I found it rather interesting that at Channahon the Recreational division was composed of 7 PDGA members and 35 non members. The previous Sunday at Aurora there were 22 PDGA members and 14 non members in the same division. Now four of those non-members in the Rec division at Channy played intermediate at the IOS (two by choice, two by calcd rating), but it still doesn't account for the huge difference in the ratio of members to non-members. Is it purely the result of the IOS making sure non-members play in the correct division, or is it something else?
Just thinking aloud...
Part of it is that we have not had much unsanctioned disc golf for the lower divisions in IOS country, and we have had a lot of sanctioned tournaments for lower division players. We have created a PDGA culture. It used to be in the I-80 corridor the lower day was always unsanctioned, so they have a different culture. There might also be a broader sociological thing going on that I could not discuss in a nonpejorative manner. Dan could explain that succinctly. ;D
I hate non-PDGA culture.
Example: Practicing for the 2nd round, I'm throwing multiple shots and end up leaving a disc. Didn't realize until the 2 minute warning and it was too late to go back to try & retrieve it. It was in the fairway and pink, couldn't miss it. I'm figuring it'll show up at tourney central after the round....nope. At an IOS, it would've made it's way back to me.
those pinkies are not treating you well lately Mukey!
almost wish you could make a PDGA members only Rec and a whole separate division for non-pdga members so that they can all duke it out with one another.
You can. There is nothing in either of the rules books or sanctioning agreements preventing a TD from telling non-PDGA members, "You can play the top level division or play trophy only."
I think a good amount of that is that the IOS has been offering sanctioned tournaments for lower divisions (all divisions, really) since 2003 and Gary just started to offer them in 2006, I think.
I had several very hate filled e-mails at the beginning of the IOS telling me that we should run our tournaments just like Gary does because he's been doing it for so long. However, when Brett, Bruce and I started talking about what we wanted to do with the IO that then became the IOS we all agreed that offering all divisions as sanctioned events was one of the things we wanted to do.
It has worked with great success and in the beginning we were seeing an overwhelming majority of lower players were not members. If you build it, they will come...
I think there are several factors.
#1. The local player base around here promotes the PDGA and ecourages people to join the PDGA. A big part of that is an organized club and most are actively on the internet.. Having a $5.00 discount helps. I've told many players at league and tournaments to join the PDGA. There are many guys doing the same thing.
#2 A lot of the lower division players at the IOS seem to be traveling to many of the local Chicago Suburb tournaments so it's worth it to join.
#3 There are quite a few guys that are playing all the IOS events so it's worth it to join.
From a non-PDGA member i understand the benefits and advantages of joining the PDGA. I intend to, but money is tight. I just started playing DG this june, but intend on making the IOS a regular event for me in the future. The $5.00 will add up. This game is great, even at mid-level rec play...
Quote from: ChrisPUTTS on September 24, 2007, 08:04:08 PM
From a non-PDGA member i understand the benefits and advantages of joining the PDGA. I intend to, but money is tight. I just started playing DG this june, but intend on making the IOS a regular event for me in the future. The $5.00 will add up. This game is great, even at mid-level rec play...
This is the best time of year to join if you plan on playing more events this year. You get the rest of the year & all 2008. You can send a check & save $5.00 or join online at the store & save a few dollars.
Plus that $5 may be more next year. I know they have been talking about it, but I don't know if they have decided to do it yet.
Quote from: krupicka on September 24, 2007, 01:09:09 PM
You can. There is nothing in either of the rules books or sanctioning agreements preventing a TD from telling non-PDGA members, "You can play the top level division or play trophy only."
That would be an interesting idea...
Quote from: Jon Brakel on September 25, 2007, 08:56:43 AM
Quote from: krupicka on September 24, 2007, 01:09:09 PM
You can. There is nothing in either of the rules books or sanctioning agreements preventing a TD from telling non-PDGA members, "You can play the top level division or play trophy only."
