This stuff looks so cool..
http://www.discraft.com/news_0701_flx.html (http://www.discraft.com/news_0701_flx.html)
It would be interesting to see what happens when these things whack a tree. maybe it will give even more truth to the meaning of taco-ing a disc!
I can't order these... Bruce can! I'll happily take a Surge or two or three.
I've got a Surge and a Buzzz en route. :)
Picked up a stack of these at the tournament where they were released this weekend. I haven't thrown them yet, but the picture on Discraft's website doesn't lie! When warm, these things are very floppy, but not obnoxiously floppy. When they are cold they are still flexible, providing a great grip.
A couple of comments from Jim Kenner when talking to him during one of our rounds were that the Surge seems to be a bit more overstable than normal esp surges and an added benefit from the flexible plastic is their ability to absorb the force of the disc hitting the ground/tree/other object. They will still skip like usual but when thrown as a thumber or spike hyzer they will just stop, and hopefully when they hit a tree the kicks will be straight down instead of 50' right or left.
Quote from: stpitner on January 16, 2007, 12:35:20 PM
This stuff looks so cool..
http://www.discraft.com/news_0701_flx.html (http://www.discraft.com/news_0701_flx.html)
It would be interesting to see what happens when these things whack a tree. maybe it will give even more truth to the meaning of taco-ing a disc!
I can't order these... Bruce can! I'll happily take a Surge or two or three.
I'll get them if there is some interest. Looks like they have great memory.
Quote from: acedeucelefty on January 16, 2007, 12:49:05 PM
Picked up a stack of these at the tournament where they were released this weekend. I haven't thrown them yet, but the picture on Discraft's website doesn't lie! When warm, these things are very floppy, but not obnoxiously floppy. When they are cold they are still flexible, providing a great grip.
A couple of comments from Jim Kenner when talking to him during one of our rounds were that the Surge seems to be a bit more overstable than normal esp surges and an added benefit from the flexible plastic is their ability to absorb the force of the disc hitting the ground/tree/other object. They will still skip like usual but when thrown as a thumber or spike hyzer they will just stop, and hopefully when they hit a tree the kicks will be straight down instead of 50' right or left.
Sounds interesting now but I wonder if they would be too gummy in the middle of the summer.
On Second though Bruce I still want to pick a couple up so let me know if you get em
how long until Innova comes out with the exact same thing
for once Discraft is first with the new thing
I say good for Discraft. It helps promote healthy competition.
I'd take a couple off your hands.
Jason
so what, these are a slightly less floppy version of the plastic ching uses for what they call supreme?
i hope there not as floppy as the ching juju's when its warm mine is like throwing a undercooked pancake. they look sweet tho ill probly pick up acouple
OK got my hands on one of each of these now. Definitely not as floppy as those ching juju's. Not even close. They really aren't much different than an ESP (as they are still the ESP standard) but they just flex more. You can twist them around like the picture on the site and they go right back to the original, so as Bruce said it looks like they have good memory.
Holding onto them though I do wonder about their distance in comparison and their flippyness in comparison. I will be picking up an ESP Buzzz tonight (already have an ESP Surge) and testing out all 4 tomorrow to compare.
Disc-n-Dat has them but they would be 21 bucks with shipping so if someone knows where I can get a surge cheaper than that I would appreciate it.
Thanks
When I have them they'll be $13 or 13 Brass, free shipping if you buy two or more. But I always give the tournament players first crack at the new stuff.
so odds r you will sell out... anybody else got an in
I didn't end up using mine that much yesterday actually. They throw very similar to the ESP versions with the Surge being a bit more overstable in my opinion. I did notice that the ricochets were much less severe, so I will be using these discs for wooded courses.
There is someone selling these on the PDGA site under the Equipment section. You can find the thread about FLX and send him a message and he may have some left.
I'm coming to town this weekend or next. I'll bring some with me.
$10 each for Discontinuum members.
Please let me know where and when you will be in town and I will buy at least 2
Thank You
It is still looking very likely I'll be in town on Super Bowl Sunday, and I'll play Bevier league that morning. I have the last 53 FLX discs they're going to have for a couple of weeks. The Buzzzes are mostly 172 but mixed weights. The Surges are mostly 160 to 164 which is kind of light, but since the FLX is more overstable, that might be a nice weight for some of us. I'll post tomorrow after I pick them up.
