I've been noticing a LOT of rules infractions in Intermediate, mostly regarding downed limbs and schule. There seems to be a broad misconception that anything can be moved out of the way between your lie and the hole as long as it's dead. I observed a discussion on hole 2 (old course) yesterday where a player had thrown behind a large limb that was possibly still partly attached to a tree. Two players were scrutinizing the limb to see if it was dead. I resolved the issue by telling them it didn't matter, it can't be moved as it is between the lie and the hole. In another instance, a disc came to rest about 3 feet into the schule. The player improperly marked his lie on the edge of the disc closest to the fairway which was 90° off the line of play. He then placed his foot outside the edge of his mini to give himself another 4 inches or so. The accumulated error plus his stretch allowed him a clear straddle putt to the basket. I was able to correct him before he threw, since he never moved the original disc. His putt was now obstructed and he missed. Also, a lot of Intermediates back into brush and hold branches out of their way. I'm sure the same is true in Rec. I'm not sure what the resolution is to this problem, but encourage everyone to clarify the rules for those who don't seem to understand. I know this is not often fun, but in the end makes the game more fair for everyone. Just my 2¢.
Of course this stuff happens in Rec. More often than in intermediate. Its actually better in AM IV as we generally have more experienced but less proficient golfers. (sorry about the slam my AM IV brethren and sistren) I was with a group of relatively inexperienced players first round. I reminded them of rules issues such as using a mini, taking 3 minutes to search for a lost disc etc as we went on. However, I did see some holding of the brush to allow a shot to get out of the woods. I did not call it and should have. I esepecially thought about it as I was torquing my body into a strange position to allow me to get a shot over some brush and thinking I was the only guy nearby who cared whether the brush was thrown over or smooshed under. I also held off from telling the guy who was on the cell phone, apparently working out an issue with his girlfiriend, for much of the round. He wasn't distracting or loud, but certainly was innaprpriate. It was a mistake to let that one go but I was just trying to focus on my own game.
Most players, including the ones I was with, react very positively when rules issues are brought up in a teaching manner rather than an aggresive manner. However, There are times when the blind are leading the blind in lower divisions because nobody on the card really knows what to do.
There really aren't enough volunteers or staff at IOS events to send marshalls out onto the course. However, when we go to Jericho and Fairfield this might be a decent idea. Get a handful of pro/advanced players to walk the course at least during the morning rounds to marshall the course. Ask the players on Int/Rec day to pitch in an extra 50 cents or a dollar to go towards buying lunch for the volunteers.
Backing into the woods, tromping down of stuff in the way, fudging the foot at the mark, etc. all happen in every division. It even happens in the elite pro ranks. You just have to call people when they do it.
its tough to call people on rules infractions during a round. you risk creating an awkward or hostile situation which can totally mess with your focus for the rest of your round. i usually save it for situations which are extreme or ones where i know the whole group is on the same page.
that being said, its better if you nut up and call people on a rules infraction if you see it. its the only real way to teach some people that the rules actually are followed by some players.
another one i thought of is the clock on your 3 minutes to search for a lost disc isn't supposed to start until all players are helping search. i've had several dudes who for whatever reason dont' think they need to help look, but are the 1st to speak up and say its been 3 minutes.
I'm with Dan on the part that it could make for a very awkward and possibly hostile situation after the fact. I tend to make mention of it after the fact as a casual warning over an official warning so that it doesn't break concentration or create a weird situation. I've never had to take it further than that and I think everyone improves when it is handled in a similar fashion.
Another thing I noticed yesterday in the morning: Hole 17 was a CTP for a club membership. A guy in my group parked that hole. His disc was maybe a foot and a half away from the pole, however, the flag was about 6 inches from the hole, with a name already on it. No big deal. Well we continue playing, and after we play 18 and the alternates and get back to hole 1 or 2 (whichever hole was right next to it) we notice that the flag has been moved. It was now about 5 feet away. What the hell? Now granted, the eventual winner won with a leaner, but who would move the flag farther away from a previous persons CTP? This couldn't have been an individual thing. The whole group must have seen this happen.
