This is an idea I've been thinking about.
Am IV would be a competitive division for PDGA members rated below 835. We have a few players who would have the right to play in that division if it existed. We could make it seem to exist if those players wanted that. You'd get ratings, PDGA points and PDGA stats, and you'd get a payout based on how well you played against the other Am IV players, but when the TD report went in, it would look like you played Rec Men trophy-only. Because you did. That's our story and we're sticking to it! ;) No, seriously, this is something we could do within the standard format using a trophy-only entry fee and an Am IV only sidebet.
The Am IVs know who they are. I was one once, maybe eight years before ratings were used for anything. I would like to hear from them. If you don't want to out yourself, feel free to log out and post as a guest.
If you are an Am IV, or maybe can see yourself there in a ratings update or two, would you play that division? If I were to lose my right arm, I would, until I shot my way up to Am III. It would be more fun than DFL in some other division every time. Let me know.
I would love that idea. I know I'm rated 842 right now, but that's because the ratings update only included my performance at Lombard, my (essentially) home course. Hopefully I wouldn't stay in Am IV for long, but it would certainly make things more interesting considering I know that I have little to no chance of even placing in the top 15 of rec due to baggers and those that are rated on the top end of the rec cut-off.
Plus this would create a more friendly environment for people that are new and want to try out a tournament.
I'm a little confused on how it would work for trophy only + sidebet. Sidebet uses your player pack, does it not? I don't mind doing full entry fee, but I don't know about other AM IV's.
Will you only allow PDGA members with an established rating to play? I would just fear a non-PDGA member coming in and playing as a bagger winning by an easy 8-10 strokes (which may or may not have placed in the payouts in rec). With fewer people rated that low paying the full entry fee, it might get REALLY frustrating.
Trophy-only + sidebet means that the sidebet would be an added cost. So you would pay for trophy-only, get your player pack, and then if you wanted in on the Am IV payout, you'd also pay the difference between trophy-only and full fee, whatever that is for 2007 at our tournaments. By doing it this way, there is nothing to report on the TD report that would require X-tier approval but an Am IV would get the same tournament experience as a Rec or Int player: a player pack, CTPs, a payout, trophies, rated rounds, etc.
Yes, we would limit participation to sub-835 rated players. We would put first-time tournament players in Rec and tell them that if they think they'd rather play Am IV, they should join and get a rating. Depending on when the rating updates occur, we might let a player in after he joined, but before he had a rating, if he had proved he belonged there. This would be something special for those PDGA members who aren't really competitive in Rec but are paying their PDGA dues and proudly displaying an Am IV rating at pdga.com.
On the TD report it would show you played rec trophy-only. The payout for Am IV would be handled as a sidebet to avoid a funky looking, flag waving TD report. If you won, you'd have an Am IV trophy to prove otherwise!
I have two motivations for doing this that kind of blend together: when I look at our player base, there are a lot of nice people I'd like to see playing more of our tournaments who are Am IV rated. They are paying dues to the PDGA and not really getting full value back, because the PDGA won't acknowledge they exist. It took two or three years of me and one or two other tournament directors offering trophy-only options for the PDGA to see the value of that to the PDGA. I think we could grow the sport faster and deeper if we looked to see if there is an untapped market here. So locally, it seems like the right thing to do for Am IV rated players if it is something they want. Nationally or internationally, it is probably the right thing for the PDGA to do if it wants to grow it membership base.
I don't think this takes anything away from the rec division. Most of our Am IV players are also our trophy-only players. Currently they are mostly opting out of donating to the rec payout. To me it just seems to be a right thing to do that takes nothing away from anyone but gives lower skilled players a reason to join the PDGA and play tournaments.
Rock on then :) I'd be all for it! It wouldn't make me feel as bad about being on the last card hehe.
Now watch, the ratings update will come out and I'll be 826 or something lol. Guess that will mean that I need to play in another tournament this year to keep dragging it down :)
Quote from: bruce_brakel on August 30, 2006, 05:12:06 PM
The Am IVs know who they are.
Yeah, they do :rolleyes:
Its an intriguing idea. However,since I am very, very, very rarely ever competing for anything other than the occassional CTP, its nice to play with better players. Would AM IV's be playing in their own ghetto or would they be intermixed with other rec players in the first round and then just likely to find each other for the second?
Quote from: Chainmeister on August 30, 2006, 08:32:23 PM
Quote from: bruce_brakel on August 30, 2006, 05:12:06 PM
The Am IVs know who they are.
Yeah, they do :rolleyes:
Its an intriguing idea. However,since I am very, very, very rarely ever competing for anything other than the occassional CTP, its nice to play with better players. Would AM IV's be playing in their own ghetto or would they be intermixed with other rec players in the first round and then just likely to find each other for the second?
