Has anybody thrown the new Teerex X- they are currently sold at tournaments and on websites? Is is the X version more overstable than the current run of Teerexs? I have heard that there is a difference between the Tee-Rex version-an earlier run- and the current Teerex version, but is there a big enough difference between the the X version and the current run? Jason
discgolfvalues.com has them
I know of a couple sites that sell the new X version in star and champion. I'm wondering if there is difference between the current off-the-shelf-version Teerex and the new X version; or is this Innova changing the name of a disc. I have read, and heard, that the earlier runs labeled Tee-Rex were more understable in comparison to the later runs labeled Teerex. Jason
why does everything have to be so complicated. i didnt know about any of this.
I thorw primarily Innova, but have adding more and more Discraft to my bag. This is the kind of thing that makes me want to throw all of my Innova discs in the garbage. Why can't they just make a good disc and then leave it be?
Thats Innova marketing for ya
ok - here's how I understand it:
The Tee-Rex and TeeRex stamped discs shouldn't fly any different than each other. After the first run discs were finished (they had the innova star logo, see below):
(http://discgolftrader.com/images/trx1ry_driv_175.jpg)
First run TeeRex
Then the next run had the hyphen in the name and that stamp was replaced by the one without the hyphen. Presumably they just decided at Innova that the name didn't need to have the hyphen. When ordering direct from Innova they sent out BOTH stamps at the same time. I had one buyer go nutso with the hyphens, but there is really nothing different. I posted the picture of the true first run disc because some people think the hyphen in the stamp is the first run. That is not the case.
The TeeRex-X, as far as I know, is only available as a CFR disc. It's more overstable than the TeeRex, although I've only heard about it in Champion plastic, not Star. I have not actively pursued picking up any of these discs.
Want to be more confused? If no, then don't finish reading this post lol. If yes... continue on! There are Wraith-X discs as well. The Star Eagle is technically a "Star Eagle-X", same with the Star Firebird is a "Star Firebird-X".
Innova already has too many discs. They have 17 or 18 drivers! They also release these discs in a bunch of different plastics, which often alter their flight. Then, they come out with these X versions and leave the name and stamp the same. Then, they change their plastic so the Champion plastic from last year is different from this years. Then they license their molds to other manufacturers so some Innova disc turns up as a Millennium or Discmania discs with another name...It is all intended to drive us insane!
Innova is the biggest offender, but all of the manufacturers are guilty to some degree or another. Ever try a Radius? Don't bother, It's a Warlock!
You know, after I got off my high-horse I realized that this is not such a big deal. I remember getting two first-run 172 g KC Cheetahs, identical down to the red hot stamp. One was always more overstable than the other. Since they were identical, I had to write "Official NASCAR Disc-Only Turns Left" on the overstable one.
Discs vary for often mysterious reasons. Some manufacturers are better than others, but all have a problem making a consistent disc. Lots of times I have thrown a new disc that had a flight pattern that was a lot different than I expected. Lots of times I have had two of the same disc that behaved differently.
So Innova changes molds and leaves the disc name the same. Oh, well. It beats throwing Kitty Hawk Hookers. And I'm not throwing out all my Rocs in protest, either!
Innova did piss me off with the Champion Orcs. I was throwing them on 75+% of my drives and loving them for all of 2004. Then in 2005 at Parkside Bruce shows up with the newer Orcs and you could see through the champion plastic, which was not true on any of the ones I had thrown previously. They felt different and flew different.
So in conclusion, if you have Champion Orcs you don't want that are opaque (if opaque means you can't see through them) I would be happy to trade you another brand new unthrown disc for one. I like all weights.
a lot of it has to do with no longer having the specific blend of plastic available anymore. For instance, the Innova Pro line (as far as i know not KC Pro) is on its way out the door because Innova can't get the plastic anymore. From what I'm told, they are selling out what they have, and only using the remaining plastic to mold about 80% Pro Wraith and 20% Pro Starfire-L. For the rest it could be the end of the line unless something is found to replace it.
It's tough in the small market (even if it looks huge to us sometimes) of disc golf plastic.
If it has to with the type of plastic, why do I have two different molds of the monster? The champion monster comes in two different molds- one has a smooth edge and the other is more concaved- and the star version only comes in the smooth edge. Back to the Teerex debate, why is the DX Teerex have a completely different mold than the star version? If discs are going to change so much from run to run, why can't Innova just label each run? Jason
Quote from: jsun3thousand on June 07, 2007, 10:01:32 PM
Back to the Teerex debate, why is the DX Teerex have a completely different mold than the star version? If discs are going to change so much from run to run, why can't Innova just label each run? Jason
I asked Dave about this not long ago on the PDGA board and he said the DX Teerexes were with the current run of the Teerex mold meaning not the more overstable mold(teerex-X) but the regular one. I think it was just a rumor that there was a run of DX teerexes that were made in the X mold. All I know is that the Teerex is not a consistent enough driver to be in my bag because sometimes it flips and other times it doesn't. I have seen this not only by my throwing but other people as well. All I can say is that I am going to be sticking with Teebirds for a long time until they start making DX Starfires.
