too lazy to look up and not enough coffee yet
a couple of situations yesterday
1. disc lands in big patch of nasty thorn bushes on RED C (new temp hole) and they were nasty
unplayable lie ? relief ? penalty ? suck it up and throw ?
discer sucked it up and threw but incurred some damage to skin
2. Red 7 disc is right behind little tree in middle of fairway
if you throw from right behind mini full speed you will smash hand on tree
do you get 6 inches from behind mini
3. Cry-@$$ syndrome
at IN state in the second round i played with someone who made everyone in the group miserable
threw chair, kicked bag, extra drive ( i think ) on Blue 6 the long one but after every every every throw
no matter where it went , the kid whined, bi*(&ched , moaned
im sure if the kid hit an ace he would moan that someone else had one earlier and that he would have to split the money
again remember we are playing INT and its the second round - the last cards or close to last card
so the question is - yesterday if i was on his card for the second round can i call a courtesy violation on him before the round starts in front of the TD or do i have to wait for the first whine
the reason i ask is that the guys who i played with in the first round who were +7 and pretty cool got stuck with the kid in the second round and i was in the group behind them and kinda knew he was going to whine,bO&ch , and complain
i asked the guy from K-zoo and he said the kid's whining affected his and the other guys game
so back to the question - can u warn him based on prior experience or do you wait til the first whine
again we're playing INT - we know we're not good - and again im not like trying to get in his head to screw with him
im just to old to babysit especially on the course
plus he is not a current pdga member
1- If you land in thorn bush, you may opt to declare an unplayable lie, move back up to 5 meters( or go to the previous lie) with a +1 penalty. Otherwise you play it there.
2- You get 30cm behind your mini. Of course if you just use your previously thrown disc (rather than marking it) you end up with essentially an additional 21cm. Even better is learn to throw alternate types of shots (e.g. sidearm, throwing from your knee, or backhand backwards) and not worry about hitting the tree.
3- You can't call a courtesy warning on someone until they do something that warrants it. If you were aware going into the round, the best thing would be to talk to the TD and see if either he or an official can take some preemptive measures.
I have a question that is a little hard to describe. The disc lies partly underneath a sort of "shelf" created by a tree root. The shelf is about 6 inches above where the disc lies. The player could mark his disc and get a stance behind that mark. However the player wanted to throw from on top of this shelf. So I guess the question is; Does your lie extend infinitely vertical? Or do you have to throw from the same surface that the disc is on as long as its playable (obvioulsy you don't play from up in a tree)?
You need to play from the same playing surface as long as it is playable.
suck it up and throw because if you were in that bad of thorns, you shanked it badly
The rules are ambiguous by virtue of their failure to address layered playing surfaces. The rule writers assume throughout the rules that the course is flat. The Board wanted this addressed in the major rules rewrite when I was on the Board, but the rules committee was too focussed on playing other games.
I think an argument can be made from the stance rule that you can take the vertical relief when there are two playing surfaces. The stance rule only says that you have to be on the line of play. The line of play is not defined as an imaginary straight line, but more like a line that follows the contours of the playing surface. It is "on the playing surface."
The Rules Committee essay on bridges suggests that the rules committee thinks that you must play from the surface you landed on when there are overlapping surfaces:
"Conclusion: You play a disc on a bridge as you would play it anywhere else on the course. Assuming the bridge is not OB, you mark your lie on the bridge and proceed with the hole. If your disc lands under the bridge, you play it from under the bridge, taking any OB into consideration as you normally would. Of course, the TD or course designer is free to make any or all of the bridge OB, in addition to the creek below."
The Rules Committee essay on cracks in the ground is noncommittal. It says to ask the TD how to play it.
The way to play that, or any other scenario where you are not certain which is the proper way to play it is to play it both ways, record both scores and ask the TD. I have been in the situation where we just went with the group decision and got burned for that when some weasel in the group later brought it up with the TD. I have been in the situation where we went with the group decision and some interloper on another card made an issue of it.
Play it both ways. record both scores. Ask the TD.
ok
got a couple from sunday
player goes into muck on 12 to get his disc also gets another's discs
tosses other players disc 20 ft back to him (not toward the hole)
stroke or no stroke ?
also hole 12
what is the score
my drive goes into muck OB
i throw from drop zone
i throw up shot to base of pole
tap in putt
circle 5 or circle 6
i think i gave myself one to many strokes (circle 6) and then pondered on this for several holes afterward
- this was a major brain cramp as it did affect thru the woods
i have no idea why i didnt ask the group (another brain cramp)
Quote from: airspuds on October 24, 2007, 05:53:50 AM
player goes into muck on 12 to get his disc also gets another's discs
tosses other players disc 20 ft back to him (not toward the hole)
stroke or no stroke ?