The answer to that is, I don't know. It depends on how much Jon is willing to rock the boat. 804.06B has a "should" rather than a "must" so there would be TD discretion there. I would lean toward keeping them together as their own division. I think the competition within the group will do as much to improve your game as playing one round against a player rated 860 or 870 would. Competition against similarly skilled players does wonders for the game, moreso than getting your butt kicked, in my opinion, but your experience may be different. You'd be competitive in this division. You'd be just as competitive in this division as I am in Advanced: sometimes getting prizes, once in a blue moon winning.
I believe I would fall into this category and I would sidebet
I think 874 is too high a rating for rec. Many of the rec. players near the top threshold have been playing for many years, know all the terminology and disc flight characteristics, and have a great deal of tournament experience. This, to me, is beyond "recreational" and should fairly be called "intermediate". Therefore, I support the AMIV idea.
Regarding first tournament players, when I played competitive raquetball the tournaments offered a "novice" division for first timers. Whatever your club rating, in your first tournament, and only in your first tournament, you could play novice. This allowed the player to get their feet wet in a relaxed environment. Referees would explain rulings, protocol and etiquette in detail to prepare the player for future events. Something similar could be implemented in disc golf by setting up a novice division and asking advanced players, who would otherwise be ineligible to play that day, to volunteer to play with each group for no score.
Another thought grows out of the AMIV idea. When Gary runs non-santioned events he often includes an "am. master" division for older folk who would otherwise play rec. or int. In santioned events, he often offers awards to top masters playing int. To me, am. master is a good idea. There seem to be quite a few of us graybeards playing rec. and int. because we might not be competitive in adv. masters, but might enjoy playing with people their own age. If you are adding phony divisions, am. master might be one to consider.
Finally, regarding stpitner's comment about not being able to finish top 15 due to baggers, in a series like the IOS are the non-PDGA regulars reviewed for appropriate placement? These people still get round ratings, are their "pseudo-ratings" ever calculated?
Proudly being one of the lowest rated men out there, here's my take. I play trophy-only for two reasons. a) it's cheaper and I really don't need more discs and b) I probably won't cash anyway.
One issue I see with MA4 is that it would most likely be a micro-division.
| Tournament | Number of PDGA members < 825 |
| Kenosha | 8 |
| Lombard | 1 |
| Crystal Lake | 5 |
| Rockford | 5 |
| Streamwood | 2 |
I suppose if you build it, they will come. I know after finishing last in my first tournament, I wasn't to eager to get out for another tournament. This doubly so, since it was unsanctioned, and hearing wind of guys playing both days. What were they doing playing down!?! Very disheartening to see the top Novice/Rec scores throwing under par for both rounds.
First time players are not going to commit $50 to join the PDGA so they can play in the bottom division. I think some creativity here is going to be required to let those that belong in MA4 into MA4 w/o a PDGA #.
Quote from: kk on August 31, 2006, 09:49:12 AM
Finally, regarding stpitner's comment about not being able to finish top 15 due to baggers, in a series like the IOS are the non-PDGA regulars reviewed for appropriate placement? These people still get round ratings, are their "pseudo-ratings" ever calculated?
If someone could find the thread that was discussing what is going to happen in regards to those players, yes, there is some investigation done. However, it takes affect at the same time a regular PDGA update would happen, correct? There was an email address that someone could send a message to the "little elves" that were running around checking scores for baggers on non-pdga members. That might be something worthwhile to do. The baggers might get a couple extra rounds in, but then after an update, hopefully they would be told they have to move up.
I think Mike makes a good point that it could be a very small division even with big turnouts at tournaments. I might or might not take the sidebet and play this division so I could say I win something once in a while. However, its more about the play than winning. If I shoot a 780 round and win a disc in AM IV who cares? If I have an 830 round and get nothing in rec I am thrilled. Mike and Scott are good guys, just put me in a group with them and we can take pride in beating each other.
bah i'd get sick of you two in a heartbeat :P just kidding, but seriously, there are more than just the 3 of us. (I hope you don't mind me calling your name out) but Diana has played in the rec men division a number of times, so she would be qualified to get in on the AMIV. It probably would be a micro division every now and then, but you have to start somewhere. Plus we would all like to be able to get over that 825 rating hump someday (or at least, I would!) so the people in it would hopefully always be changing.
I see more Am IVs on the courses than I see Am Is. When I ask them if they play tournaments they say, "No. We aren't good enough." So it is possible that the players to fill this division exist, but they don't have tournaments to play. Illinois actually has 20 Am IV rated men right now. Wisconsin too. They exist. They don't play a lot of tournaments.
There is a ratings update at the end of September. If you want to suggest a non-member who should be reviewed for baggerbumping, send e-mail to elves "at" brasscash.com. Use the @ for "at". I've heard bots steal e-mail addresses and spam them if they are typed normally.