J
Quote from: stpitner on June 07, 2007, 08:09:46 PM
a lot of it has to do with no longer having the specific blend of plastic available anymore. For instance, the Innova Pro line (as far as i know not KC Pro) is on its way out the door because Innova can't get the plastic anymore. From what I'm told, they are selling out what they have, and only using the remaining plastic to mold about 80% Pro Wraith and 20% Pro Starfire-L. For the rest it could be the end of the line unless something is found to replace it.
It's tough in the small market (even if it looks huge to us sometimes) of disc golf plastic.
This is not the first time this has happened. Discraft made indestructible Phantoms until they couldn't get the plastic. Cyclone plastic is gone. The H plastic Gateway used is gone. CE plastic is gone, although there are rumors that it had to do with issues other than not being able to get it anymore. Innova Pro plastic is soon to go. There will be something else, and we will all throw it.
That really doesn't explain why there is a Roc, but they re-released the Ontario Roc and they continue to market the "Classic" Roc which is an XD with a bead. It confuses casual players when you recommend they throw a Roc. There is no telling what they might end up with.
Quote from: bubbakick on June 08, 2007, 07:38:02 AMThere will be something else, and we will all throw it.
ka-ching! All the different names and polymers make for good marketing in a niche market where everyone is always looking for something just a wee bit different. A little further? A little faster? A little straighter? I gotta get me some of those!
Quote from: bubbakick on June 08, 2007, 07:38:02 AM
It confuses casual players when you recommend they throw a Roc. There is no telling what they might end up with.
When most casual players throw one Roc vs another, they're not going to be able to tell the difference either.
Quote from: krupicka on June 08, 2007, 07:50:30 AM
Quote from: bubbakick on June 08, 2007, 07:38:02 AM
It confuses casual players when you recommend they throw a Roc. There is no telling what they might end up with.
When most casual players throw one Roc vs another, they're not going to be able to tell the difference either.
Yeah, most casuals won't touch a Roc because it's not a big D disc. A lot more casuals are putting with Valks than are throwing Rocs.
I have 2 star Teerex-X's in the bag. They are significantly domier and more overstable than the current normal star Teerexes. I throw them when I need a longer firebird, and for headwind drives. It is not a disc you can flex out, it really does not have much glide. It is reasonably fast, with a very hard finish. If I get a REALLY good pull on it, I will release it flat and it will fly dead straight for about 360-380 or so and then hyzer out. I dont have enough of an arm for a max, and a regular teerex isnt consistently overstable enough in my opinion.
Quote from: Mike S on June 09, 2007, 08:45:08 AM
I have 2 star Teerex-X's in the bag. They are significantly domier and more overstable than the current normal star Teerexes. I throw them when I need a longer firebird, and for headwind drives. It is not a disc you can flex out, it really does not have much glide. It is reasonably fast, with a very hard finish. If I get a REALLY good pull on it, I will release it flat and it will fly dead straight for about 360-380 or so and then hyzer out. I dont have enough of an arm for a max, and a regular teerex isnt consistently overstable enough in my opinion.
Good feedback, thanks.
?: all the "X" versions I'm aware of are more overstable than the regular mold. Can we use that as a general rule, or is anyone aware of an "X" version that is less stable?
Smart-a** comment: If this is true, they should change the Rancho Roc to the Roc X. It sounds more sinister!
Yeah, Innova's seemingly rule of thumb is "X" for more overstable discs and "L" for less stable discs (eg. Starfire-L - SL, Firebird-L - FL, TeeBird-L - TL).
Might be a light bulb moment for some on finally figuring out Innova's naming conventions :)
and according to the flight chart - the JK Aviar-X also follows the same naming conventions as it has a fade characteristic of +2 vs. the KC Pro Aviar at fade = +1
Just a heads up for you tournament players, not all of Innova's X and L variations are approved for PDGA tournament use. You can check the list for yourself, but I'm pretty sure the Teerex X has not been approved. If there is a Firebird X, it does not seem to be on the list. Ditto for the Starfire L, or SL. If you throw these discs in tournaments, you might want to check to see if the list is inaccurate.
I didn't even realise this until Saturday. Jim Kenner was asking me how the PDGA could possibly approve the Quest Turbo, because it isn't round, and discs have to have a radius and a diameter. Then he mentioned that a few common Innova discs have never been submitted for approval but left it to me to check the list for myself.
Bruce (and all) - the Firebird-X and Eagle-X are the standard Firebird and Eagle that Innova sends out. I think it's on their invoices or packing slips that make mention of Firebird-X and Eagle-X. If you look on the bottom of a Star Eagle they are commonly marked (5-pointed star symbol) EX.
As far as I know, the most accurate list is found here (updated through 6/5/07):
http://www.pdga.com/documents/tech_standards/PDGA_approved_discs_and_targets.pdf (http://www.pdga.com/documents/tech_standards/PDGA_approved_discs_and_targets.pdf)
You'll see that a lot of the naming convention variations for Innova are not listed. But then you need to ask is this disc actually retooled or is it more overstable just because of a change in plastic type? I'm really curious as to the accuracy of this list as well. Innova doesn't have in their molds "PDGA Approved discs" like Discraft and the other companies. One really notable disc that I do not see on that list is the SL. I see the regular Starfire, the TL, and the FL, but no SL. Intriguing.
according to that list the Turbo-Putt disc has a diameter of 22.1cm, has a max weight of 183.4g, and was approved on June 5th.