I agree with Dan's comment as well. David makes a valid point, though, that rules infractions pointed out in a teaching manner are usually well recieved. I suspect in Open and Advanced this may be less the case as the players are likely more familiar with the rules. I don't think we should lose the opportunity to educate in Int. and Rec. I don't advocate being a rules nazi, but rather a rules teacher.
I don't believe I've ever stroked anyone for anything during play. I have called a few foot faults usually knowing that they aren't going to get seconded in Rec or Int. The first time I ever played with David I told him after he threw his second drive on 18 at Fairfield that he wasn't hitting his mark on his fairway run ups. But I didn't officially warn him because I knew he was making an effort to hit it. I sometimes call foot faults when someone who keeps missing their mark or tee pad throws a really bad shot. The penalty for the first foot fault is a warning and re-throw so if someone seconds it, it is a reminder/learning experience and a mulligan at the same time. My usual line when playing Rec though is "As you play more tournaments you may get grouped with someone who is really particular about the rules. So, you should know that [insert rules violation here] is against the rules and [whatever the penalty is] is the penalty for doing it." I've told quite a few Rec players this when they fail to hole out (by slapping the chains or touching the side of the basket) on the next tee pad. This tells the player two things: 1) You know the rules and 2) You're watching them. If they were actually trying to cheat this usually stops it dead. If they did not know they appreciate the rules lesson and that I did not officially call them on it.
I agree that there is no need to stroke somebody unless something is repeated. I had no desire to stroke anybody yesterday. I think I missed the teaching moement to tell the others about a rules infraction because I was too tied up in my own game. Jon,and others have done the same with me. I think I am strongly left side dominant. I know I am left eyed and know I am left handed. I have tended to step about 9" to the left of my mark when doing a run up. Their gentle advisements have helped me hit my mark. I think the issue is even a bigger deal in junior divisions. There are widely varied impressions of what the rules really say. Further, a really young and small player may feel too intimidated to make a call or may make the call but get overrulled by a group that is incorrect.
In most cases, a foot fault gets an extra unofficial warning because no one is watching and therefore their are no seconds. Dave had been consistently missing his mark on run-ups and started being called on it. He worked on hitting it and now he hits it every time. Many times if you talk to someone politely on the side and explain the rules, they get it. Often times I have had to explain the rules on practice throws, taking 1m in from OB, etc. Pretty much they all have been appreciative. The only time it has been tense was when I asked someone if what they were smoking was illegal and if so to put it away. Fortunately, about half a hole later they apologized for having put me in that position to say something.
On the 3 minutes for lost disc,"Two players or an official must note when the timing of three minutes begins."(803.11.A) You can't say it's been three minutes if no one started a timer or noted the time. If players are requested to help look for a disc and refuse, it is grounds for a courtesy warning(801.01C).
I watched the Junior card for a hole when we were near them during the first round yesterday and asked Diana if that was a casual as one kid was throwing (w/o marking his lie) ahead of the others still on the teepad. I really wish we had an extra knowledgeable volunteer to walk with the Juniors so that they learn the game correctly.
Quote from: krupicka on July 09, 2007, 12:10:49 PM
On the 3 minutes for lost disc,"Two players or an official must note when the timing of three minutes begins."(803.11.A) You can't say it's been three minutes if no one started a timer or noted the time. If players are requested to help look for a disc and refuse, it is grounds for a courtesy warning(801.01C).
We had one of these yesterday. I intentionally lolligaged my way over to the area where the disc went out to give the guy more time. I got there looked for a very short while and then said three minutes were running. The others really didn't reply. When a little over three minutes had run and nobody would say the guy got shortchanged, I called it. He had no problem re-throwing. He was just bummed because he really didn't want to lose his disc. Everybody looked, nobody found. Even the guy on the cell phone looked while continuing his conversation.
Yesterday I played with 2 inexperienced players who didn't know that there were such detailed rules. I used it as a teaching experience. There were actions that they tried hard to change and there were others that were habits that kept popping up every few holes, especially in the afternoon when we were all tired. After reminding them both about different infractions, I decided to let it go. I didn't want to win because of penalty strokes (that may be an exaggeration.....I didn't keep track of the number of infractions).