Quote from: bruce_brakel on August 31, 2006, 12:50:28 PM
I've heard bots steal e-mail addresses and spam them if they are typed normally.
Thread drift, but in response to Bruce...
This is true, although usually it happens on higher traffic sites (eg. eBay). But they go to lots of other sites too. I actually tested this out on eBay once. I have an email address that is ONLY listed on the auction listings and is not registered with eBay as my primary email to have official ebay-related emails sent to. Thus far I have received 5 spoof emails to that account (keep in mind I use this email on NOTHING but the face of some of my auctions) where they are trying to steal my password and account information (clicking on the link in the bad email sending me to a non-eBay site that is made to look like eBay).
If you really don't want the address to be prone to bots stealing your addy, format it as the following:
elves AT brasscash DOT com
The bots more than likely will not pick that up as they do a pattern match to look for text-@ symbol - text - dot symbol - text. I've done pattern matching on email addresses before (to confirm that you entered a valid email address on a form, not a bot!), and it's pretty simple to do... so that's why it commonly happens.
Scott
scott AT paperorplasticsports DOT com ;)
Kira shot five rounds of 799 and above at Women's Nationals. There's another Am IV for you!
Please note that all references to 825 have been replaced with 835. I talked to some higher ups about the idea, and they suggested 40 point spread similar to the Pros-Playing-Am and Lower Division Cap spreads.
With that change, there are about 40 PDGA members in Illinois alone right now with an Am IV rating. Some in southern Wisconsin too. I've started creating a database and I'm going to do a mailing. But now that i've figured out how to sell this idea to Lorrie, maybe she'll get me the database.
Quote from: bruce_brakel on January 25, 2007, 09:02:23 AM
Please note that all references to 825 have been replaced with 835. I talked to some higher ups about the idea, and they suggested 40 point spread similar to the Pros-Playing-Am and Lower Division Cap spreads.
That's interesting based on Chuck's recent posts, one would think that he would recommend a wider spread for two reasons. a) The std dev is higher in lower divisions 2) the rating points per throw is higher in lower divisions
Interesting point. Did he suggest where he thought the spread should change from 40 to 50?
Re-reading my e-mail, I think we'll stick with 835.
http://www.pdga.com/msgboard/showflat.php?Board=Other%20PDGA%20Topics&Number=642791&Searchpage=0&Main=641334&Search=true&#Post642791 (http://www.pdga.com/msgboard/showflat.php?Board=Other%20PDGA%20Topics&Number=642791&Searchpage=0&Main=641334&Search=true&#Post642791)
At the above link Chuck made this statement...
QuoteThe lower the rating, the higher their scoring range. So, we set the ranges around 50 for divisions under 900. We've tightened it up to 40 points for Intermediate since the scoring range per player starts shrinking. The ranges we have were not made up but statistically determined to allow a player even with the lowest rating in a range to have a shot at cashing but not neccessarily winning. Also, players at the low end of a range are just as likely to be at the high end of a lower division as their rating stabilizes over the years and be the favorite sometimes.
I have a question on the AM-IV side-bet. Since you guys are offering a discounted pre-registration, trophy only is $15 pre-reg, $20 day of. The AM-IV side bet covers the difference between trophy only and the full registration fee. I'm kinda answering the question for myself as I'm typing this, but will the side-bet just be $10 for each AM-IV participating? That's the difference in the price between trophy only and full registration. It just looks confusing since you could pre-register at $15, but then full-fee on the day of is $30. It makes you think that you need to put in another $15 to make it all equivalent, but I suppose that if everyone puts in $10, it doesn't matter if you pre-reg or register day of.
Perhaps if you want to be AM-IV you are required to pre-register? This division already has to be a pre-established group of names... Just throwing that out there.
As cool as I think the idea for AM-IV is, I really do hope that I won't be in AM-IV by the end of the IOS2007 year! :)
Hopefully, Mirth will set up the store so that you can pre-reg as an Am IV the same way you pre-reg as an Am III. There should be an Am IV TO and an Am IV full. The sidebet is for PDGA purposes, how we handle it on the TD report since the PDGA is still shunning men rated below 835. ::) On the TD report, Am IVs are trophy-only rec players who got in on a ratings based side game. Is the store set up yet? I'll post and go have a look.
So you got that Mirth? Set up Am IV to look like any other division. Same entry fee prices and options as Am III and Am II.
Answering Scott's question, the sidebet is $10. If you pre-register, you pay it by paying the full entry fee. If you were to pre-register as a trophy-only we could still let you upgrade by paying the $10 later.