I e-mailed the tech standards committee about the SL. Maybe it is a typo or an oversight. I don't know.
According to the tech standards, it is possible that the SL would not have required approval if Innova had continued to call it the Starfire L. Since they initially called it the Starfire L and then shortened it to SL, maybe that is why it has slid by. According to the tech standards if you retool a mold and keep the name the same, but don't add or remove a structural feature and don't change the rim width or disc diameter, it does not have to be resubmitted. So maybe that's why Innova changes the mold and does not change the name, so they can get a retooled disc out faster and cheaper without tech standards approval.
Still, the documents that TDs agree to follow do not say that any disc that meets tech standards is PDGA legal. They say that any disc on the list is PDGA legal. The SL is not on the list.
for me there is a huge differnce between the teerexes. I had a green first run and there has been no teerex that comes anywhere close to that. It was nice and overstable and could be bombed with a nice head wind. the other tee-rex are for me slightly more stable and the ones that just read teerex are flippy. If I could I would only throw the first run but since no one ever wants to get rid of them I so use a max now. If that dang west lake wasn't there is all I can say now adays. I havent thrown the x mold but I am believing that it will fly closer to the first run.
QuoteAccording to the tech standards if you retool a mold and keep the name the same, but don't add or remove a structural feature and don't change the rim width or disc diameter, it does not have to be resubmitted. So maybe that's why Innova changes the mold and does not change the name, so they can get a retooled disc out faster and cheaper without tech standards approval.
I had a conversation with Dave McCormack about that. He wanted to rename the Element X because it gets confused with the Element, but according to PDGA specs he has to have the disc re-approved
even though the disc will remain the same because the name will be changed. However, when Innova changes molds and keeps the disc name the same the new mold does not have to be resubmitted (think Beast.) So, the Teerex X is called the Teerex in name and only has the "X" on the bottom. It does not have to be approved.
If I was Jim Kenner, I'd have a problem with this. I used to talk to Steve Howle a lot, and I miss hearing all the complaints he had about the Innova-PDGA world. Dave McCormack has had some of the same problems, so I'm sure Jim Kenner has had problems with it, too.
Some of the Innova discs on the approved list say "retooled": Aviar XD, Birdie, and Cheetah. The Cheetah was retolled three years after it was released. Also, some of the Innova discs are listed under their original name and CE version: Aero, Aviar, Eagle, Firebird, Spider, Teebird, and Valkyrie. I know there are a few disc on the list that come in both DX and CE, so are those discs the original mold in Champion plastic? What about Star plastic? What is up with this? Discraft has no retools or an "other" version in a different plastic. Jason
The PDGA tech standards do not require a disc to be retested merely because it is molded in another kind of plastic, but if there are issues with the stiffness of the plastic, sometimes the PDGA has requested that discs be retested. I think that was the deal with the CE discs.
Many Star Wraiths, by the way, are too stiff to pass the stiffness test. So many that it has become an issue between the PDGA and Innova. The PDGA has a list of discs that have failed in follow up testing and the Wraith is on the list.
Quote from: bruce_brakel on June 11, 2007, 07:49:09 PM
The PDGA tech standards do not require a disc to be retested merely because it is molded in another kind of plastic, but if there are issues with the stiffness of the plastic, sometimes the PDGA has requested that discs be retested. I think that was the deal with the CE discs.
Many Star Wraiths, by the way, are too stiff to pass the stiffness test. So many that it has become an issue between the PDGA and Innova. The PDGA has a list of discs that have failed in follow up testing and the Wraith is on the list.
That was my understanding also, that the CE discs got enough complaints about the stiffness that the PDGA requested them to be retested. I've never seen a list of discs that have failed follow-up testing, That would be interesting info. So, now what happens to the Star Wraith?
Quote from: bubbakick
So, now what happens to the Star Wraith?
Innova put Ken's name and image on it. Jason
Quote from: bubbakick on June 11, 2007, 08:28:22 PM
Quote from: bruce_brakel on June 11, 2007, 07:49:09 PM
The PDGA tech standards do not require a disc to be retested merely because it is molded in another kind of plastic, but if there are issues with the stiffness of the plastic, sometimes the PDGA has requested that discs be retested. I think that was the deal with the CE discs.
Many Star Wraiths, by the way, are too stiff to pass the stiffness test. So many that it has become an issue between the PDGA and Innova. The PDGA has a list of discs that have failed in follow up testing and the Wraith is on the list.
That was my understanding also, that the CE discs got enough complaints about the stiffness that the PDGA requested them to be retested. I've never seen a list of discs that have failed follow-up testing, That would be interesting info. So, now what happens to the Star Wraith?
I don't know what is going to happen. The PDGA is almost as powerful as Innova these days.
I'm still trying to find out if the SL is legal for tournament use. The tech standards committee told me that it did not have to be retested because it was a modification that did not add or remove a bead or thumbtrack. However, Rule 805(B)(12) creates a bright line rule: if a disc is not on the approved list you cannot carry it or throw it in a tournament. The SL is not on the list. So I'm waiting to hear from the Rules Committee.