My point is, if players aren't informed of the rules, they can't learn them. Jon taught me rules of tournament play right away and I started practicing them, even though I was playing by myself so that following the rules was second nature.
Quote from: WkeBrd3 on July 09, 2007, 11:22:01 AM
Another thing I noticed yesterday in the morning: Hole 17 was a CTP for a club membership. A guy in my group parked that hole. His disc was maybe a foot and a half away from the pole, however, the flag was about 6 inches from the hole, with a name already on it. No big deal. Well we continue playing, and after we play 18 and the alternates and get back to hole 1 or 2 (whichever hole was right next to it) we notice that the flag has been moved. It was now about 5 feet away. What the hell? Now granted, the eventual winner won with a leaner, but who would move the flag farther away from a previous persons CTP? This couldn't have been an individual thing. The whole group must have seen this happen.
We started on hole 15 and when we got to 17, the CTP flag had a name on it and it was not stuck in the ground but laying under the basket. We had no idea what to make of it, but since none of us qualified anyway, we didn't worry about it. Something weird happened.
guther's group threw the exact wrong direction off of a teepad the 2nd round and holed out on another basket. they had to continue playing from the basket they holed out on back to the basket they should have been playing to. so they made a 330 foot hole into a 550 foot hole after already taking 2-3 shots.
i'm only telling this story because it was so awesome and because it was Guther which makes it that much more awesome ;)
I agree with you Kurt on the number of rules violations. I felt there were more yesterday than at IOS 1 or 3 (at least in my morning group). They thought you could move a picnic table if it was in your way. Then a few holes later irony struck and my disc landed directly under a picnic table. They said I could take it 5 feet behind the lie. And then they didn't believe me that unplayable lie got a penalty stroke. Later a guy threw his mini. I think maybe there were more people there yesterday who don't regularly play tournaments. But I actually mentioned to someone after the round that I felt like I had seen more rules violations. All of them were innocent cases of not knowing the rules. I didn't see anyone try to cheat.
Anyway, I would just add from the other perspective my experience as a noob. Last fall I played my first PDGA tournament. On one hole after I missed my putt I picked up my approach disc and tossed it back to my bag. I didn't think anything of it since it was only like 10 feet and it was direclty away from the basket. Younk was on my card and I thought he handled it really well. He was kind enough not to stroke me for it. He just asked if it was my first tournament and when I said it was he told me that that was not allowed. He used the "I don't care, but others you play with might call you on it" tact as mentioned above. I truly did appreciate it and felt a bit silly for not knowing the rules. I think most of these people are where I was less than a year ago and the gentle educational approach will be greeted positively almost every time. I even think that event was part of what made me click on the Rules link on Pdga.com the next time I saw it.
Note that this was Greg Guther's group, not Steven Guther's group. I started a thread to discuss the rule at pdga.com. http://www.pdga.com/msgboard/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=711874&Main=711874#Post711874 (http://www.pdga.com/msgboard/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=711874&Main=711874#Post711874). Personally I think the rule is too harsh in that situation. I think it was written for situations where you hole out on a target that is near the real target. Then you would throw an upshot and hit your putt for a two stroke penalty. I think that rule should be rewritten so that if the group realizes what they've done before the next tee off then they should play the correct hole and add a two throw penalty and throw out the score for the unintentionally made up hole.
I was on Steven's card the second round & he went out of his way to point out he wasn't THAT Guther. :) Seemed fairly pleasant to play with.
Quote from: J.R. on July 09, 2007, 12:22:31 PM
Quote from: WkeBrd3 on July 09, 2007, 11:22:01 AM
Another thing I noticed yesterday in the morning: Hole 17 was a CTP for a club membership. A guy in my group parked that hole. His disc was maybe a foot and a half away from the pole, however, the flag was about 6 inches from the hole, with a name already on it. No big deal. Well we continue playing, and after we play 18 and the alternates and get back to hole 1 or 2 (whichever hole was right next to it) we notice that the flag has been moved. It was now about 5 feet away. What the hell? Now granted, the eventual winner won with a leaner, but who would move the flag farther away from a previous persons CTP? This couldn't have been an individual thing. The whole group must have seen this happen.