Depends on who you're playing with. ;)
I might point out that you're not 'supposed' to do that and treat it as a warning, but technically it's a stroke; also might depend on who you are.... 8)
Quote from: airspuds on October 24, 2007, 05:53:50 AM
my drive goes into muck OB
i throw from drop zone
i throw up shot to base of pole
tap in putt
circle 5 or circle 6
5. four shots, one penalty shot.
dang - i knew i messed up that score but 1 stroke isnt going kill me but thinking about it for 6 holes did
dang dang dang
on the other issue - he was willing to take a stroke and the comment was made
consider it a warning and if it was a different group and what card you were on
that he would get stroked
just confirming what i knew '
thx
There is no warning for practice throws. But they have to be observed by 2 players or an official.
As an official I have witnessed two "practice" throws during play and just warned the player. They were not trying to take advantage or being disruptive. They just didn't know.
Somebody flipped a disc out of the swamp back to me on Saturday on hole 10. I didn't warn him or stroke him. The act of returning a lost disc to the lost and found pile negates any stroke for the casual swamp flick. ;D
I lost a disc on 18 before play that was found and returned during play. The person who found it recognized me on another fairway. We both walked to each other to exchange the disc instead of throwing it, fearing the practice throw penalty.
Quote from: can't putt on October 24, 2007, 12:13:54 PM
I lost a disc on 18 before play that was found and returned during play. The person who found it recognized me on another fairway. We both walked to each other to exchange the disc instead of throwing it, fearing the practice throw penalty.
Yeah, in Bloomington I wandered across the bridge to the other side of the creek on 10a to retreive my disc and the disc of another guy in my group. He called for his disc from across the bank. I showed it to him and told him I would bring it to him-- same fear. We know better and act accordingly. The kid who tosses his disc to his bag in his first tournament-- I am Sgt. Schultz. I didn't see anything. But I tell him that if I see it [again], I will have to call it. Its sort of like an unofficial warning since there is no actual warning on this rule.
maybe one of the dumber rules too, for a number of reasons.
There's a place for the rule and there's a way it should be enforced. I like Barrish's approach. Obviously we don't want players taking practice drives or practice putts before they throw the real one. By writing the rule overly broad, we get a clear, easy to apply rule. I don't have to know your intent. I don't have to speculate on whether you gained a competitive advantage from the flip back. And by enforcing the rule according to its purpose, we can all have a fun round, and the winner can be the player who played the best.
hole 19
what a clusterf(*)*ck
one guy went to the pond to ask the kid if he found his disc
one guy behind the big tree waiting for pedestrians to clear
one guy freaking cause greek guy picked up his disc and tossed it
another guy and me just watching everything happening but not closely
where do you mark the guys disc that was picked up and thrown by the greeks ?
no one saw the players drive and since it was 19 the player didnt know exactly where the
second shot landed as he was watching everything unfold aslo
so the question is ? should we have moved his disc to where he thought it was or let him play it where it lied ?
803.07.B If a disc at rest on the playing surface
or supported by the target is moved, the
disc shall be replaced as close as possible
to its original location, as determined by
a majority of the group or an official
Quote from: Silicon Avatar on October 24, 2007, 08:11:29 AM
As an official I have witnessed two "practice" throws during play and just warned the player. They were not trying to take advantage or being disruptive. They just didn't know.
I'm pretty sure I was one of those players at Stream-hood a few years ago. Usually people don't know and once they do, they don't throw discs back to people anymore
Spuds, buddy, put a rulebook in your bag >:D
It's amazing at the different attitude towards rule violations. Sunday on hole 11, one player misses his mark by a good foot to the beneficial side along the fence. I called it. He argued it up and down a couple of different ways that he didn't. There was no second (the player standing next to me I don't think wanted to get involved), so no penalty. He was still grumbling about it at the next tee. Meanwhile, I turn to the other players in the group watching another player try to knock a disc out of a tree with a disc. I tell him he can't do that. At the next tee when collecting scores he reports his score, but adds he didn't know what to do about the practice throw. I let it slide (probably because I was tired and he was humble).