I hope it's OK. I like my Star SL(ut)
I just got e-mail back from both the rules committee and the tech standards committee. The rules committee deferred to the tech standards committee. And tech standards said:
QuoteHi Bruce,
The SL has not been submitted to the TSC for testing and approval and so it is not approved for PDGA competition. I've notified both Tim Selinske and Dave Dunipace of that status, but they are yet to send samples of it for testing.
Jeff
Crap! Add another line to the list of why I should switch to all Discraft, *sigh*
I won an FLX Pulse this weekend, but that's not PDGA approved!
The Pulse was approved on June 29, 2006. The PDGA does not require reapproval every time the blend of plastic changes. But you will probably never see a Z-Pulse because it would be too stiff to pass the crush test.
I did a check of all current innova discs against the list, and I don't see the SL (already discussed obviously), the TeeBird (although the CE TeeBird is on there, so it might be ok), the Classic Aviar (I'm not sure what this was originally named), and the Pulsar (but this is ok because it's an Ultimate disc and approved by the Ultimate people). Everything else (including the stuff like the Zephyr, Condor, Jaguar) are all approved.
It's a little confusing with the Aviar because they have Aviar and Aviar Putter listed. So right there that could mean Classic Aviar and Aviar P&A, but it would leave the Aviar Driver out, or it could represent the Aviar Driver and the Aviar P&A leaving the Classic Aviar out. I'm also claiming that the Aviar XD (retooled) is = the XD.
So it's a little confusing, but it really is intriguing about that SL. Are TD's about to start getting really picky about you throwing that disc? I hope not, but it really does need to get official approval ASAP.
The joys of all sorts of different plastic molds...
I would expect that we would play by PDGA rules at the IOSeries. And so that no one will have an unfair advantage, we will probably announce this.
I don't know how many other TDs even know about this. Some Michigan TDs do. I wouldn't throw an SL at Am Nationals.
Quote from: bruce_brakel on June 12, 2007, 04:03:13 PM
I would expect that we would play by PDGA rules at the IOSeries. And so that no one will have an unfair advantage, we will probably announce this.
No one would say me throwing an SL gives me any advantage ;D
WTF is all I gotta say about Innova. Dem bastards!! This really freakin blows my mind. Logic would dictate that you get the governing body of the sport to approve new equipment BEFORE retail sales occur. We need to send Brock Samson from the Venture Brothers after them!! F*ckers.
Looks like I'm bringing a set of Discraft discs with me to Highbridge next week to give them some throws. This might be the proverbial straw that breaks the camel's back. More like the stupidity that breaks mine.
Quote from: bruce_brakel on June 12, 2007, 01:09:22 PM
The Pulse was approved on June 29, 2006. The PDGA does not require reapproval every time the blend of plastic changes. But you will probably never see a Z-Pulse because it would be too stiff to pass the crush test.
I had heard this in the past too, but on the merch table it said on the box THIS IS NOT PDGA APPROVED.
I didn't look to see if I had a non dyed SL, but check out the Pro Starfire-L. Look at the hot stamp. See if you can read that they claim it's a PDGA approved disc... Guess somebody forgot something when it came to the approval process ;)
(http://www.paperorplasticsports.com/eBay/innova/12289971000.jpg)
Quote from: bruce_brakel on June 12, 2007, 07:23:37 AM
Quote from: bubbakick on June 11, 2007, 08:28:22 PM
Quote from: bruce_brakel on June 11, 2007, 07:49:09 PM
The PDGA tech standards do not require a disc to be retested merely because it is molded in another kind of plastic, but if there are issues with the stiffness of the plastic, sometimes the PDGA has requested that discs be retested. I think that was the deal with the CE discs.
Many Star Wraiths, by the way, are too stiff to pass the stiffness test. So many that it has become an issue between the PDGA and Innova. The PDGA has a list of discs that have failed in follow up testing and the Wraith is on the list.
That was my understanding also, that the CE discs got enough complaints about the stiffness that the PDGA requested them to be retested. I've never seen a list of discs that have failed follow-up testing, That would be interesting info. So, now what happens to the Star Wraith?
I don't know what is going to happen. The PDGA is almost as powerful as Innova these days.
Thanks, Bruce. I needed a laugh today! :D
Quote from: stpitner on June 12, 2007, 05:32:30 PM
I didn't look to see if I had a non dyed SL, but check out the Pro Starfire-L. Look at the hot stamp. See if you can read that they claim it's a PDGA approved disc... Guess somebody forgot something when it came to the approval process ;)
Ah, but that's a Pro Starfire, not a Pro Starfire-L, which differs from a Starfire, Batfire, Brushfire, and apparently the SL, Pro SL, XXL SL-L, and Innova's newest disc, the ShaddupAndBuyMe.
Sheesh.
Quote from: stpitner on June 12, 2007, 03:25:43 PM
I did a check of all current innova discs against the list, and I don't see the SL (already discussed obviously), the TeeBird (although the CE TeeBird is on there, so it might be ok), the Classic Aviar (I'm not sure what this was originally named), and the Pulsar (but this is ok because it's an Ultimate disc and approved by the Ultimate people). Everything else (including the stuff like the Zephyr, Condor, Jaguar) are all approved.