We started on hole 15 and when we got to 17, the CTP flag had a name on it and it was not stuck in the ground but laying under the basket. We had no idea what to make of it, but since none of us qualified anyway, we didn't worry about it. Something weird happened.
If I had to guess I would say that the flag probably blew/fell over then blew on the ground out past five feet of the hole and the next group just figured it was close to where is was supposed to be and marked it. We had some weird wind at tournament central yesterday. It wasn't blowing very hard but then about a half dozen times we had a huge burst of wind that sent the bug spray cans, sun screen cans and other objects that are normally stationary flying across TC.
If anyone wants to walk with the Jrs at any of the IOS events we could compensate with a couple of discs or some brass. If a PDGA Official wanted to walk the course in an official capacity we could compensate in a similar manner.
Quote from: Jon Brakel on July 09, 2007, 12:59:47 PM
Quote from: J.R. on July 09, 2007, 12:22:31 PM
Quote from: WkeBrd3 on July 09, 2007, 11:22:01 AM
Another thing I noticed yesterday in the morning: Hole 17 was a CTP for a club membership. A guy in my group parked that hole. His disc was maybe a foot and a half away from the pole, however, the flag was about 6 inches from the hole, with a name already on it. No big deal. Well we continue playing, and after we play 18 and the alternates and get back to hole 1 or 2 (whichever hole was right next to it) we notice that the flag has been moved. It was now about 5 feet away. What the hell? Now granted, the eventual winner won with a leaner, but who would move the flag farther away from a previous persons CTP? This couldn't have been an individual thing. The whole group must have seen this happen.
We started on hole 15 and when we got to 17, the CTP flag had a name on it and it was not stuck in the ground but laying under the basket. We had no idea what to make of it, but since none of us qualified anyway, we didn't worry about it. Something weird happened.
If I had to guess I would say that the flag probably blew/fell over then blew on the ground out past five feet of the hole and the next group just figured it was close to where is was supposed to be and marked it. We had some weird wind at tournament central yesterday. It wasn't blowing very hard but then about a half dozen times we had a huge burst of wind that sent the bug spray cans, sun screen cans and other objects that are normally stationary flying across TC.
If anyone wants to walk with the Jrs at any of the IOS events we could compensate with a couple of discs or some brass. If a PDGA Official wanted to walk the course in an official capacity we could compensate in a similar manner.
Ok, I can explain a little bit more on what happened with the CTP for hole #17. It was moved because of Greg Guther's group in the morning round (a group that I was a part of, but just for the laugh factor I say it was Greg's group). Another player that was playing on hole 2 told us after seeing our lies that the flag was actually not marking a CTP lie and that we should move it. I did not look at the flag myself (to see if there was anything written on it), but the other guys decided to give the CTP to the guy in (Greg's) group that was the closest. My thoughts are that the guy that was on hole 2 saw it much earlier when he played 17 where it was just laying down and not marking anything, was now at hole 2 (6 holes later), and thought that it was still down. The CTP flag was being blown around a little bit, but it was all very confusing at that moment. Since (Greg's) group thought that the other player knew what he was talking about, the flag was moved.
I'm glad that it all worked out in the end.