Did you guys ever figure out how you want to group AM IV? Mixed in with Rec(AM III) or AM IV ghetto? What about second round? Does the AM III player who tanks his first round play with a bunch of AM IV's and does the AM IV who shoots a good round play the second round with the AM III's? Frankly, I don't know whether this would effect my decision one way or the other, just wondering. I must admit that the rare times last year when I played advanced masters (solely due to scheduling reasons) and was the worst player on the course, I enjoyed the company and learned a lot from my competitors. Hmmm.
Bruce will correct me, but I believe AM4 is grouped with AM3 for first round, and then in the second round the AM4's will magically be grouped together. AM4 will be limited to PDGA members only < 835.
That's correct. Mixed with Am IIIs in the morning.
Quote from: bruce_brakel on February 14, 2007, 01:53:50 PM
So you got that Mirth? Set up Am IV to look like any other division. Same entry fee prices and options as Am III and Am II.
Answering Scott's question, the sidebet is $10. If you pre-register, you pay it by paying the full entry fee. If you were to pre-register as a trophy-only we could still let you upgrade by paying the $10 later.
I'm not seeing the Am IV registration option for IOS #1, should I proceed as Rec and just add a comment that I want to be in AM IV?
from the site:
QuoteIf you are preregistering for AM IV then select recreational and in addition to your PDGA number please include AM IV in the comments box.
Quote from: mirth on March 19, 2007, 08:27:10 AM
from the site:
QuoteIf you are preregistering for AM IV then select recreational and in addition to your PDGA number please include AM IV in the comments box.
Don't feel too bad for missing that Scott. There's a lot of text on that page.
would we like to see that bolded or something else?
Is there any reason it's not just treated like AM3 or AM2 as Bruce suggested ealier?
Quote from: Jon Brakel on March 19, 2007, 09:02:26 AM
Quote from: mirth on March 19, 2007, 08:27:10 AM
from the site:
QuoteIf you are preregistering for AM IV then select recreational and in addition to your PDGA number please include AM IV in the comments box.
Don't feel too bad for missing that Scott. There's a lot of text on that page.
*cough* would have helped if I had read it *cough* I skimmed it.
Maybe make it say
AM IV: in bold like that to the left of the area where it gives those instructions?
Good suggestion. I bolded the part that says "If you are preregistering for AM IV"
Hopefully that will catch people's attention.
Looks like the first four Am 3s preregistered are all Am 4s! :D
I'm finding it interesting that 7 of 9 at this point are Am 4s. It's going to be a fun competition.
They have Am IV ratings anyway!
I have long suspected, given the bell curve distributions of most things in nature, that there have to be as many men at the Am IV level of play as there are at the Open Pro level. But then when I visit a fun easy course and look around I think, no, there are ten times as many Am IVs as there are Am 3s. They don't join and don't play because we don't offer them a division. They play an unsanctioned tournament, get slaughtered, and think, "I'll try that again next decade."
Who knows if maybe we run Am IV for a couple of years and a typical lower day consists of 110 players who have to pre-register long before the seven-day forecast if they want to get a spot.
We had eight Am IVs signed up to play Am IV and a few more who signed up to play Am III at IOS #1. So this seems like an experiment worth repeating. Like anything, it will take a little time to grow.
Remember, you have to be a PDGA member with a rating less than 835 to play Am IV. It is reported to the PDGA as Am III trophy-only with an optional side game for prizes. You may or may not be sorted in with the Am IIIs in the morning depending on who is on leaderboards at IOS #2.
I sent out a dozen or so letters to Illinois Am 4s explaining the concept and inviting them to Lombard. I'm going to go out on a limb ;) and make an Am IV second place trophy.
Quote from: bruce_brakel on April 26, 2007, 11:42:34 AM
I sent out a dozen or so letters to Illinois Am 4s explaining the concept and inviting them to Lombard. I'm going to go out on a limb ;) and make an Am IV second place trophy.
It is a good time to start competing in sanctioned events as a beginner, thanks to you. Players at my level who would've never considered a sanctioned event may now think twice, as an acheivable goal is within their skill level. IOS #1 was my first event. It was exciting to know that the AM IV was out there for me. Thanks!
I sent a special invitation to about 20 players rated less than 835 in the Chicago-Milwaukee-Joliet area, letting them know about the AM IV option at Lombard. It looks like there are 11 preregistered, but Jon, Becky, Brett and Mirth handle preregistration so I'm not sure if they all signed up for AM IV.
Anyway, if this is putting the fun in for a dozen players who might otherwise have stayed home, my life now has added meaning and purpose! ;D
I think the AM IV option is great for those who qualify, but it is effectively wiping out the Rec pool. The number of players >835 and <875 is so few that the actual PDGA recognized division is practically non-existant. if the IOS #2 pre-reg list is any indication, of 18 player currently listed only 2 fall in that range.
Can someone tell me how many are Rec, and how many are AM IV?