It's a little confusing with the Aviar because they have Aviar and Aviar Putter listed. So right there that could mean Classic Aviar and Aviar P&A, but it would leave the Aviar Driver out, or it could represent the Aviar Driver and the Aviar P&A leaving the Classic Aviar out. I'm also claiming that the Aviar XD (retooled) is = the XD.
So it's a little confusing, but it really is intriguing about that SL. Are TD's about to start getting really picky about you throwing that disc? I hope not, but it really does need to get official approval ASAP.
The joys of all sorts of different plastic molds...
I'm sure the SL is the only issue here. There have been so many throws using beadless, small bead and big bead variations of the Aviar in PDGA competition that if it came up as an issue now they would look ridiculous. You are correct that the Avair XD is just the good old XD. It was originally beadless but was retooled with a small bead. The TeeBird is on the list...Thunderbird approved 5-3-99.
As for the SL, I'm sure they thought that they would slip it by as the Starfire, and didn't really even notice themselves when they decided to market it as the SL. The approval fee for a disc is what...$200.00? The fact that Innova doesn't have to re-certify "X" versions of thier discs is silly when you start to consider that the fee is a measly $200.00 that they could easily pay. I'm sure the SL will be approved shortly.
are u going to turn people in your group in if you see them throwing an SL? i know i'm not and i doubt anybody else is so i think this whole conversation is mute.
Quote from: damonshort on June 12, 2007, 07:55:03 PM
Quote from: stpitner on June 12, 2007, 05:32:30 PM
I didn't look to see if I had a non dyed SL, but check out the Pro Starfire-L. Look at the hot stamp. See if you can read that they claim it's a PDGA approved disc... Guess somebody forgot something when it came to the approval process ;)
Ah, but that's a Pro Starfire, not a Pro Starfire-L, which differs from a Starfire, Batfire, Brushfire, and apparently the SL, Pro SL, XXL SL-L, and Innova's newest disc, the ShaddupAndBuyMe.
Sheesh.
fooey, I knew I should have posted a follow up post. the Pro Starfire IS the SL, just as the Pro Firebird is the FL.
Direct from the page for innova on the pro starfire http://www.innovadiscs.com/discs/prostarfire.html (http://www.innovadiscs.com/discs/prostarfire.html)
About the Starfire-L or SLThe Pro Starfire is a fast, dependable disc with a long straight flight and excellent glide. This disc is can add measurable distance to your drives. With its quickness, slight high speed turn, long glide and low fade, the Pro Starfire will fly a long way. Also known as the SL.
They only changed the name when they released it in Star plastic. Up until then, everything just said "starfire" and you had to look on the bottom to tell the difference. They changed the name so there would be less confusion over which mold you were getting.
Quote from: tacimala on June 12, 2007, 04:56:13 PM
Quote from: bruce_brakel on June 12, 2007, 01:09:22 PM
The Pulse was approved on June 29, 2006. The PDGA does not require reapproval every time the blend of plastic changes. But you will probably never see a Z-Pulse because it would be too stiff to pass the crush test.
I had heard this in the past too, but on the merch table it said on the box THIS IS NOT PDGA APPROVED.
That disc is not a Pulse. It is the 2007 One Disc Challenge prototype people have been calling the Splurge. That disc is not legal for PDGA competition yet.
Quote from: Mike S on June 13, 2007, 01:36:16 AM
They changed the name so there would be less confusion over which mold you were getting.
That may be the most ironic sentence ever posted on this message board. :D
Quote from: damonshort on June 13, 2007, 06:49:05 AM
Quote from: Mike S on June 13, 2007, 01:36:16 AM
They changed the name so there would be less confusion over which mold you were getting.
That may be the most ironic sentence ever posted on this message board. :D
I dont know... It used to be that you picked up a starfire and it could have been an SF, an SX, or an SL... And the name on the front of the disc was always the same. At least this way it's on the front of the disc where most people will actually look. This way if you buy a star Starfire, you know it will be the stable version. If you want something more understable, get an SL.
Quote from: Dan Michler on June 12, 2007, 07:59:04 PM
are u going to turn people in your group in if you see them throwing an SL? i know i'm not and i doubt anybody else is so i think this whole conversation is mute.
I think I would tell them that the SL is not approved for PDGA tournament use, if I saw anyone throwing it. I think I will announce it at IOS 3.
This is not an oversight on Innova's part. They know that the SL is not on the list because they never submitted it, and that it is not approved for PDGA tournament use.
The rule that a disc must be on the approved list to be used in a tournament is in the rule book.
just don't announce me as the whistle blower lol.. *runs and hides*
I called Innova West Coast & talked to a Susette, asking about when that disc was going to be submitted. She got into the whole Pro Starfire & SL are the same disc, but I told her the PDGA doesn't have it on the approved list so I can't throw it at IOS#3. She took my name & number & said they should have it approved by then. Probably a line of BS, but we'll see.
probably could have brought up that a Star SL is not a Star Starfire, therefore it's kinda blatantly obvious that the SL is a different disc, and "not on the list".
But that does make me think of some interesting things - does that mean the TeeRex-X and Wraith-X are not allowed? Confusing!