I'll set some aside if you still want them. If the Buzzzes are slightly overstable for ESP, I'll probably want all 40 of those for myself!
Quote from: bruce_brakel on January 25, 2007, 09:25:10 PM
If the Buzzzes are slightly overstable for ESP, I'll probably want all 40 of those for myself!
I haven't thrown ESP buzzzes, but the flx was definitely more understable than z-buzzzes and more like an out of the box d-buzzz for me. The flx surges were more stable than esp for me as well.
Quote from: bruce_brakel on January 25, 2007, 09:25:10 PM
It is still looking very likely I'll be in town on Super Bowl Sunday, and I'll play Bevier league that morning. I have the last 53 FLX discs they're going to have for a couple of weeks. The Buzzzes are mostly 172 but mixed weights. The Surges are mostly 160 to 164 which is kind of light, but since the FLX is more overstable, that might be a nice weight for some of us. I'll post tomorrow after I pick them up.
I'll set some aside if you still want them. If the Buzzzes are slightly overstable for ESP, I'll probably want all 40 of those for myself!
I'd be interested in 4 Surges... the light weights are fine. The only problem is that I have a card show on superbowl sunday *sigh* and can't go to leagues. I'm currently trying to work it out to get to leagues 2/11 since that's the next meeting day. The show is in Rolling Meadows and isn't over until 2 though. hrmm...
They are supposed to be really bright orange and really bright green. I'm getting them on my lunch hour.
I agree with Jonathan on the Surge portion, I have the same weight for both the ESP and FLX discs and the FLX version is more stable for sure. As for the Buzzz, I would not compare it to the D Buzzz, but I have not thrown it enough times to compare to the ESP. From what I have seen, I would say the ESP is more stable, but I'll test that more this weekend.
I've got FLX. They are all that neon Discraft green that looks yellow to me. The Surges are all in the 161 to 164 range. I'll set them aside for Illinois players because Erich liked that idea. Michigan players have been getting them at other tournaments. The Buzzzes are mainly 170 to 172 but I have not gone through all of them.
When warm they are very soft. About as soft as the Soft Rhynos used to be. Maybe softer. Softer than Swirl APXs ever were. When they are frozen to 22 degrees, a number I pick because it has been that temperature in my car since lunch time, they are a little softer than normal ESP. The Star plastic in my car at 22 degrees is fairly rigid. The FLX is nice and flexy. If you have noticed how Star and ESP gets slippery when frozen, this stuff is still grippy. I did not have time to throw them but tomorrow I will.
I also got a new Soft GT Banger. If you liked the Banger but like soft putters, here you go. I attempted one 20 footer in the office and made it. I like soft putters. I'm switching.
I had to put away the Banger-GT because the ESP was too slick and the Pro-D was getting torn up extremely fast. I really want to try out that Soft Banger-GT!
Sounds like you won't be out at the Ice Bowl in the morning Bruce? Too bad! I'll catch you soon I'm sure ;)
The Soft Banger is not FLX. It is a plastic they will probably call Soft X, but it is different from all their previous Soft X plastics. It has a rubbery, grippy texture.
The Waterford Junior Girls Club threw the FLX on the football field today. [Some of them are staying with us this weekend because their parents have something going on.]
Because the Surges are in the low 160s, I immediately sold one to Kira and one to Emily. They were really bombing the Surge compared to how far they throw their Flashes. I think it is the ten grams. I think these 160 FLX Surges would be good for lower power players, but not much use to the cannon arms.
The FLX Buzzz is what I've been looking for. Kelsey says it is a little more overstable than a first run. It is less understable than the normal ESP Buzzz. It is a little more overstable than a colormax z Buzzz, which I think is a lot like a first run. It is really nice, in other words. The stabilty variations might be unnoticeable to some players, but I throw Buzzzes for a short driver and I throw different kinds for different shots.
We'll have to see how they wear and how they fly in warmer weather.
Quote from: bruce_brakel on January 27, 2007, 07:20:12 AM
The Soft Banger is not FLX. It is a plastic they will probably call Soft X, but it is different from all their previous Soft X plastics. It has a rubbery, grippy texture.
yup, I knew that. Although thanks for the clarification and I'm sure others didn't know that. I still want a bunch, but at least I can order those (maybe when I sell some of my 300+ of other stuff in stock!)