According to my prereg list, its 6 AM4 & 12 REC
I wouldn't be surprised if there are quite a few day-of registrations of only the rec division. There were 46 overall people signed up in 2006 for the rec division, and a bunch of those players were not PDGA rated (meaning less of a chance that they could be qualified for Am IV).
You'll probably have at least 25-30 in rec, if not more.
Quote from: Mitch on May 18, 2007, 08:53:46 AM
The number of players >835 and <875 is so few that the actual PDGA recognized division is practically non-existant.
What is your source for that information?
Quote from: mirth on May 18, 2007, 09:03:02 AM
According to my prereg list, its 6 AM4 & 12 REC
From what I see there are 11 AM IV eliigibles on the list and I suspect that they may change on the day of the event. They may not have figured out how to register for AMIV. This would mean that out of 18 players there may be 11 AM IV and 7 Rec out of the currently listed preregistered players. I had told Mitch that I could win AM IV (ok, just stop laughing right now!) and he could beat me by 10 strokes and I could still take home more plastic than him. This does appear to be a possibility.
Quote from: mirth on May 18, 2007, 09:03:02 AM
According to my prereg list, its 6 AM4 & 12 REC
Well if that stat holds up, it's not as bad as I thought. Thanks Mirth!
Quote from: Jon Brakel on May 18, 2007, 09:17:40 AM
Quote from: Mitch on May 18, 2007, 08:53:46 AM
The number of players >835 and <875 is so few that the actual PDGA recognized division is practically non-existant.
What is your source for that information?
I am simply referring to the IOS #2 pre-reg list.
Bear in mind that my prereg list is only paid preregs taken by me & doesn't reflect all the players that have committed to being at the event. I'm sure both numbers will go up.
I wouldn't mind seeing the two divisions wind up with the same number of players. A lot of AM IV's probably would have played trophy only rec anyway, so it wouldn't have affected overall rec payout that much in the first place. So far AM IV has proven to be a great thing :)
Quote from: Mitch on May 18, 2007, 09:48:39 AM
Quote from: Jon Brakel on May 18, 2007, 09:17:40 AM
Quote from: Mitch on May 18, 2007, 08:53:46 AM
The number of players >835 and <875 is so few that the actual PDGA recognized division is practically non-existant.
What is your source for that information?
I am simply referring to the IOS #2 pre-reg list.
If you are going on pre-reg, it is going to skew toward AMIV in the pre-reg category. Most Rec players do not pre-reg but so far we have been seeing that most AMIV players do pre-reg. Why? Because they are active online. I've noticed that the more active online a person is the more likely they are to pre-reg. Most AMIV players heard about it here, online. Since we are the only TDs offering AMIV that I know of, it is not a well known division outside of this forum. I think at IOS #1 we did not have any walk-up AMIV players, they were all pre-regged.
Don't forget that AMIV is restricted to PDGA members with a low enough rating. All non-PDGA members, will play at least at Rec or higher. Last year at the Lombard IOS there were 21 of 46 that were not PDGA members in the Rec division. There will be plenty of people in the Recreational division come Sunday.
Just to clarify things, AM IV is a sidebet for prizes for Recreational rated players rated below 835. It is not a separate division, yet. On the TD report they are trophy-only Rec players who got in on the free Am IV trophy sidegame by indicating their trophy preference, and who got in on the sidebet if they paid the extra $10. For purposes of PDGA statistics, including PDGA Worlds points and PDGA ratings, you are all Recreational players. You'll be comingled in the official stats.
If you run through the list of Am IV sidebetters at Lombard, Pitner, Barrish, the Brakels, and Krupicka were all trophy-only players in Rec last year. Three players played trophy-only in Am IV so they would have been TO in Rec. I think the other three didn't play many tournaments last year, but if they knew about the trophy-only situation at IOS tournaments, it seems doubtful they'd be in for prizes in Rec.
I'm quite certain that offering the Am IV sidebet makes it much more likely that these lower rated PDGA members will play our tournaments, and it does not take anything away from the players who get in for the Rec payout. To the contrary, players like Pitner, Barrish and Krupicka will now have more reasons to work at improving their game and are likely to quickly play their way out of Am IV. I know at least three of these players have been practicing more and getting pointers from higher skilled players. [I'm not sure about Barrish!] So the Am IV concept works to encourage these players to be the future of the Recreational division.
There is really no reason not to have Am V and Am VI, for that matter, and for awhile the PDGA had a format that worked just like that with color designated divisions. We already have these divisions but we restrict participation to women. The Am IV women are proving that a women's 800 rating means the same thing as a men's 800 rating. They may have different strengths and weaknesses as players, but they can all compete and have fun together. Diana is having a blast competing at the top of the group with Barrish, Pitner and Krupicka.
Quote from: bruce_brakel on May 21, 2007, 10:10:44 AM
Diana is having a blast competing at the top of the group with Barrish, Pitner and Krupicka.