During the playoff for first place in AM IV, we were on the 3rd playoff hole, and I had already missed my shot at the deuce. Then Bill went up for his putt, but after he marked and took away his drive (which was pretty much parked, only 6-8 feet away), he tossed his driver disc back to his bag. Suddenly it flashed through my mind that I should call that as a practice throw on him and try to make him take a stroke and move on to the next playoff hole. I decided not to call it because it was my own fault for missing a 5-8 foot putt on the last hole of the round causing me to be in the playoff for first place as it was, so I wasn't going to do something ticky-tack to try to work to my advantage. Plus I don't know if he could have been stroked or just warned. It's too bad that all 3 of us couldn't go home with a trophy disc, but I do know that I'll proudly display the 2nd place trophy right next to the 1st place one. Besides - the blue on the 2nd place trophy looks cooler than the red/yellow mix on the 1st place trophy :) The only thing I didn't get to go do was to go home and proudly show the pitner brother's taking 1st in Am IV and Rec, ah well!
define 'tossed his driver back to his bag'
as in, the bag was probably about 5-10 feet away, he stepped towards the bag (away from the lie) after picking up the disc and threw it (like a normal disc throw, not flipped or anything like that) back to his bag. It wasn't like the Cale spike... but I do know that he was probably not thinking clearly as he obviously knew that all he had to do was make a short putt and he won the division.
Mike K- you probably witnessed it, but if it was something that could be considered a practice throw, my feeling is that you weren't going to call it unless I did. I opted not to.
First a practice throw has to be over 2 meters or toward the basket so it sounds like this was not a violation.
Practice Throw: During a round, the
projection of a disc of a distance greater
than two meters, or of any distance
toward a target, intentional or not, which
does not change the player's lie, either
because it did not occur from the teeing
area or the lie, or because the player had
already thrown competitively from the
teeing area or the lie. Throws that are rethrown
in accordance with the rules are
not practice throws. Provisional throws
made pursuant to 803.01 C and 803.01
D (3) are not practice throws. A player
shall receive a penalty for a practice throw
in accordance with sections 803.01 B or
804.02 A (2).
I admit I was walking back to tourney central and watched from a distance to verify the outcome. But at 5 ft, he was ok.
I have a question. 803.01 B says that the violation must be observed by at least two players or an official (I assume other rules have a similar requirement). In a two person playoff how do you call someone out by yourself, or should there always be an official in such cases?
At Rockford it was a three way tie for AMIV. Usually if there is a two person playoff, an additional person is sent with the group to take care of those duties.
alright, cool, then I don't have to feel bad about it. It did go in a direction away from the basket, so all is good :)
Without actually looking at the rules, I'm remembering that a practice throw during the round is a stroke without a warning. A practice throw after the two minute warning but before the round starts is a warning first with a stroke for any subsequent offense.
A guy in my group landed a putt on top of the basket, walked up, and putted out by placing his mini in the basket. I did not call it as a rules violation because that sort of thing does not affect the score, but I did tell him not to do that with strangers at Worlds where everyone is always wound way too tight.
I've heard about foot faults being called in Am IV. Diana had one on the New Course where she was like three steps past the flags and she took the call in an appropriate way. We've been playing a couse that had front flags and back flags until recently when they put in concrete tees and she probably thought in a heat strokey way that the flags were the back flags.
This happened to me back in the Year of the Safari and then again this year at Am Nats. A guy slipped off the end of the tee and got a horrible throw. Seeing the horrible throw I quickly called the foot fault. Instead of seconding it the guy got all huffy that I'd be calling him for a foot fault on what was already a horrible throw. :-) So I didn't bother to explain the rule to either of those guys. But at Am Nats, a couple of holes later I slipped off the tee and got a horrible throw. Another guy in my group called the foot fault on me. I waited for a second for someone to second it, no one did, so I seconded it and took my rethrow with the warning. I told the guy who called it, "I assume you called that for my benefit, but if I foot fault again, I'll take the stroke penalty, so don't hesitate to call it against me." I told my scorekeeper to mark the warning section of the rulebook with a foot fault, too.
I understand the "don't want to make an awkward situation on the course" argument for not hitting people up with rules, but screw that, especially in Intermediate. I had to call a guy at Geneseo for several things he was doing, and didn't feel too bad about it at all. That crap is for Rec players. If you're playing PDGA tournaments in Int. you should know the damn rules, period.