QuoteThe Starfire L, Firebird L, and TeeBird L were all approved and in production before we shortened the names to the abbreviations SL, FL, and TL. At this point Homberg decided this was a name change and the discs, which were already certified, had to be recertified. We market the Starfire L, the Firebird L, and TeeBird L as the original models with a shortened designation, not a name change like Sniper to Gremlin, which was a name change. Regardless, we have already recertified the FL, TL, and Gremlin. We will recertify the SL soon. In the meantime, if you play with a disc called Starfire L, it should be legal, as it was before the name abbreviation. If you play with a disc called SL, it may not be.
The above quote is from the 'Ask Dave D about Innova' thread on PDGA.com
Quote from: stpitner on June 13, 2007, 09:52:40 AM
probably could have brought up that a Star SL is not a Star Starfire, therefore it's kinda blatantly obvious that the SL is a different disc, and "not on the list".
But that does make me think of some interesting things - does that mean the TeeRex-X and Wraith-X are not allowed? Confusing!
Me thinks we overthink this one. The PDGA has a huge loophole that has been there for years and they refuse to take the simple step of closing the loophole to simplify every ones life. Imagine that?
All of this confusion goes away if the PDGA would certify each MOLD COMBINATION and designate them with a numeric or alphabetical code that has to be included on the disc somehow. That way each disc would have a PDGA code on it, and a big disc dork like me could pick it up and read "INN87-5" and instantly know it was a San Marino Roc. Change anything in the molding of a disc? Get it re-certified. It makes sense, more money for the PDGA, yada, yada, yada. Instead, the PDGA lets Innova run an Ontario Roc and a Rancho Roc that are different molds but grandfathers them under the San Marino Roc approval. Why? Who knows? That's the PDGA for ya!
Dave's answer to the question is factually incorrect. The Starfire-L was never approved. You can check the list for yourself.
What actually happened was, Innova submitted the Starfire for approval and it was approved. Then they tried to slide by on a new mold, what would eventually become the SL by calling it the Pro Starfire. Then they changed the name of the Pro Starfire to the Pro Starfire L.
Neither the SL nor the Starfire L has ever been submitted for approval. More importantly, neither is on the list. It is against the rules to throw a disc that is not on the list, no matter why it is not on the list.
I imagine that most am players assume that anything they buy as a golf disc from Innova or Discraft is approved. If you make an announcement at IOS3 that the Starfire-L and the SL are not competition legal, you will get 5 minutes of questions and consternation. If you announce instead that any disc not on the PDGA approved list is not competition legal you will get 45 minutes of questions and consternation. It might be better to draw attention to the list, but not enforce it until IOS4.
We really can't pick and choose which rules we are going to follow. There may be rules we have not noticed because they aren't in the rule book, but the one about only throwing discs on the list is right there at Rule 805(B)(12).
I sent a request for a waiver to the Tour Manager. We'll see what he says.
Request for Waiver of Rule 805(B)(12) at 2007 IOSeries Events as it Relates to the Starfire-L and the SL
It has recently come to my attention that the Starfire-L and the SL are not on the PDGA list of approved discs for tournament use. I checked with the Tech Standards Committee and the Rules Committee and am informed that this is not an oversight. The disc has never been submitted for approval. Under Rule 805(B)(12) disc is illegal.
Having played an A-NT recently where you were the Marshal, it also seems clear that the PDGA is not making an issue of this. One of our club members called Innova West and they indicated that they expected that this would get resolved soon. There does not seem to be any reason why this disc won't be approved as soon as it is submitted. We have been selling the disc as if it is PDGA approved.
For these reasons, on behalf of the IOSeries I am requesting a waiver of Rule 805(B)(12) as it relates to the Starfire-L and the SL at 2007 IOSeries events.
Bruce Brakel
Thanks for that Bruce. I doubt not being able to throw mine would've made any difference in my game, but I know a lot of people who disc golf seem to not be online and your announcement would be the first time they hear this, which is kinda what I think Kurt was trying to convey above. I'm all for playing by the rules and have no problem leaving my SL(ut) at home for Crystal Lake.
At the player meeting tonight TD Todd White declared the SL, Starfire L, "Splurge," and Turbo to be illegal for use at Am Nationals. The first two because they were never submitted to the PDGA for approval. The last one because Quest has not yet run the minimum number required for them to be used in a tournament.
Many players were shocked by the SL announcement.
Isn't it funny that a TD is making a bigger deal of this than the PDGA is, and it's the PDGA's rule. :rolleyes:
well, rule enforcement is up to the TDs & marshals...
Just asked my sales guy @ Innova East when the SL would be approved. His response was it has been for a looong time - its a Starfire according to him! :D
Quote from: bubbakick on June 14, 2007, 09:31:27 PM
Isn't it funny that a TD is making a bigger deal of this than the PDGA is, and it's the PDGA's rule. :rolleyes:
I think it's good that TDs are starting to enforce this. The only way this stupid controversy will get resolved is if TDs start not letting players use the disc, thus pissing off players, who will complain to Innova. At some point, if enough people complain, I have to think Innova will choose to submit the SL. And then, Voila, no more problem.