I think the feeling was mutual. We had a very delightful afternoon. We are in Am IV so we all have holes in our game. However, we are all getting better having fun doing it. I was also pleased to break my Brakel curse. I had never played very well when on a card with any Brakel. Before the round I told them that I always played well with Krupicka and poorly with Diana. I think I might be Krupicka's evil omen. He always seems to play better when I am not around. Mike, lets remedy that in Crystal Lake.
One of the good things about AMIV for me is I get a chance at learning how to play on a lead card. I had a good first round Sunday and thought I could improve on it. I didn't and dropped back to 4th place. Scott, Dave and Diana, I look forward to going head to head again with yall at Crystal Lake. I will not let that happen again. 8)
Bruce is right, if he wasn't offering AMIV, I would only be playing trophy only.
(Dave, I have your clipboard)
Quote from: bruce_brakel on May 21, 2007, 10:10:44 AM
I'm quite certain that offering the Am IV sidebet makes it much more likely that these lower rated PDGA members will play our tournaments, and it does not take anything away from the players who get in for the Rec payout.
The only thing that I feel could be modified is that a new player that doesn't have a PDGA rating yet, like myself, should still be able to compete in AM IV. I understand that a new & talented player could show up without a rating & blow everybody out of the water, but what are the chances?
Quote from: Classic_ROCer on May 22, 2007, 10:42:49 AM
Quote from: bruce_brakel on May 21, 2007, 10:10:44 AM
I'm quite certain that offering the Am IV sidebet makes it much more likely that these lower rated PDGA members will play our tournaments, and it does not take anything away from the players who get in for the Rec payout.
The only thing that I feel could be modified is that a new player that doesn't have a PDGA rating yet, like myself, should still be able to compete in AM IV. I understand that a new & talented player could show up without a rating & blow everybody out of the water, but what are the chances?
Just take a look at the regular Rec division. It usually will have a few unrated players who WILL blow everyone out of the water. Heck even in Intermediate.The way AM IV is set up, its for people who maybe wouldn't be that competitive in Rec, yet with this they still play for prizes & not just "donate" to the Rec division. If you let unrated people into AM IV, then you defeat the purpose.
I would be fine with granting case-by-case waivers into the Am IV division for PDGA members who are waiting on their first rating. The next ratings come out the day after Cryztal Cruise. Post a name and PDGA number and I'll look at your stats or refer it to the elves.
But non-members, no. We're trying to show the PDGA that Am IV will get people to join if the PDGA makes the division member-only.
Quote from: bruce_brakel on May 22, 2007, 11:20:20 AM
I would be fine with granting case-by-case waivers into the Am IV division for PDGA members who are waiting on their first rating. The next ratings come out the day after Cryztal Cruise. Post a name and PDGA number and I'll look at your stats or refer it to the elves.
But non-members, no. We're trying to show the PDGA that Am IV will get people to join if the PDGA makes the division member-only.
Thanks, Bruce. Here's my info:
Jason Hall
PDGA# 30947
It would be nice to participate in AM IV for Cryztal Cruise like I did for Kenosha. Not trying to say that I'm going to dazzle anybody, but at least I can be competitive. :)
Quote from: bruce_brakel on May 22, 2007, 11:20:20 AM
We're trying to show the PDGA that Am IV will get people to join if the PDGA makes the division member-only.
Personally I'd like to see all of the ratings protected divisions be reserved for PDGA members only. Non-members could play any division on Saturday (our upper day) that their age allows them to play, i.e. Advanced, Advanced Masters, etc and Open. We could make a division called something like "Amateur" that we could offer on the lower day for those non-members who have lower rated friends that they want to go with.
It doesn't make any sense to me to say to members you can't play "X" division because your rating is too high but a non-member can play whatever they want. If they did that with age divisions the Masters would have a problem with that. "Ummm, this dude is obviously only 20 years old, he can't play Masters." "Yes" replies the TD "but he's a non-member so the age limit doesn't apply to him!" :P
We'll see how Jason's IOS 2 scores rate, but I think we could give him a waiver into Am IV for Crystal Lake.
The AMIV division is probably going to be the most tightly contested division. At Rockford, there was a three way tie for first, with the a two others one throw behind them. Hopefully no one gets bumped in the August update as the series points are close too.
Am 4 is going just as I foresaw, to paraphrase that Star Wars bad guy. Players get better when they have someone to compete against other than their mother. And their mother gets better too! ;D If it also works for Pitner, Barrish, Krupicka, [and their mothers], so much the better.
Am IV is the 2007 experiment that will stick, but I keep hearing rumors of a PDGA approved Am 4 in 2008 so maybe we can just go with the flow there instead of kicking at the pricks [so to speak].
