DISContinuum DISCussion

The course I am talking about would be the best course this area has ever seen. It will be pay to play on private property.

It will be a professionally run course.

It will be disc golf only.

It will be  a unique design on very rare land in our area. Lots of elevation, open holes, wooded holes. Very challenging as well as beginner friendly.

Will have all amenties. Bathrooms, concessions(including beer), food. If business dictates a full service resturant.

A fully stocked pro shop for all of your disc golfing needs.

1 or 2 18+ hole course. There is the possibility of more than 1 course. I want at least 1 - 27 hole course and 1 - 18 hole course. Depends on intrest from players.

Would be located within 30mins of most of Lake County, IL.

What I have in mind will operate much like a traditional golf course just not at the high cost.

Please be honest. Do not just pick the lowest cost.

The land owners are in this to make money from the use of the property. So it is a simple as if they can make enough money to justify the effort it will more than likely happen.

Please post any questions or comments.

I picked the $5 round option, not because it's the lowest, but it's on the same $ level as playing Highbridge

With beer & food on the course I'd have no reason to leave, so they'd get my lunch $ also

Who do I need to send my resume to?

Quote from: Mukey on October 14, 2008, 12:26:28 PM
I picked the $5 round option, not because it's the lowest, but it's on the same $ level as playing Highbridge

With beer & food on the course I'd have no reason to leave, so they'd get my lunch $ also

I chose $10 per round to chase Mukey away because I don't want him puking on my tee.  >:D  ;D

I choose the $10 option because I feel the more money put into course fees the more money they will put back into course maintenance and improvements. At least that is what I am trying to sell them on. I am trying to make sure that they return some of the profits to the course and tournaments run there.

Quote from: Jon Brakel on October 14, 2008, 12:37:27 PM

Quote from: Mukey on October 14, 2008, 12:26:28 PM
I picked the $5 round option, not because it's the lowest, but it's on the same $ level as playing Highbridge

With beer & food on the course I'd have no reason to leave, so they'd get my lunch $ also

I chose $10 per round to chase Mukey away because I don't want him puking on my tee.  >:D  ;D

Jeez, a guy ralphs twice (heat exhaustion & bad Avanti's) in the stinky Peoria-area air 2 years ago and it still gets brought up   ::)

If it is a course consisting of true par 4s and par 5s, manicured and such, I would not have an issue with paying $10-$15. We are talking about a round that will take 2 1/2 to 3 hours to play.

I chose the 5 a round, due to the fact that I know myself and most of my friends like to disc golf as it is fairly inexpensive, and working and going to school is a bit difficult money wise.    I would definitely purchase the yearly pass however. 

Quote from: El Mexicano on October 14, 2008, 12:47:20 PM
If it is a course consisting of true par 4s and par 5s, manicured and such, I would not have an issue with paying $10-$15. We are talking about a round that will take 2 1/2 to 3 hours to play. How about a season pass for $50.

It will not be a deuce or die course. It will be more along the lines of what I see as the future of the sport. There will be plenty of true par 4s and par 5s. It will have easy tees for beginners but my plan is that it will be very challenging from the advanced tees. There will also be multiple baskets anchors. I am hoping for 3 or 4 anchors per hole to be able to move the baskets around.

For season passes I went with simple math. If you play 20 rounds you break even. I thought that was more than fair. That would be about 3 rounds/month for a 7 month season. The season pass would include course fees for leagues and tournaments. Until there is a 2nd course in the ground the season would probably only be open from Apr-Nov. That and tournament is the main reason I want 2 courses.

Edited cause I am a spaz and do pay attention to what I am writing most of the time.

5-8 bucks a day and maybe a weekend special

I voted for 10/20/200, but I think that $200 might be too high.  I'd say maybe more around $100-$150.  I'd also think that M-F rates should be maybe $7/15 and weekends 10/20.

One thing to also consider is that a place like Great America sells season passes for all of $70.  You go 3 times and you're paid off.  If you charge $200 not only do I have to go there and play 20 rounds to pay it off, I'd have to go even more than that to feel like I'm getting value out of that amount.  Otherwise I would have just paid the $10/round.  I'd think that if it's not super close to me that about 1-2 times a month would be on average, so about 10-12 trips over that same 7-month period.  That feels more realistic of a season pass.

And yeah, I'd sooo be jealous of this setup - the pro shop, pay to play, running tournaments there, everything.  Running it would be like a dream come true for me!

Quote from: stpitner on October 14, 2008, 01:35:24 PM
I voted for 10/20/200, but I think that $200 might be too high.  I'd say maybe more around $100-$150.  I'd also think that M-F rates should be maybe $7/15 and weekends 10/20.