I agree that rules violations and their enforcement vary greatly between players. I usually tell people about big rules and leave out smaller violations. There was a guy in my 1st round group who loved to look at people's footing. He said something to one guy on his drive, me on a jump putt/approach where the disc was clearly out of my hand before I landed, and another when I was in the middle of the fairway on 11 throwing my 2nd shot. Not sure how far away I was, but I was no where near a tree, fence, or other object. I felt like throwing the guy in the pond. Gotta make sure to get enough volunteer points to get into a good group, or at least with someone I know 1st round at Crystal lake.
Quote from: krupicka on June 03, 2008, 08:12:10 AM
It's amazing at the different attitude towards rule violations. Sunday on hole 11, one player misses his mark by a good foot to the beneficial side along the fence. I called it. He argued it up and down a couple of different ways that he didn't. There was no second (the player standing next to me I don't think wanted to get involved), so no penalty. He was still grumbling about it at the next tee. Meanwhile, I turn to the other players in the group watching another player try to knock a disc out of a tree with a disc. I tell him he can't do that. At the next tee when collecting scores he reports his score, but adds he didn't know what to do about the practice throw. I let it slide (probably because I was tired and he was humble).
No need to use a disc. I cannot recall who it was but somebody I played with threw a disc in a tree. A couple tosses of a water bottle eventually dislodged the disc. Also, haven't we all, during a casual round, seen somebody throw a disc at the first disc and now there are two discs stuck in the tree! :o
Quote from: Silicon Avatar on October 24, 2007, 08:11:29 AM
Spuds, buddy, put a rulebook in your bag >:D
It was my disc that was picked up and thrown by the old Greek guy. And I think that we all knew what the rule was.
The question is; that I, the person who's disc was picked up and thrown, was the only one that saw where it landed because one person was looking for his disc in the pond and the others were hanging back waiting for another person to throw. So if I, the player, was the only one who saw where it landed, then how can the group make a decision on where the original location was? Since I was the only one do I say where the original location was or do I play it from where it was thrown to?
Talk to the group on the way up. As long as they trust you, you can replace the disc as best as you can. If they think you are pulling a fast one, they'll tell you play it where it lies. One thing that might make it the appear better is to stand closer to where you were throwing from and direct another player drop it where you think it was. That way there's no complaints about intentionally dropping it with a clearer shot around the trees.
I guess easier said than done. The majority of the group just said whatever. So I played it from where it was, about 40 feet farther away from the basket from where I originally throw it. Either way got a four and moved on.
Quote from: DiscCrazy on June 03, 2008, 08:45:35 AM
Quote from: Mukey
Spuds, buddy, put a rulebook in your bag >:D
It was my disc that was picked up and thrown by the old Greek guy. And I think that we all knew what the rule was.
The question is; that I, the person who's disc was picked up and thrown, was the only one that saw where it landed because one person was looking for his disc in the pond and the others were hanging back waiting for another person to throw. So if I, the player, was the only one who saw where it landed, then how can the group make a decision on where the original location was? Since I was the only one do I say where the original location was or do I play it from where it was thrown to?
Hopefully your group saw the guy throw the disc so they wouldn't think you were trying to cheat by moving the disc back to it's original location. Also, hopefully your group hung back when you threw and saw where your throw went, but you state that only you saw where the original throw landed. I think it's weird that no one in your group saw where your shot landed, bad form on their part. I personally watch everyone's shots, both to gauge wind & prevent scoring mixups.
I say play the original spot
Oh yeah, you coulda always played a provisional and asked the TD when you turned the card in, almost forgot about that
Courtesy warning for all the folk not paying attention. >:D j/k
As for getting discs down out of trees, nothing beats a FatMax tape measure. Though I did encounter a time where a player stated that carrying the tape measure was illegal. I had to pull out the rule book and show him where it is explicitly allowed to have one.
It's part of the rules that you have to enforce the rules against other people. So, if they weren't watching your shot, they weren't playing by the rules (you have to watch the shots to call the infractions). If it were brought to my attention then I'd tell the guy whose shot it was to throw from where he thinks it is closest to where the original shot landed since only he was paying attention. The others in the group lose their right to have an opinion once they stopped paying attention.
Quote from: Mukey on June 03, 2008, 08:39:00 AM
I agree that rules violations and their enforcement vary greatly between players. I usually tell people about big rules and leave out smaller violations. There was a guy in my 1st round group who loved to look at people's footing. He said something to one guy on his drive, me on a jump putt/approach where the disc was clearly out of my hand before I landed...Gotta make sure to get enough volunteer points to get into a good group, or at least with someone I know 1st round at Crystal lake.