Meanwhile, the preregistration discount experiment is on the skids. We aren't getting any pre-reg out of that, but it sure makes doing the accounting for each tournament a big pain in the bundt cake. I spent about 30 minutes Sunday trying to figure out how many Rec players were which of the eight different flavors of Rec player we now have, Trophy-only or Full, III or IV and pre-reg or day of. Arrrrghhhh!
But getting back on topic, now that you Am 4s are enjoying the competition and not viewing Am IV as the ghetto division, do you want to be grouped together for the morning round or do you want to go with the theory that you might get to play with better players if you get mixed in with the Recs? Sunday there were as many worse as there were better. I'm not saying you'll get what you want, but it is possible you might.
Perhaps the discount isn't high enough?
Quote from: Top Banana on July 09, 2007, 08:17:48 PM
Meanwhile, the preregistration discount experiment is on the skids. We aren't getting any pre-reg out of that, but it sure makes doing the accounting for each tournament a big pain in the bundt cake. I spent about 30 minutes Sunday trying to figure out how many Rec players were which of the eight different flavors of Rec player we now have, Trophy-only or Full, III or IV and pre-reg or day of. Arrrrghhhh!
Gotta agree with Mirth. After the Paypal fee (I'm never around to do it at any other events) it's only $2 bucks less. I pre reg because at least in theory it makes things easier for you guys and it's nice to walk up day of and just do the speed lane check in. But the $2 discount is a very small motivating factor for me.
2 things:
1) prereg - I agree with Jay. For pre-registration I really like to register online, but when you throw in paypal fee, then it's almost not worth it. I would have preregistered Keith and myself this past Sunday, except my excuse was not knowing about baby. If there was more of a difference between online registration versus day-of registration, I think you'd get more registrations. Perhaps if you had a "if you register prior to 2 weeks before the event you get $7 discount and if you pre-register after that it's only a $5 discount" or something like that... added incentive for the really early birds (which I know is always appreciated!)
2) I'd rather be grouped randomly with am iv and rec in the morning round UNLESS Am IV gets bigger. As much as I don't mind throwing with the fellow Am IV's, it prevents meeting a lot of other people. No question we should be grouped with other AM IV's for the 2nd round so that we have a good knowledge of how things are shaping up for the final scores.
On the prereg- If the PDGA would a) add the AMIV division, and b) recognize that some do play trophy only in all of the divisions and fix their stupid spreadsheet, then you are back down to just whether or not they pre-reg'd. I, for one, take advantage of the pre-registration and hand a check to Brett at each IOS for the next one. No paypal fees, no stamps, just a smile from Brett. If pre-reg was at least $5 after paypal fees, you may get more people taking you up on it.
I enjoy playing with the AMIV crew and look forward to the second round with Dave and Diana (and hopefully Scott next time), but I like the mix in the morning round as it gives me a chance to play with others out there. If AMIV gets bigger, than grouping AMIV by themselves is cool too. I guess I really don't care. The Rec players are not better enough that I learn from them. I have shot variety and creativity in getting out of the schule. My biggest problems are trying too hard to throw and putting lapses.
We can't do a graduated scale of discounts because that just means more entry fees to account for when figuring out payouts, etc. on the day of the tournament. The only way we could do that is if we had power for the laptop and had everything in a calculating spread sheet. And even then we'd be screwed if there was power failure or a problem with the computer.
Obviously a price break doesn't make a difference to most people. Last year it was more expensive to pre-reg online (because of the paypal fee) than it was to register on the day of. We're getting about the same amount of pre-reg.
Were there any stats looked at comparing # of pre-reg vs. total number that showed up for the day? I've noticed that attendance has unfortunately been down at almost all of the tournaments this year (except Crystal Lake Sunday), and I'm curious if there's say... 30 people that pre-reg'd for Sunday Rockford with 67 people playing (45% pre-registered) whereas maybe last year it was still 30 pre-registrations but there were 82 people playing Sunday at Rockford in 2006 (37%).
So maybe if it was analyzed that way it would help reveal some more information? It has been an interesting year for disc golf, that's for sure.
I think the lower attendance this year is a bunch of things: Last year a lot of players were playing more tournaments to get a Worlds invitation. This year a lot of players are practicing for Worlds and saving some spending money for Worlds, so they are playing fewer tournaments. Also, I don't think we have promoted as well this year. And I think ace pools rolling over were helpful last year too.
I didn't think about the Worlds aspect, but yeah, all the other items you mentioned have definitely come to my mind about why attendance might be lower.
Just need to start bringing more new players to the sport and get them to start going to tournaments ;) I was one of the newbies last year :)
Pre reg issue- some folks live in a cash world. preregistering usually means using a credit card or writing a check. I don't pre reg because of the $2 savings. I do it bcause it makes the morning a litle easier. Its like having an I-pass. I have been a bit baffled by the lower attendance this year. People still need points for Kalamazoo! I think the ace pool comment is on target. For a lot of people the ace pool is a big draw. Everybody wanted a share of tteh $750 last year. For an Ace virgin like me its not a real big deal. I throw in my money because I know I will hit one the time I decide not to bother.