Dave Gentry, Tour Manager, replied to my request for a waiver of 805(C)(12) or whatever the rule is. He thinks the issue is going to be resolved this week. If not, he requests that we play by PDGA rules.
If a disc is not on the list, it is illegal. The QuestAT Turbo IS on the list. The Innova SL and Starfire L are not. Neither are the Buzzz SS and the Avenger SS.
Where can one find the officail list?
Quote from: J.R. on June 18, 2007, 08:27:53 PM
Where can one find the officail list?
http://www.pdga.com/documents/tech_standards/PDGA_approved_discs_and_targets.pdf (http://www.pdga.com/documents/tech_standards/PDGA_approved_discs_and_targets.pdf)
Quote from: Top Banana on June 18, 2007, 01:37:24 PM
Dave Gentry, Tour Manager, replied to my request for a waiver of 805(C)(12) or whatever the rule is. He thinks the issue is going to be resolved this week. If not, he requests that we play by PDGA rules.
If a disc is not on the list, it is illegal. The QuestAT Turbo IS on the list. The Innova SL and Starfire L are not. Neither are the Buzzz SS and the Avenger SS.
I'm not familiar with the Buzzz SS, but the Buzzz GT is not on the list, either. I'm not sure if adding "SS" to the end constitutes a name change. You could argue that it is the same as the "L" & "X" mold nonsense we have been complaining about throughout this thread. I'd get clarification from the PDGA on that one if it was me.
Of course, it's not me. Thank God! ;D
a SS buzzz was given in the am nats player pack- if it is not on the approved list that is bullshit that they would say you cannot throw the SL. i also recieved a SS avenger for playing in the sunking doubles at bowling green. if it is not on the list than that is bullshit as well.
Hypocrites over at DISCRAP if that is the case. I'm sure they DAMN well knew that the SS buzzz's and avenger's were not on the list but they went ahead and made it know about the SL issue.
You can make arguments about whether this disc or that disc needs to be submitted for testing to be approved, but the bottom line is PDGA Rule 805 (B) (12):
"B.The guidelines for golf discs are set forth in the PDGA Technical Standards Document. To be legal in PDGA competition, a disc must:
(12) have been certified for competition by the PDGA Technical Standards Committee."
You can find the list of certified discs by going to PDGA.com, click on "Information" and then look in the column of links on the right for the link to the list. Or you can click on the link given above, but then you won't learn how to find the list.
If the Buzzz GT is not on the list, you can add that to your list of discs that are not on the list. I have contacted the Tech Standards Committee to find out if those three Discraft discs are approved or not.
While the current "Is this disc an approved disc?" issue is quite annoying if you show up at a tournament and can't throw the latest disc that is your go to disc, it should put some pressure on the PDGA committees (rules and tech standards) to clarify the rules more as to when is a disc variant a new disc, whether that's a plastic tweak, mold tweak, or name tweak. In the meantime, it looks like the PDGA will be getting some extra cash for approvals that the manufacturers may not have been planning on spending.
btw I wouldn't necessarily blame Discraft for starting this.
A link for the approved discs is also on the Rules page of pdga.com
Mike I think Dana was getting at the fact that they pointed out Innova's fault by not allowing the SL at Am Nats, but didn't mention anything about their own discs that weren't on the list other than the prototype.
And how many Innova sponsored tournaments have you been to where they've pointed out that the SL is not on the list? :D I think Todd probably did not know about the SSs and GTs not being on the list. I didn't know. I'll let you all know what tech Standards says about that.
Quote from: Top Banana on June 19, 2007, 06:30:29 AMIf the Buzzz GT is not on the list, you can add that to your list of discs that are not on the list.
I think standards are essential, as is following the rules. From a practical standpoint, given this discussion, I think you ought to have a paper copy of the list available at the IOS events, particularly on Int./Rec. day.
If I looked at the list (I have) and saw a Buzzz listed (it is, but with only two 'z's -- hmmm) then I would assume the Buzzz GT would be covered under that same approval. Just like I would assume a KC Aviar and JK Aviar were covered under some Aviar approval as well. Or is it only suffixes that make a disc different?
Quote from: Top Banana on June 19, 2007, 08:03:34 AM
And how many Innova sponsored tournaments have you been to where they've pointed out that the SL is not on the list? :D I think Todd probably did not know about the SSs and GTs not being on the list. I didn't know. I'll let you all know what tech Standards says about that.
and how many Innova sponsored tournaments have you been to where they pointed out that a Discraft disc was not on the list? i think the point is that the whole thing was unusual.
i personally don't care about this whole issue and would have thrown an SL at Am Nats if I threw SL's without worrying about being 'turned in' because i know nobody that i played with would have cared one bit as it gives me no more advantage in the tournament than Cale spiking his putter after he tied Climo. the whole thing is petty and the issue being pointed out at the player meeting only takes away from the fun of the game which is what we're all there for. if it gave any competitive advantage at all then I'd be on board with this, but it does not, it is only a technicality.
The difference with the Aviar is that the JK Aviar and KC Aviar are the same molds in different plastics.
Quote from: krupicka on June 19, 2007, 08:34:25 AM
The difference with the Aviar is that the JK Aviar and KC Aviar are the same molds in different plastics.