I was throwing a 172 FLX Buzzz at Byron today. These are sweet discs. They are not a bit flippy in neutral wind, but they are not overstable either.
It looks very much like I'll be coming to town for the Super Bowl.
Quote from: white_rhino on January 19, 2007, 02:26:12 PM
Disc-n-Dat has them but they would be 21 bucks with shipping so if someone knows where I can get a surge cheaper than that I would appreciate it.
Thanks
As promised, I was at league on Sunday. I'll go $16 with free shipping. I'll go cheaper for quantity orders. They are all the very bright green that looks yellow to some of us. E-mail me.
I'm now sold out of the Surges because Kira decided to stockpile some under her bed. She can really throw the Surge a long ways and it is much more reliable for her than a Flash because she throws with a little off-axis torque.
I still have some FLX Buzzzes left. I'm throwing one for straight tunnel shots.
Pitner will probably have a few FLX Buzzzes at the Irish You Good Luck tournament. Maybe. Maybe he bought them for himself. I didn't ask.
Quote from: bruce_brakel on February 26, 2007, 07:18:31 AM
I'm now sold out of the Surges because Kira decided to stockpile some under her bed. She can really throw the Surge a long ways and it is much more reliable for her than a Flash because she throws with a little off-axis torque.
I still have some FLX Buzzzes left. I'm throwing one for straight tunnel shots.
Pitner will probably have a few FLX Buzzzes at the Irish You Good Luck tournament. Maybe. Maybe he bought them for himself. I didn't ask.
The Buzzz's will be available at the tournament. I will only have FOUR of them. The one and only Surge that Bruce had left... well, that's currently up for public debate if that one will be there or not :) It's tough to say "yes I have it" and then only bring one disc lol.
Quote from: bruce_brakel on February 26, 2007, 07:18:31 AM
. . . because she throws with a little off-axis torque.
How much would you charge to review my drives for a little off-axis tourque?
a definition of off-axis torgue would be nice too. You defined it b4 in another thread awhile back, but I'm too lazy to search for it.
Quote from: DougEDawg on February 26, 2007, 08:43:03 AM
a definition of off-axis torgue would be nice too. You defined it b4 in another thread awhile back, but I'm too lazy to search for it.
its very similar to on-axis torque, only its a little off-axis.
The vernacular term is "cockeyed". I have been throwing that way for years.
Torque is a force that imparts spinning motion. So we all throw with torque. The disc spins around the axis, which in this case is the imaginary line through the center of the disc. Off axis torque is when the disc is released in such a way as to cause the axis to rotate as well as the disc. The centrifugal effect of the spinning disc resists off axis torque, which can cause your disc to wobble on release.
A lot of the time off-axis torque causes your disc to anhyzer into the ground. Usually off-axis torque is caused by rolling your wrist on release, rolling to palm up backhand or to palm down forehand. Usually when I roll my wrist it is because I was trying to overpower the disc or throw with more power than I can control.
Maybe because the Surge Kira is throwing is a lot lighter than her Flash, she isn't trying to over power it. Maybe the added stability of the Surge resists off axis torque better.
Knowing this kind of body mechanics stuff does not make you a better player. It could hurt your game by giving you too much to think about at a moment when your mind needs to be completely empty. What worked for me when I started learning this stuff was to think a lot about it at the football field when I was practicing, and to not think about it all during tournaments and competitive rounds.
Off axis torque is one of the biggest culprits when it comes to a player not being able to develop consistent D. It also hinders their ability to improve as well as their ability to perform well with a fairway control driver. If you watch Neil crush his putters and elements you will see someone throwing just about pure on axis rotation. That's why he can chuck a mid 350' into a modest wind and the thing just flies flat. When you learn (and I'm by no means saying I know how to do this well, but I've played with people who were excellent at it) to throw with no off axis torque, you now see how each disc was supposed to fly. Newer players with 275-325 feet of D are out there throwing wraiths and starfires because they keep burning discs like valks and flashes into the ground. Those people never learn to throw with accuracy because they don't have the ability to throw a fairway driver with accuracy and have it launch and fly flat.