Am Iv grouping- either -or- whatever. On the one hand we have a nice group and have enjoyed playing with each other. On the other hand, it gets a little incestous. Its nice to meet new people. Whatever you do somebody will complain. I won't be one of them.
Quote from: Chainmeister on July 10, 2007, 11:00:37 AM
Pre reg issue- some folks live in a cash world. preregistering usually means using a credit card or writing a check. I don't pre reg because of the $2 savings. I do it bcause it makes the morning a litle easier. Its like having an I-pass. I have been a bit baffled by the lower attendance this year. People still need points for Kalamazoo!
I don't think there is anyone in Illinois even thinking about Kalamazoo, except maybe you. Illinois players don't even know where Kalamazoo is. I know because they've asked me if they can stay at my place if they go to Worlds in Kalamazoo and I have to tell them that their place is closer to Kalamazoo than my place! ;D
make sure to raise your right hand and show them on the map where Kalamazoo is compared to where you live ;)
I went to college in Flint, I'm familiar with the map :)
Quote from: Top Banana on July 10, 2007, 12:59:53 PM
I don't think there is anyone in Illinois even thinking about Kalamazoo, except maybe you. Illinois players don't even know where Kalamazoo is. I know because they've asked me if they can stay at my place if they go to Worlds in Kalamazoo and I have to tell them that their place is closer to Kalamazoo than my place! ;D
Actually, Waterford is a whopping 20 minuntes closer (according to GoogleMaps) than Downers Grove >:D
First, having 174 players per event is pretty darn big. That is where we are at right now after 4 events. We'll see what happens at the last 2 events. There are tons of events around the country that would love to have that many people. Drawing an average of 187 players per event last year was insane.
Reasons in which I believe attendance is down.
1. Economincs (Gas)
2. Ace Pool has not rolled over
3. More local tournies to play. Players are staying closer to home.
4. Many of the players that were playing both days last year are now only able to play Saturday due to rating.
5. Worlds points (I see about 40 of the IOS crowd playing Am Worlds this year)
6. Worlds-Players are cutting back to play that event.
7. Scheduling. I didn't realize 07-07-07 was such a wedding day and that the weekend after the 4th of July is when people would celebrate. It was also only 2 weeks after Crystal Lake but we didnt' have many options with Am & Pro Worlds.
July 4 weekend is traditionally a bad weekend to schedule a tournament. This year there were two half-bad July 4 weekends to choose from. Next year let's not schedule on the July 4 weekend. It is a leap year so July 4 will leap forward from Wednesday to Friday.
I'm fine with our attendance. Crystal Lake was over the top on the lower day. Aurora should be fine too. As our Intermediates move up to Advanced, attendance will improve on the upper day.
I can almost guarantee that our attendance in Aurora will be up from last year. Last year was our first year in Aurora and I don't think we had ace money coming into that tournament. This year we have some rollover ace money and the second year should be bigger. The player base in Aurora has grown which will help also.
Overall I think we will see an attendance bump from this year to next. There are still players finding out that we run good tournaments. There was a LOT of worlds hype last year that got many players out to our tournaments to get points. One thing that we need to work on is keeping flyers up at the courses where the events will be. It is difficult as most flyers get taken down on a weekly if not daily basis. But flyers at the course is where the next generation of Rec players come from and the Rec players turn into Intermediate players and so on. Speaking of which is there anyone that can put up a flyer in Aurora and try to keep it up? Do we have anyone on this board that lives or works near the course?
Aaron Scott will be happy to help out. Fox Metro Discer. He volunteered on Saturday to help out with Aurora. He said that they are planning to fix up the course prior to the tourney and he said anything else we needed he would try and help out.
I would definately be more than happy to do anything you guys need for Aurora's tourney. Just let me know.
As stated above, we will be holding a cleanup day prior to the tournament as well. I will also be able to help with anything on Sunday as I can no longer play on the lower level days. I may even be able to walk the course as I may let my 5 year old play in his first tournament. He just needs to learn to follow the rules a bit better between now and then. ^_^
Cool! Can you print and post this flyer at the course? If you can't print them let me know and we'll get some printed ones to you. This is an Aurora specific flyer in that Aurora is in larger font.
Getting this thread back to the AMIV division. How many series trophies will there be for AMIV? It's not currently posted on brasscash.com
I did inventory on the lunch hour. One Am 4 Overall trophy disc, sponsored by Discraft.
Jon, the ones you need to order special trophies for are Open, Advanced, Intermediate and Recreational.