Gotta say I love the whole dead limbs can be moved, regardless of place. What a joke. You can't move anything between your lie & the hole, living or dead. ::)
just out of curiosity, I was on some random hole at Rockford, and I was in a tight spot just inside a bush area. I approached my lie from the side (really the only way to approach it), and for those that have met me you all know that I'm a big guy. As I'm angling in there, a branch breaks either on my back or my head (I forget). It was completely incidental, and no one was really paying attention to me anyway. The sideways angle I was coming in from would have placed the branch to the side and barely in front of my lie. Would something like this get me in trouble with some people or would it be called as not intentional? Any smaller size guy would have no problem getting a foot in behind the lie, so it's not like it was really an unplayable lie.
*sigh* so tough to make black and white lines in a grayscale world.
Damaging the course on purpose is a 2 throw penalty with a chance for DQ. In your case, that does not apply as it was inadvertent. Also, an unplayable lie can only be called by the player taking the lie. No one else can force you to take it.
From your description you were ok. Next time, just don't throw there. ;)
I had a few rules issues crop up this weekend.
On Sunday, second round, a guy in my group got the 50/50 CTP. When marking his drive, someone in our group said to "make sure you mark your drive with your mini and then mark in front of your mini, it gives you like an extra 6 inches". The other 2 of us in the group corrected this, but the guy was dead serious and surprised you couldn't do that.
On Saturday, I took a six on a hole. I know another in my group got a six, I am sure of it. He called out five. I couldn't remember where all six of his shots were exactly because I was busy making six of my own. I do know that we alternated throws, though. I've had this happen before more than once. I hate cheaters.
On Sunday, in the second round where there are lots of tees and baskets within earshot of each other, there was an adjacent group that refused to shut up while we were teeing off. We commented more than loud enough for them to hear. They kept talking, very loudly. Two of us shanked our drives because of an outburst right as we were throwing. We were having too much fun (thanks to both groups on Sunday for a great time!) to really worry about it so we moved on, but WTF.
I guess if I was more competetive, I'd care more, but I figure that Karma is a bitch and it all evens out in the end.
Quote from: discmonkey on July 10, 2007, 09:01:55 AM
On Saturday, I took a six on a hole. I know another in my group got a six, I am sure of it. He called out five. I couldn't remember where all six of his shots were exactly because I was busy making six of my own. I do know that we alternated throws, though. I've had this happen before more than once. I hate cheaters.
If you are not sure that they said the correct score, the best thing to do is ask, "Are you sure?" and talk through the hole with the player to check. (You drove and landed where? then what?) Even if you can't be sure on that hole. You can be certain that he won't try it again as he would be aware that someone is paying attention.
This is like voting. Speak up when you have the chance or you can't bitch.
Yeah. It may be an honest mistake too... I think it was Saturday I was corrected on a hole & after rethinking my shots thru I agreed and thanked dude.
Quote from: krupicka on July 10, 2007, 09:12:59 AM
Quote from: discmonkey on July 10, 2007, 09:01:55 AM
On Saturday, I took a six on a hole. I know another in my group got a six, I am sure of it. He called out five. I couldn't remember where all six of his shots were exactly because I was busy making six of my own. I do know that we alternated throws, though. I've had this happen before more than once. I hate cheaters.
If you are not sure that they said the correct score, the best thing to do is ask, "Are you sure?" and talk through the hole with the player to check. (You drove and landed where? then what?) Even if you can't be sure on that hole. You can be certain that he won't try it again as he would be aware that someone is paying attention.
I had that happen last IOS at Crystal Lake, and a simple "Are you sure?" was all it took for the guy to figure out he was wrong. After the conversation, I was pretty sure he just forgot and wasn't trying to cheat. Sometimes, people do make honest mistakes.
At the Roselle tournament Jon, in his heat exhausted state, miscounted a score on a hole. I asked him if he was sure and he recounted, changed it and thanked me. It helped that I knew Jon (at least from the boards and as a TD) and knew he wouldn't cheat. In short, I agree with krupika's approach. Cheaters won't try it again and honest people will appreciate it.
ok got a question ( too lazy to look up)
playing in threesome and a girlfriend is keeping the score
---------
now when i keep score i go next to the person and announce their name, they say their score and i move on to the next guy
now most of the time - shouldnt you announce the order also before the card goes back in bag
--------------
now back to the issue - say ive been going first for 4-5 holes in a row
the score keeper asks the scores and i miss the fact someone had a better score than i did
i go up and drive out of turn
what is the penalty ?
am i to blame or does blame lie with the scorekeeper who should be announcing the order ?