One thing to also consider is that a place like Great America sells season passes for all of $70.  You go 3 times and you're paid off.  If you charge $200 not only do I have to go there and play 20 rounds to pay it off, I'd have to go even more than that to feel like I'm getting value out of that amount.  Otherwise I would have just paid the $10/round.  I'd think that if it's not super close to me that about 1-2 times a month would be on average, so about 10-12 trips over that same 7-month period.  That feels more realistic of a season pass.

And yeah, I'd sooo be jealous of this setup - the pro shop, pay to play, running tournaments there, everything.  Running it would be like a dream come true for me!

Great America charges the way they do because they are trying to get people into the park. Once they have people in the park they are counting on people to pay for the overpriced concessions and merchandise. I would rather have a balanced business model where both the course fee and concessions are fairly priced. I like the idea of different weekday/weekend course fees. I just did not want to create too many options for the poll.

I voted for the $10 per round/ $20 all day/ $200 per year option. I'd play the course once to check it out, and my future use would depend on my initial impressions. If I really liked it, I might play an average of once a month, but I'd consider buying a season pass. I'd be inclined to play more frequently if there were a weekly doubles, or preferably, singles league. I don't live in Lake County, so the time needed to travel there and back slightly influences my decision. Also, I'm single and have a full-time job so I don't have some of the financial restrictions that might keep families and students, two of your target demographics, from jumping on the pay-to-play idea. Good luck to you. It will be awesome if you can pull this off!

I voted zero.  In all honesty, I'd pay whatever fee was requested one time just to play the course.  I'd probably not go back except for special events / tourneys.  I am not in favor of fee based courses, and am skeptical as to their long term viability from a business perspective.

For me, I either play tourneys or casual rounds at dawn with my dog and kids.  I would much rather spend my support dollars encouraging and enhancing public parks.  From where I live (central Kane County) I would be far more likely to drive to Oswego and Joliet to play public courses than to Lake County or Wisconsin for pay-to-play.

That said, I have no problem paying the park fees at Lemon Lake or Token Creek.  Go figure ...

Quote from: jack on October 14, 2008, 01:42:36 PM
I voted for the $10 per round/ $20 all day/ $200 per year option. I'd play the course once to check it out, and my future use would depend on my initial impressions. If I really liked it, I might play an average of once a month, but I'd consider buying a season pass. I'd be inclined to play more frequently if there were a weekly doubles, or preferably, singles league. I don't live in Lake County, so the time needed to travel there and back slightly influences my decision. Also, I'm single and have a full-time job so I don't have some of the financial restrictions that might keep families and students, two of your target demographics, from jumping on the pay-to-play idea. Good luck to you. It will be awesome if you can pull this off!

If the course goes in the ground. I plan on running both a doubles league(upper/lower pools) and also a singles handicap league both with season ending payouts.

Quote from: can't putt on October 14, 2008, 01:43:10 PM
I voted zero.  In all honesty, I'd pay whatever fee was requested one time just to play the course.  I'd probably not go back except for special events / tourneys.  I am not in favor of fee based courses, and am skeptical as to their long term viability from a business perspective.

For me, I either play tourneys or casual rounds at dawn with my dog and kids.  I would much rather spend my support dollars encouraging and enhancing public parks.  From where I live (central Kane County) I would be far more likely to drive to Oswego and Joliet to play public courses than to Lake County or Wisconsin for pay-to-play.

That said, I have no problem paying the park fees at Lemon Lake or Token Creek.  Go figure ...

I totally agree about the use of public land and parks. Unfortunately in Lake County, IL we have been unable to find anyone willing to work with, who owns the required land, who is willing to install and maintain a true championship caliber course. We have a million 9 hole courses and 3 18 hole courses none of which are anything special. The latest attempts have been shot down because of the budget cuts that ILDNR have continue to deal with. I have waited until all public options in Lake County have been exhausted before I started to pursue pay to play on private property because it will cost more to support a course on private land than it would on public. I would like to keep the cost of playing disc golf to a minimum but I also want to play great course at home like I do when I travel.

Either private or public the future of disc golf at a championship level is pay to play. The people who play disc golf have to financially support the sport because we are the only people who care about the sport. Just my opinion.

Sounds secretive so far, but whereabouts is this elusive course to be installed?

Quote from: El Mexicano on October 14, 2008, 02:02:45 PM
Sounds secretive so far, but whereabouts is this elusive course to be installed?

The location would be at Wilmot Mountain, WI. Just over the IL border. If anyone would like send a simple email saying something to the effect of "If you build a disc golf course I will pay to play it." that might go a long way in convincing them it is something worth pursuing. Their email address is general@wilmotmountain.com.

Pitner is right, nobody is going to pay the 200 bucks if you can just pay 10 dollars per round.  I'm not going to gamble that I'll drive to Wisconsin for casual disc golf more than 20 times per year.  I don't even think I've played Fairfield 20 times this year.

Make it 10 bucks/round or 50 bucks/year.  If it was in Lake County and within 20 minutes of my house then I'd probably pay 200 bucks.