I definitely agree that this is something best worked on in a field, but for my own personal development, I can't think of much related to driving and upshots that has helped me improve more than trying to get rid of any off axis torque unless I mean to do it for a turnover line.
Thread Drift -- Off-Axis Torque (OAT)
This term (OAT) confuses me. Is it referring to precession (where the axis of rotation wobbles like a spinning top or the earth) or "roll" (where the axis of rotation itself rotates around the axis of flight)? It seems to me that precession should always be minimized to the extent possible. Roll, OTOH, is inherent in the flight characteristics of the disc and is used to advantage in hyzer-flips, right?
Bruce, are you saying your daughter induces additional roll by changing the hyzer angle of the disc through the release point, and is this what is commonly meant by OAT?
I try to throw Valks and Flashes hyzer-flip style. Tim, are you saying I would have better results throwing with a flat release? Is there a Eureka moment here for me?
Quote from: can't putt on February 27, 2007, 08:49:38 AMBruce, are you saying your daughter induces additional roll by changing the hyzer angle of the disc through the release point, and is this what is commonly meant by OAT?
Bingo. Off-axis torque is usually because youre trying to throw too hard.
Ok. Well as long as this thread is already completely off topic and no one seems to be making any effort to get it back on topic:
I am a fairly new player (RHBH). Last fall I started to turn over discs that I previously hadn't turned over like a KC Pro Roc and a Gazelle, not violently, but enough that they ended up way right of where I was aiming even after they came back left. What is odd is that I don't seem to be getting any more distance on those discs or in general, so I questioned that it was simply more power that was turning them over. I started to suspect maybe OAT was the culprit.
So my question is how can a you tell the difference between turning over discs due to adding power vs. OAT? And if it is OAT what are some good remedies?
I have read most of the articles on discgolfreview.com. Any other good intructional articles out there?
Quote from: J.R. on February 27, 2007, 10:32:26 AM
. Any other good intructional articles out there?
Watching video has helped me tremendously over the past few years. Several years ago my form really sucked. My run up was long & fast. My arm was really wide & I had to throw anhyzer to get decent D. I have watched a ton of DVD's and watch as much disc golf as possible on the PC. If you watch the best players in the world they all have several things in common. Also, throwing a ton of discs on a football field or open field will drastically help in speeding the process up.
1. Their foot work is smooth.
2. The disc stays tight to the body.
3. Smooth release.
4. Excellent follow thru.
Get on discgolftv.com an watch the final round of the GC. You will immediately see what i'm talking about. Try to mimic that form.
Quote from: J.R. on February 27, 2007, 10:32:26 AM
Ok. Well as long as this thread is already completely off topic and no one seems to be making any effort to get it back on topic:
I am a fairly new player (RHBH). Last fall I started to turn over discs that I previously hadn't turned over like a KC Pro Roc and a Gazelle, not violently, but enough that they ended up way right of where I was aiming even after they came back left. What is odd is that I don't seem to be getting any more distance on those discs or in general, so I questioned that it was simply more power that was turning them over. I started to suspect maybe OAT was the culprit.
So my question is how can a you tell the difference between turning over discs due to adding power vs. OAT? And if it is OAT what are some good remedies?
I have read most of the articles on discgolfreview.com. Any other good intructional articles out there?
A couple of points (ironically mostly from DGR, check out the forums in addition to the articles. Absolutely outstanding advice through and through) of clarification. OAT is caused when the throw does not come through on the same plane as the disc being thrown. When watching the pros (and I highly recommend studying Barry Schultz in the 06 MSDGC) you will notice that their entire pull and follow through are parallel to the disc. All force and snap are imparted at a 90 degree angle to the central axis of the disc. When force is imparted that is not on the same plane, the axis of rotation wobbles and effects the disc's flight by driving it right and down (RHBH).
So why is this important??? Discs like the valk and flash are designed to fly that way when thrown flat. In order to get them to fly straight, you have to hyzer flip them as they naturally turn right in the high speed portion of their flight. These discs, though, can be the best teachers of how to eliminate off axis torque. If you can take a very understable disc and get it to hold a hyzer for a good distance without flipping flat, you know you have eliminated OAT.