That would be an interesting idea...
As a newbie to the area I that this would be cool for at least one tournament. I always seem to come in at the bottom of the payout or miss it by one or two in any tournament I play in. And there are always three or four guys ahead of me that are not PDGA members. I think this would be good so the ones that are paying the money to be a PDGA member and coming out to ten or so tournaments don't get bumped down in the payouts or even all the way out of the payouts, by those who only play in one or two sanctioned tournaments a year and don't join the PDGA. It sound like a good idea to me at least.
There was not any blatant non-member bagging at the Aurora IOS. In Rec an 857 rated player came in second by one throw to a non-member. They both had one rec rated round and one advanced rated round, which is typical for the winner in Rec. In Intermediate a PDGA member won.
I really don't like the idea of making non-members play in the highest division because I think that would inhibit growth in attendance. But I do like the idea of paying attention and letting non-members know when it is time they have to move up for IOS tournaments.
Also, you add in the fact that most of the non-PDGA members playing tournaments are beginners to organized disc golf (except the Esquivel family), it is only natural for them to want to try out their first few at the rec level. How better to get people to come back for more organized golf then to give them a shot at getting into cash at their first few tournaments.
And as stated above, the players in the REC division and TDs at the IOS tournaments know when somemone is "sandbagging" and from my experience, most who become a "sandbagger" in the REC division usually will move up when others let them know. Not to mention the GURU's at IOS Central have that wonderful Tyler W. to always calculate those rounds to prevent that from happening, anyways.
I think there's two different situations to analyze here:
1) A single day tournament
2) A series of tournaments like the IOS.
With the IOS, you have a chance of letting a person play in Rec, they do great, then you can say "ok, now you need to move up for the next IOS", and the impact is not as great. For the single day tournaments, unless you're tracking all of the surrounding area local tournaments, you don't have a "ok, we'll get you moved up next time" because there is no next time until perhaps next year (if that).
Perhaps you could use Bruce's idea of "half-in" for the payouts on non-pdga members. That would certainly be incentive to join the PDGA!
Unfortunately, I don't think you could ever completely avoid bagging because even if you restrict a division to PDGA-members only, you'll still get someone that just joined that is unrated and won't be positioned properly until after they get some sanctioned rounds in.
One other thought - I've loved AM IV this year so far because everyone that plays in it already has a pre-established rating of 835 or lower. With the new Enthusiast division next year the possibility of bagging is going to come back with an even easier field to whump on unfortunately.
AMIV has an upper limit of 850 next year. Get that drive of yours 6" higher and you'll be there.
Quote from: krupicka on September 25, 2007, 01:39:05 PM
AMIV has an upper limit of 850 next year. Get that drive of yours 6" higher and you'll be there.
Yes, but what Pitner is saying is that since it is no longer a shadow division it is also no longer protected from unrated/non-member players. I would be in favor of protecting the lower divisions by making non-pdga members play trophy only but I am only one vote in the IOS consortium. Let your voice be heard now if you support this idea.
Quote from: stpitner on September 25, 2007, 01:35:16 PM
Unfortunately, I don't think you could ever completely avoid bagging because even if you restrict a division to PDGA-members only, you'll still get someone that just joined that is unrated and won't be positioned properly until after they get some sanctioned rounds in.
Don't know if it's still that way, but when Mid-Nationals was at Highbridge as an X-Tier you had to have a certain amount of rated rounds in order to participate. not saying to run the IOS that way, just an idea.
Quote from: Jon Brakel on September 25, 2007, 02:14:47 PM
Yes, but what Pitner is saying is that since it is no longer a shadow division it is also no longer protected from unrated/non-member players. I would be in favor of protecting the lower divisions by making non-pdga members play trophy only but I am only one vote in the IOS consortium. Let your voice be heard now if you support this idea.