Hmmmm...I might have to play a round with you at Crystal Lake...I love calling foot faults on the jump putts/approaches/throws! You have to have a point of contact with the ground directly behind your mini (or disc) at the moment of release. It's a foot fault if you jump, are in the air, release the disc, and then land...whether you land before, after or at your mark.
Quote from: Mukey on June 03, 2008, 08:58:41 AM
Hopefully your group saw the guy throw the disc so they wouldn't think you were trying to cheat by moving the disc back to it's original location.
What if the group at the next tee saw where it was? One of them clearly saw the guy pick up my disc and throw it towards them. Can you ask them if they saw the original location?
Quote from: DiscCrazy on June 03, 2008, 10:03:31 AM
Quote from: Mukey on June 03, 2008, 08:58:41 AM
Hopefully your group saw the guy throw the disc so they wouldn't think you were trying to cheat by moving the disc back to it's original location.
What if the group at the next tee saw where it was? One of them clearly saw the guy pick up my disc and throw it towards them. Can you ask them if they saw the original location?
There's nothing in the rules that allows a person in another group to make calls like this, however, a person could certainly use people in another group to help gain consensus for their group. For example you might say "Bob from the group on hole 15 saw what happened because he tried and eventually did stop the guy from running off with my disc." So, your group asks Bob where the original spot of the disc was and he says "Right over there by that flowering clover patch." If you don't disagree then the rest of your group probably says "OK, play it from there."
When we were teeing off for 20, a guy on my card noticed a disc for the next group tossed back. He fetched it to put it back where it had originally landed. IMO He should have asked permission from that player first.
In hindsight we should have put a spotter on hole 19 by the basket if there was one available second round.
Quote from: Silicon Avatar on June 03, 2008, 09:19:12 AM
Quote from: Mukey on June 03, 2008, 08:39:00 AM
I agree that rules violations and their enforcement vary greatly between players. I usually tell people about big rules and leave out smaller violations. There was a guy in my 1st round group who loved to look at people's footing. He said something to one guy on his drive, me on a jump putt/approach where the disc was clearly out of my hand before I landed...Gotta make sure to get enough volunteer points to get into a good group, or at least with someone I know 1st round at Crystal lake.
Hmmmm...I might have to play a round with you at Crystal Lake...I love calling foot faults on the jump putts/approaches/throws! You have to have a point of contact with the ground directly behind your mini (or disc) at the moment of release. It's a foot fault if you jump, are in the air, release the disc, and then land...whether you land before, after or at your mark.
That's cool, I'd appreciate the look from someone I trust. I'm 90% sure I wasn't in the air at release, more of I released before I came down on the other side of my mini.
Quote from: Mukey on June 03, 2008, 11:05:22 AM
Quote from: Silicon Avatar on June 03, 2008, 09:19:12 AM
Quote from: Mukey on June 03, 2008, 08:39:00 AM
I agree that rules violations and their enforcement vary greatly between players. I usually tell people about big rules and leave out smaller violations. There was a guy in my 1st round group who loved to look at people's footing. He said something to one guy on his drive, me on a jump putt/approach where the disc was clearly out of my hand before I landed...Gotta make sure to get enough volunteer points to get into a good group, or at least with someone I know 1st round at Crystal lake.
Hmmmm...I might have to play a round with you at Crystal Lake...I love calling foot faults on the jump putts/approaches/throws! You have to have a point of contact with the ground directly behind your mini (or disc) at the moment of release. It's a foot fault if you jump, are in the air, release the disc, and then land...whether you land before, after or at your mark.
That's cool, I'd appreciate the look from someone I trust. I'm 90% sure I wasn't in the air at release, more of I released before I came down on the other side of my mini.
What kind of throw are you talking about? You say you weren't in the air but you released before you "came down on the other side of my mini".
Are you just talking about follow through of the non-plant foot? Your plant foot is behind your mini and you throw your upshot (outside of the putting circle) and your plant foot pivots after you release and your non-plant foot comes off the ground and then you step down in front of your mini?
What I just described is a legal shot outside the circle.