Throwing out of turn is a courtesy violation. The first instance is a warning and subsequent courtesy violations of any type are strokes. There is no stipulation that the scorekeeper must announce the order, although many do and it is appreciated.
Stroking someone for throwing out of order is really stupid. Never go there. In all the years I've played tournaments I've never seen anyone stroke anyone for throwing out of order but in Iowa some guy on the first tee threatened to stroke me if I threw out of order. He played like crap the rest of the day.
I know we often go out of order for all sorts of "speed of play" reasons. But I could not find that weasel wording anywhere. Anyone know where that is?
I must have glanced over it. 801.02.C "After all the players in the group have teed off, the player farthest from the hole (the away player) throws first. To facilitate flow of play, a player who is not farthest away may play next if the away player consents."
Therefore, if you have been teeing off out of order for the past N holes. The "away" player must have consented. No courtesy violation here.
Quote from: Top Banana on July 17, 2007, 06:32:49 AM
Stroking someone for throwing out of order is really stupid. Never go there. In all the years I've played tournaments I've never seen anyone stroke anyone for throwing out of order but in Iowa some guy on the first tee threatened to stroke me if I threw out of order. He played like crap the rest of the day.
I 2nd Bruce's comments on this one. There IS a difference between being a resonable enforcer of the rules & being a rule Nazi. Don't be anal.
If someone tried to stroke me for throwing out of turn off the tee I would make sure their round was not very fun from then on out.
What's worse? Someone that stands behind the tee pad for 2 minutes because they don't know that it's their turn or someone that thinks it is their turn and just goes up to throw to keep speed of play? (This is rhetorical really, I'm not looking for an answer here)
I think its fine to be a rules Nazi when you're preventing someone from getting a competitive edge as a result, eg: dead but not detached limbs, holding back branches or brush, foot faults, etc.
Nobody gets a competitive edge by being throwing out of turn on the tee. If you think its your turn & they're not running up then question it. If you feel its too late and its important to you say something after the group's teed off.
There is a competitive edge to throwing later.
Quote from: mirth on July 17, 2007, 08:40:18 AM
I think its fine to be a rules Nazi when you're preventing someone from getting a competitive edge as a result, eg: dead but not detached limbs, holding back branches or brush, foot faults, etc.
Nobody gets a competitive edge by throwing out of turn on the tee.
Quote from: krupicka on July 17, 2007, 08:44:13 AM
There is a competitive edge to throwing later.
Exactly. If some idiot wants to be your wind-dummy, then let him.
for some, I guess. me - not so much. my point really was that if you feel its your turn and its not infringing on the person currently on the tee then its within your right to verify the order is correct.
I personally just let it go and it tends to get corrected before the next hole anyhow. I also don't mind being last on the tee...
I guess I like to talk too much...I always ask "who is up?" when it is my turn. That way whoever I shot better than the last hole has to look at me and say "you." >:D It also keeps me from throwing out of turn. ;)
Of course when I'm last on the card I shut up. :-X
The speed of play rule does not come into play off the tee, but again it's a "who cares" violation.
Last year was my first year playing tournaments. At IL States I was stroked for teeing off out of turn (first violation). Since I didn't know the rule, I said "OK". That's when I decided to learn the rules. ;)
I agree it's asinine to stroke someone for throwing out of turn, but the rule is there and should be understood.
Quote from: can't putt on July 17, 2007, 11:30:03 AM
Last year was my first year playing tournaments. At IL States I was stroked for teeing off out of turn (first violation). Since I didn't know the rule, I said "OK". That's when I decided to learn the rules. ;)
I agree it's asinine to stroke someone for throwing out of turn, but the rule is there and should be understood.
Hopefully you will always remember who he is and never cut him any slack! O0