I'd support non-PDGA members being restriced to Trophy Only
Quote from: Mukey on September 25, 2007, 02:28:38 PM
Quote from: stpitner on September 25, 2007, 01:35:16 PM
Unfortunately, I don't think you could ever completely avoid bagging because even if you restrict a division to PDGA-members only, you'll still get someone that just joined that is unrated and won't be positioned properly until after they get some sanctioned rounds in.
Don't know if it's still that way, but when Mid-Nationals was at Highbridge as an X-Tier you had to have a certain amount of rated rounds in order to participate. not saying to run the IOS that way, just an idea.
Quote from: Jon Brakel on September 25, 2007, 02:14:47 PM
Yes, but what Pitner is saying is that since it is no longer a shadow division it is also no longer protected from unrated/non-member players. I would be in favor of protecting the lower divisions by making non-pdga members play trophy only but I am only one vote in the IOS consortium. Let your voice be heard now if you support this idea.
I'd support non-PDGA members being restriced to Trophy Only
Mid-Nationals is unique as it is the only Major that has ratings protected divisions so they kind of had to decide on some standards.
Quote from: Jon Brakel on September 25, 2007, 02:14:47 PM
Quote from: krupicka on September 25, 2007, 01:39:05 PM
AMIV has an upper limit of 850 next year. Get that drive of yours 6" higher and you'll be there.
Yes, but what Pitner is saying is that since it is no longer a shadow division it is also no longer protected from unrated/non-member players. I would be in favor of protecting the lower divisions by making non-pdga members play trophy only but I am only one vote in the IOS consortium. Let your voice be heard now if you support this idea.
I think that most everyone that participates here is a PDGA member so the votes will probably be slanted a bit. I like the current setup that you guys have that after a rating update you calculate the non members as well to make sure that they are also moving up as necessary so as to create a better set of competitions inside the groupings. Maybe someone doesn't know about the PDGA before they play their first tournament and it would be unfair to apply that idea to these types of players before they know their options.
It may be that for first time players in a PDGA tournament, telling them to play trophy only might be a good thing for them if they don't know what to expect. I was better than my friends, but still finished last in my first tournament. If they have a calculated rating (and we could use unofficials if they have no officially rated rounds), would they then be allowed to play full fee?
I like it in concept, but the tournament flier is starting to resemble those flow charts my Jr High computer teachers were fond of:
If you are PDGA member, MPO, MA2, MA4 plays on Sunday, all other members play on Saturday. If you are not a member you can play trophy only in the bottom divisions or full fee in the top divisions unless you've played in a PDGA tournament in Illinois in the last two years in which case see the list for your appropriate division.
The basic tenets we do need to follow are:
PDGA members with ratings must follow the ratings marks for the AM divisions.
PDGA members w/o ratings can play in any division where they are of proper gender and age.
It needs to be simple.
Now, the question is how do you make it fair to those that are not members with regards to those that are,
while at the same time making it easier for players to get started playing tournaments. The calculated ratings are good for those that have played PDGA tournaments in the past, but what do you do with first timers? If the division split is MPO/MA2/MA4, pushing players into the higher of the AM divisions puts them in either Expert(935+) or Advanced(900-935). I don't think many at their first tournament belong there. I will try to look at my stats tomorrow to see where first time non-rated players fell ratings wise.
If we said that all non-PDGA members were trophy only (except for Open), then it keeps the registration table simple.
One thing to further complicate matters: If the non-member fee goes up from $5, does that change anything? It will SEEM like a racket if a PDGA member plunks down $30 and can win merch and a non-member plunks down $30 for Trophy only.
Quote from: krupicka on September 25, 2007, 07:30:32 PM
The calculated ratings are good for those that have played PDGA tournaments in the past, but what do you do with first timers?
Just let them play wherever they think the should play. Ask them a few questions about their game, give them a suggestion and let the discs fall there they may. Some will overestimate their ability and play a divsion too high. Others will be sandbaggers. It really doesn't matter. I like they way the IOS tournaments have estimated a rating for players that reappear. There is less bagging thatn in the outside world. Let the first timers play and see how good, or bad, they are. .