Quote from: Silicon Avatar on June 03, 2008, 11:25:40 AM
Quote from: Mukey on June 03, 2008, 11:05:22 AM
Quote from: Silicon Avatar on June 03, 2008, 09:19:12 AM
Quote from: Mukey on June 03, 2008, 08:39:00 AM
I agree that rules violations and their enforcement vary greatly between players. I usually tell people about big rules and leave out smaller violations. There was a guy in my 1st round group who loved to look at people's footing. He said something to one guy on his drive, me on a jump putt/approach where the disc was clearly out of my hand before I landed...Gotta make sure to get enough volunteer points to get into a good group, or at least with someone I know 1st round at Crystal lake.
Hmmmm...I might have to play a round with you at Crystal Lake...I love calling foot faults on the jump putts/approaches/throws! You have to have a point of contact with the ground directly behind your mini (or disc) at the moment of release. It's a foot fault if you jump, are in the air, release the disc, and then land...whether you land before, after or at your mark.
That's cool, I'd appreciate the look from someone I trust. I'm 90% sure I wasn't in the air at release, more of I released before I came down on the other side of my mini.
What kind of throw are you talking about? You say you weren't in the air but you released before you "came down on the other side of my mini".
Are you just talking about follow through of the non-plant foot? Your plant foot is behind your mini and you throw your upshot (outside of the putting circle) and your plant foot pivots after you release and your non-plant foot comes off the ground and then you step down in front of your mini?
What I just described is a legal shot outside the circle.
It's more of a step or two towards my mini then a jumping motion to give the disc more momentum. Not like a basketball jump shot where the actual shot is at the top of the jump, more like my release is right before the "jump"
Quote from: Mukey on June 03, 2008, 11:52:06 AM
Quote from: Silicon Avatar on June 03, 2008, 11:25:40 AM
Quote from: Mukey on June 03, 2008, 11:05:22 AM
Quote from: Silicon Avatar on June 03, 2008, 09:19:12 AM
Quote from: Mukey on June 03, 2008, 08:39:00 AM
I agree that rules violations and their enforcement vary greatly between players. I usually tell people about big rules and leave out smaller violations. There was a guy in my 1st round group who loved to look at people's footing. He said something to one guy on his drive, me on a jump putt/approach where the disc was clearly out of my hand before I landed...Gotta make sure to get enough volunteer points to get into a good group, or at least with someone I know 1st round at Crystal lake.
Hmmmm...I might have to play a round with you at Crystal Lake...I love calling foot faults on the jump putts/approaches/throws! You have to have a point of contact with the ground directly behind your mini (or disc) at the moment of release. It's a foot fault if you jump, are in the air, release the disc, and then land...whether you land before, after or at your mark.
That's cool, I'd appreciate the look from someone I trust. I'm 90% sure I wasn't in the air at release, more of I released before I came down on the other side of my mini.
What kind of throw are you talking about? You say you weren't in the air but you released before you "came down on the other side of my mini".
Are you just talking about follow through of the non-plant foot? Your plant foot is behind your mini and you throw your upshot (outside of the putting circle) and your plant foot pivots after you release and your non-plant foot comes off the ground and then you step down in front of your mini?
What I just described is a legal shot outside the circle.
It's more of a step or two towards my mini then a jumping motion to give the disc more momentum. Not like a basketball jump shot where the actual shot is at the top of the jump, more like my release is right before the "jump"
What you are describing there sounds legal. In the first post of yours that I quoted you said "disc was clearly out of my hand before I landed." The implication of "before I landed" is that you were in the air. However, if you meant before you jumped, then it is legal.
I'll demonstrate at Crystal lake to be sure, but you confirmed what I was thinking
^^^ this is why I don't jump putt - although it sounds more like putt jumping.
i do have a rule book in my bag
but i was wearing down fast in that second round ( both body and mind)
so my head definitely wasnt in the game
and my elbow was tingling, and the arm screaming after some drives
not an excuse but i have played only
2 rounds oly
3 rounds mokena
1 round long madison meadows lombard
1 practice putt session
before sunday
Quote from: stpitner on June 03, 2008, 02:07:53 PM
^^^ this is why I don't jump putt - although it sounds more like putt jumping.
When I first saw jump putting, sometime in the 90's, people take a few steps, jump about 3 feet in front of their mini, land directly behind their mini and throw just as they landed. If they were within the putting circle they would then demonstrate balance behind the mini. If they were outside the circle they would take another jump immediately after they released the disc. In that way they could take a bigger and faster jump. The second jump was just to keep from falling on their face.