How am I supposed to discern that from the list? Do I need to know the difference between a Buzzz, Buzz, and Buzzz GT to qualify to play rec. or int. in a B tier event? I don't see Ontario Roc on the list, and it's a common understanding that it flies differently than a Rancho Roc. Am I to assume it's the same mold and approved or a different mold and not approved?
Quote from: Dan Michler on June 19, 2007, 08:22:48 AM
the whole thing is petty and the issue being pointed out at the player meeting only takes away from the fun of the game which is what we're all there for. if it gave any competitive advantage at all then I'd be on board with this, but it does not, it is only a technicality.
Here, here. The Michler took his smart pills this morning!!
Well, the confusion is not really the fault of Innova or Discraft so much as it seems to be the fault of the PDGA for having strange rules about when a disc needs to be submitted for approval. Apparently, you can modify the mold, keep the same name, and not resubmit it, so long as you don't change any of the tech measurements, like diameter, rim length, etc. You can also modify the mold, add a prefix or suffix, and not resubmit it. But if you modify the mold and change the name, you have to resubmit it.
The Tech Standards Committee says all the Buzzz variants are approved. Both Avengers are approved. But they are regarding the SL as being both a modified mold and a name change from the approved Starfire.
Quote from: can't putt on June 19, 2007, 08:49:23 AM
Quote from: krupicka on June 19, 2007, 08:34:25 AM
The difference with the Aviar is that the JK Aviar and KC Aviar are the same molds in different plastics.
How am I supposed to discern that from the list? Do I need to know the difference between a Buzzz, Buzz, and Buzzz GT to qualify to play rec. or int. in a B tier event? I don't see Ontario Roc on the list, and it's a common understanding that it flies differently than a Rancho Roc. Am I to assume it's the same mold and approved or a different mold and not approved?
You can't. We're dealing with the PDGA here. It's lose-lose. ::)
I realize a lot of this started with disc companies trying new plastic and then making mold tweaks so that the disc with the same name would fly the same in a different plastic, but the rules are for disc approval really need to be cleaned up. I'm not sure how anyone can say that a Buzzz and Buzzz GT are the same disc. It sounds like Innova tried to make things more clear (with the SL) and then got nailed for it. With the current PDGA approval process, companies seem to be encouraged to make it more confusing for the player. Ugh.
Sorry for the angry post, the whole thing is pretty stupid. Hopefully the PDGA will clear things up and this will never be an issue. Also, I'll try to not post after having a few drinks.
I tend to agree with Dan on this one. People don't call each other for obvious foot faults. I don't think there's going to be a rash of calls made for production discs that have not been approved.
As a TD, I always have the list of approved discs at tournament central. They send me the list about two months before each tournament though so don't expect a disc that gets approved the week of the tournament to be on my list.
Suzette posted this on pdga.com
QuoteThis just in:
Quote:
Subject: Approval of Starfire L (SL)
Innova-Champion Discs, Inc.recently submitted the Starfire L (SL)for PDGA testing. This disc passed all PDGA tests, so I've added it to the list of PDGA-approved discs (attached).Test measurements are listed below.
DISContinuously,
Jeff Homburg (#1025)
Technical Standards Chair
It now shows on the Approved Discs List
Well, I guess that's the end of the fun then. Really, it's a bad deal when there is a huge loophole in the PDGA certification process. I'd really like to see them certify every mold. Change anything about the mold of the disc-pay $200.00 and send it to tech. That seems simple enough.
The plastics are a different can of worms. Right now a manufacturer can change the blend and never have the disc re-tested for stiffness. I think that the PDGA only re-tests discs when they get complaints. By then, the offending discs are already out there. I'm not sure what the answer is to that one. It seems like the manufacturers have a hard enough time keeping all their discs available, and holding up discs at their shop while they wait for the PDGA to OK each run for stiffness seems like it would be a burden on them.
Maybe Michler is right, maybe we make too much of this and take things too seriously. We might consider ourselves professional disc golfers, but we are really just Frisbee freaks playing for each others money on the weekends. If my Warlock is stiff as concrete, so what? Maybe we should just relax and have some fun.
Speaking of fun, did anyone see what Climo shot in round one today at the KCWO? He recovered in the second round, but he is still way out of the cash right now.
The stiffness issue with different blends is easy. The manufacturers should be checking it themselves. A machine that tests the stiffness of an object is pretty cheap...they all should have one in the shop.
Quote from: Jon Brakel on June 23, 2007, 07:34:13 PM
The stiffness issue with different blends is easy. The manufacturers should be checking it themselves. A machine that tests the stiffness of an object is pretty cheap...they all should have one in the shop.
Are you suggesting that the manufacturers should
voluntarily comply with the rules of the PDGA?
I only know one manufacturer well, but if he thought that he could make illegal discs and not get caught he would do it. Especially if the issue was stiffness because he loves hard, unflexible plastic. If no one is going to check up on him, he is going to make what he wants and to hell with PDGA standards.
What
WILL stop him is the fact that younger players seem to like softer, grippy plastic. Because of that the market for the hard, unflexible plastic seems to be declining and discs like the ESP FLX are popular in places I don't think Discraft even expected. So the market might take care of that issue.