Quote from: Jon Brakel on September 25, 2007, 02:33:25 PM
Quote from: Mukey on September 25, 2007, 02:28:38 PM
Quote from: stpitner on September 25, 2007, 01:35:16 PM
Unfortunately, I don't think you could ever completely avoid bagging because even if you restrict a division to PDGA-members only, you'll still get someone that just joined that is unrated and won't be positioned properly until after they get some sanctioned rounds in.
Don't know if it's still that way, but when Mid-Nationals was at Highbridge as an X-Tier you had to have a certain amount of rated rounds in order to participate. not saying to run the IOS that way, just an idea.
Quote from: Jon Brakel on September 25, 2007, 02:14:47 PM
Yes, but what Pitner is saying is that since it is no longer a shadow division it is also no longer protected from unrated/non-member players. I would be in favor of protecting the lower divisions by making non-pdga members play trophy only but I am only one vote in the IOS consortium. Let your voice be heard now if you support this idea.
I'd support non-PDGA members being restriced to Trophy Only
Mid-Nationals is unique as it is the only Major that has ratings protected divisions so they kind of had to decide on some standards.
Mid Nationals is not unique in that way, actually. But what Chuck has done with Mid-Nationals is far to be preferred to what the PDGA has done with Women's Nationals. I cannot remember when, if ever, the Intermediate Women's division was won by a woman with an intermediate rating.
Quote from: Top Banana on September 26, 2007, 07:13:35 AM
Quote from: Jon Brakel on September 25, 2007, 02:33:25 PM
Quote from: Mukey on September 25, 2007, 02:28:38 PM
Quote from: stpitner on September 25, 2007, 01:35:16 PM
Unfortunately, I don't think you could ever completely avoid bagging because even if you restrict a division to PDGA-members only, you'll still get someone that just joined that is unrated and won't be positioned properly until after they get some sanctioned rounds in.
Don't know if it's still that way, but when Mid-Nationals was at Highbridge as an X-Tier you had to have a certain amount of rated rounds in order to participate. not saying to run the IOS that way, just an idea.
Quote from: Jon Brakel on September 25, 2007, 02:14:47 PM
Yes, but what Pitner is saying is that since it is no longer a shadow division it is also no longer protected from unrated/non-member players. I would be in favor of protecting the lower divisions by making non-pdga members play trophy only but I am only one vote in the IOS consortium. Let your voice be heard now if you support this idea.
I'd support non-PDGA members being restriced to Trophy Only
Mid-Nationals is unique as it is the only Major that has ratings protected divisions so they kind of had to decide on some standards.
Mid Nationals is not unique in that way, actually. But what Chuck has done with Mid-Nationals is far to be preferred to what the PDGA has done with Women's Nationals. I cannot remember when, if ever, the Intermediate Women's division was won by a woman with an intermediate rating.
Exactly. I stand by my original statement.
I took the first two rounds chronologically for each unrated player (makes a bad assumption that it was their first tourney) for the past two years at IOS tournaments. This includes juniors and women which skews it down. I could not correlate what division they actually played in.
2008 Division - Number of rounds played at this level:
MA4 - 205
MA3 - 123
MA2 - 72
MA1 - 33
Did you get laid off, or what?
It took like 5 minutes while I was waiting for a build.
I don't think the non-member fee will go up for 2008. I have not seen or heard anything about that other than Peter Shive spouting off on his Ask Peter Shive thread.
Economically, it would not make any sense to do what Peter is suggesting. The $5 fee is $5 of profit to the PDGA. For that $5 they give the non-member absolutely nothing. If they were to jack that up to $10, a lot of non-members would join or not play. The PDGA would gain members and lose revenue.
I'm not sure the PDGA could ram that down the throats of their TDs, especially this year while they are trying to ram a new amateur divisional structure down the throats of their TDs.