On the other hand, discs like the KC Pro Roc are "true stable" meaning that they will not flip, ever, when thrown with no OAT. Their design simply prevents that. Other discs like this include the teebird, firebird x, and starfire x. Those discs can only be flipped with OAT. Soooo. If you are flipping valks and flashes intentionally, but can hyzer them if you want, you don't really have a problem. If you are, on the other hand, flipping the KC Roc, you have some torque issues to work on. Unfortunately, most people deal with the problem by masking the issue with really overstable plastic. Then they get blown away when they see Barry throw a beat to crap roc into a moderate wind 350' on a straight line. For more info search the DGR forums for "torque monkey" or "true stable".
I can't wait to get out on the course in the summer time and try out my new form. I know that some have seen me during the winter, and if I'm not having an off day and it's not super windy, I was just tearing it up. I fixed up my mechanics... shortened my run up, fixed my arm angle, follow all the way through (and didn't even realize I started doing that), and I'm snapping the disc better. Unfortunately since I have been playing Oak Brook recently you can't really wail on a disc and see what you can do. I have a lot more accuracy now though. My putting suddenly has worked a lot better for me too. A lot of my putting changes have just been confidence related.
Seriously though, I hope my rating goes through the roof this year. The best thing in my mechanics changes was to change my footwork. I take shorter steps, and while I don't have as much momentum I'm not taking big steps and making me be off-balance. Eventually perhaps I'll be able to work in a lot of shorter footsteps to gain momentum, but for right now I'm keeping it to a minimum so that I can get to the point where I'm controlling the disc more as opposed to it controlling me. Now I just need to work on my upshots a little bit more and realizing when it's a time to go for it and when it's time to just lay it up.
Brett,
Thanks for the advice! Videos are definitely the way to go. Other than an impromptu lesson by one of the Brakel women last year when I accidentially stumbled onto the ADV/PRO IOS #2 (this was before I knew anything about organized disc golf), I have learned what (little) I know from videos online, mostly DGR.
And thanks discmonkey for the ideas. I will check out the DGR forums. ;D
Getting back on track a bit, The Fox Valley Club got an order of the FLX discs in earlier this week, and I have begun throwing one in my bag to try out. What a disc!!! This thing is the straightest disc I have ever thrown. No fade at all on shots up to about 280'. I have even put htis thing into a stiff headwind. Putting the normal hyzer correction I would for any disc into this type of wind, It still holds its line. This disc is definately the most suprising of any I have ever thrown. Common logic would say that if you are throwing something so floppy, You could not put any gusto into the throw, but it is not so. I cannot wait to try out the Surge!!!
I just got a FLX Surge and absolutely LOVE the feel of both the plastic and the disc.. I don't throw much in the way of Discraft, but if they bring out more discs in that plastic I might have to start =)
I'll have the FLX Surge and Buzzz at IOS #1. The FLX Challenger and FLX Predator are available at Blowing Green, but they are not generally available yet.
The FLX plastic is so grippy and super durable. Discraft wants the FLX priced a little above the ESP, but my ESP price is so low, the FLX is only $14.
Discraft had a setup at Kerieakes in BG, where they basically had stacks of FLX drivers and people shagging discs for you, so you could try out as many throws as you wanted and not have to run after them. I tried out all the new drivers. The Avenger is a PIG. That disc was way more overstable than the Avenger in any other plastic. The Predator was also crazy overstable but thats expected. Really strange to pick up a disc that floppy and have it be that overstable. The FLX Surge either flew 420+ or like 300' for me. I wasnt consistent with it but got some big rips. The challenger feels nice if you like floppy putters. Its grippy and very soft.
FLX Buzzes have been my midrange disc now for about 2 months. I have noticed that the discs can change shape, possibly due to extreme heat in my car, but they seem to stay stable. It also has seemed to me that on warmer days the discs seem more stable. I was wondering if anybody else has been using FLX plastic for awhile and has noticed any changes in stability in the discs over time.
I had one of the first FLX Buzzz' when they came out and it went in my bag immediately. I keep an ESP in there as well. If I want more hyzer and more D, I throw the ESP, if I want a straighter shot with a little more S action and less distance, I throw the FLX. I haven't noticed that the FLX has started to fly differently though.
I think they might be a little more stable when it is warm, but i don't know if it is the disc or the air that causes that. My Rogues have been flying more stable recently. Everything in my bag is flying more stable or overstable.