of Disc Golf in our area. This is direct feedback from park districts that have disc golf courses on there property. No one is making this stuff up.
Please understand. Perception is reality!!!
Lake County Serves alcohol at all of there Golf Courses..
...Lake County employs officers to patrol their property for unlawfulness.
...if drinking is prohibited then individuals breaking the law are resonsible for there actions.
...
Here are some comments.
Some vandalism.
Ocassional stolen baskets.
Vandalism has increases since installing a course.
Beer comsumption.
Litter
Profanity
Urinating in public.
My comments to this is.. Do a Better Job...Park Districts and Forest Preserves employees are paid to serve the Public...We pay Taxes and will pay taxes till we die and some of us after we die. Quit Bitching and do your job.
Employ people that want to contribute to disc golf... Thats right hire someone that will take care of the course as well as the site..
I just played Sand Pointe Resort in WI and The only trash on the whole course was a broken down old car...24 holes immaculate condition
1 mans passion...
Quit Bitchin and get to work LCFP !
Any course LCFP does will have a Restroom and a Parking Lot ETC. But will likely be somewhere remote.. Antioch Wadsworth
Remember also that Lake County has two or three Sites devoted just for Dogs.. Canine Creatures That have never paid taxes ever.
Dogs do not pay Taxes...and by law are considered personal property just like your discs....
Now last time I checked How many disc golfers are deficating in public ? Dogs Urinate in Public, They Bark, But they dont pay taxes !
LCFP will plant a Course soon ....I hope they choose the Championship route and not a nine holer to shut the disc community up.
except the car is part of the course & not trash.
Then the Aviar I lost on #5 would qualify as trash.
Quote from: Mangler on July 07, 2006, 09:18:37 PM
Any course LCFP does will have a Restroom and a Parking Lot ETC. But will likely be somewhere remote.. Antioch Wadsworth
Remember also that Lake County has two or three Sites devoted just for Dogs.. Canine Creatures That have never paid taxes ever.
Dogs do not pay Taxes...and by law are considered personal property just like your discs....
Now last time I checked How many disc golfers are deficating in public ? Dogs Urinate in Public, They Bark, But they dont pay taxes !
LCFP will plant a Course soon ....I hope they choose the Championship route and not a nine holer to shut the disc community up.
i'm still waiting for you to tell us how many disc golfers you found deficating the last time you checked, but its definitely not more than 1/2 the number of those bastard no tax-paying dogs that have been getting away with it for years!
B.C. Please forgive, all due respect.
it is not ours to police. All individuals are responsible how they manage their freedom.
I can not and in most cases not make an issue if some one is passivley non agressivley violating the law.
Disc Golf is far and away one of the best investments a community can make.
There are not many activities that delever like this sport.. It appeals to everyone from 5 years old and up...
If Disc Golf didnt delever Then Why dont they pull the courses ?
...because people wont drive 40 plus miles to go to a water park or fish, play in the sand, see a bird sanctuary, ride around in a rowboat, rollerblade, picnic with bees and load music.. walk your dog and watch it dump than pick it up in a ace harware bag. ride a bike.
DG Players trek far and wide to enjoy their sport ! Be Proud.
If you need to break the rules a little bit Than why not have a place to go where you can do it...
People do not smoke or drink because of Disc Golf ... They drink and smoke period it is a fabric of their life.
Disc Golf Saves People it puts people together I dont know of anyone that once they discover the sport craters.. If anyone knows of a disc golf fatality let me know..
When is the Next LCFP Meeting ?
Al,
Maybe this will put it into perspective while you sit back & watch. One day this course may be pulled but who knows.
Here is what the park district is saying about it.
Mundelein Park District "what MPD said"
What are the worst things about running a disc golf course? "Vandalism"
Whare are the maintenance issues? "Upkeep from vandalism"
Do you have any vandalism? "Vandalism has increased at the park since the course was installed."
Other comments? "It seems to be a meeting place for teens. Loitering crowds seem to cause trouble. There have been two baskets stolen, signs stolen, and two garbage cans set on fire."
While searching for very poorly thrown discs at Streamwood I have noticed plenty of "human waste" back in the reeds and what have you. Could this be from disc golfers... you bet, but it could also be from anybody else who uses the park, and that park see a lot of people in a given day. Anytime a PD installs anything into a park no matter what it is it draws more people, more people means more bad stuff. I bet if the same questions were asked about playground equipment the same answers could be given. Who hasn't seen playground equipment with vandelism all over it...NOBODY! It all come down to whether or not the PD actually wants the park to get used by the community or not. What good is a park that nobody goes to.
And another thing the shoes and socks thing, litter, beer any of that could just as easily be the hundreds of different groups of people playing soccer in those parks and not the disc golfers!
Quote from: white_rhino on July 11, 2006, 08:12:41 AM
And another thing the shoes and socks thing, litter, beer any of that could just as easily be the hundreds of different groups of people playing soccer in those parks and not the disc golfers!
yes i suppose it COULD be the soccer players.........but its NOT. i'm not taking a guess here, we all have 2 eyes and 2 ears, and so does the LCFP.
Well from my own two eyes the soccer players at Streamwood are slobs, I pick up after them all the time on the back nine by the baseball diamond. I'm not sayin that Disc Golfers don't do al those bad things, I'm just saying that its not just us. And as far as parks being places for teens to hang.. that's always the case cause they are less likely to get caught drinking or smoking pot, that's every park and forest preserve I've ever been to. Disc Golf course or not people are gonna be scurvey, having a set of chains there just gives them something to do while being scurvey.
obviously people are gonig to drink and smoke whether they are playing golf or not. i'm only concerned about the perception that people have about disc golf. speaking only for the courses that i see in this area, its not a big mystery where the beer cans come from.
i'm not sure what we're arguing about anyways, the problem isn't with the sport of disc golf, its just about policing ourselves and stopping the loud obnoxious kids who are making us all look bad. obviously there are alot of people who truely like the game and don't just use it as an excuse to go do whatever.
Happy Birthday DAN.
This is not about Disc Golfers. This is about the perception people, right now LCFPD, have of Disc Golfers. Not to sound like a broken record but perception is reality. Especially when people do not know you and only hear about you. Getting a disc golf course on LCFPD property is going to be hard enough. If we don't do something to clean up the perception of the sport in our area it will be damn near impossible. I do not care what any of us do in our personal lives. But I do care when it is done on disc golf courses and it affects getting good courses installed or existing courses improved. How many times do I have to hear " Why should we wok on the course when the people who use the course do not take care of it."? They see it as waste of time and resources. Just be responsible and discret when doing things that you know you should not be doing. And PLEASE do not litter. Especially beer cans and bottles.