I would have to go with the $10/ round option as well. I live almost 2 hours from the WI border and do not see myself getting up that way enough to pay for the yearly fee, however, I have no problem $10 to even $15 a round at a pristine course.

if the course is worth it, i would pay ten to play.

In no way do I mean to criticize the efforts of various folks in Lake County.  I know an unbelievable amount of time and frustration has gone into attempts to build a great course on county land.  I will point out, however, that none of the seven 18 hole or greater courses within 25 miles of each other in six different communities around Joliet are on state or county land.

I disagree that the future of disc golf is pay to play.  The future of disc golf is grass roots community demand and support, such as exhibited by Fox Valley Metro and Oswego, although pay to play is a viable strategy to partially offset park district costs.  Does anyone know of any pay to play disc golf courses that are economically self supporting?  Any that actually turn a profit?  Based on local club memberships and tournament attendance there are probably 300 or so really avid disc golfers within an hour's drive of Wilmot.  If 2/3 of them buy a $200 season pass, that's only $40k in revenues.  Maybe another $40k in retail sales and vending.  Out of that comes wages, equipment, property taxes, maintenance, security ...
And of course the initial investment, not just in tee pads and baskets but in bathrooms, buildings, parking areas, benches, garbage cans.  What would you anticipate the 5 year RTI to be on a course good enough to attract $200 dollar season memberships?

I could see it working at Wilmot, however, as a summer supplement to their ski business.  The land and facilities are already in place.  This would be an 8 month course, then?

I voted zero. It opens up a door i wouldnt want to see anyone have to go through in the future. Making a great shot feels good to me no matter what course it is. I'll pay my tournament entry fee to play a nice course and move on. When you pay for places like Lemon Lake you are paying for other services in the Park also.

I voted for the "Other" option. Those price points seem fair, but I'm a pretty broke guy right now so the annual membership is a bit steep for me at $200/year, however I think $10/round and $20/day is still doable. My vote would be for the 10/20/100 split :)

edit - Just read some more of the thread and noticed that this may be located at Wilmot Mountain. At that price they better plant some trees up there! I hold a season pass there so I'm there several times a week all winter long anyway, and I can't see a great disc golf course being there with hardly any trees on the property. Any discounts for season pass holders?  :D

If Im paying $10 or $20 to play a disc course, there better be golf carts/segways or something to make it worth it.  The course could be across the street from my house & I wouldnt buy an annual pass w/o soem benefit aside from a very nice/different course.  $50 for an annual pass is about as high as I would go.  $5 a day if I have to walk it.

About half of the good courses in Michigan are nominal pay-to-play, but it is a park entrance fee.  Holly is $20 or $25 a year or about $4 a day.  The metroparks are similarly cheap but might get more expensive. 

I guess it all boils down to the fact that the true difference between disc golfers and ball golfers is that they love the sport enough to pay $50 to $250 per round and not bitch. This is why our sport will go nowhere.  Bunch of stingy folk.

Quote from: can't putt on October 14, 2008, 03:58:25 PM
In no way do I mean to criticize the efforts of various folks in Lake County.  I know an unbelievable amount of time and frustration has gone into attempts to build a great course on county land.  I will point out, however, that none of the seven 18 hole or greater courses within 25 miles of each other in six different communities around Joliet are on state or county land.

I disagree that the future of disc golf is pay to play.  The future of disc golf is grass roots community demand and support, such as exhibited by Fox Valley Metro and Oswego, although pay to play is a viable strategy to partially offset park district costs.  Does anyone know of any pay to play disc golf courses that are economically self supporting?  Any that actually turn a profit?  Based on local club memberships and tournament attendance there are probably 300 or so really avid disc golfers within an hour's drive of Wilmot.  If 2/3 of them buy a $200 season pass, that's only $40k in revenues.  Maybe another $40k in retail sales and vending.  Out of that comes wages, equipment, property taxes, maintenance, security ...
And of course the initial investment, not just in tee pads and baskets but in bathrooms, buildings, parking areas, benches, garbage cans.  What would you anticipate the 5 year RTI to be on a course good enough to attract $200 dollar season memberships?

I could see it working at Wilmot, however, as a summer supplement to their ski business.  The land and facilities are already in place.  This would be an 8 month course, then?

It is true that there are good courses in the area. But I am not trying to get a good course installed. I am trying to get 2 great courses installed. Courses on par with some of the best courses I have played have ever played before. I have played some amazing courses across the country. I want something like what I have heard Highbridge, WI is like. That is one course I really want to play. Heck I want courses better than anything I have ever played.

Yes there are sucessfull Pay2Play courses in other parts of the country. Minneapolis area is a good example. Morely Field in San Diego. Some parks around the country are starting to take fees on parking and an added fee for disc golf. The best example I can think of double fees is the metro parks around Detroit. Pay2Play is a new idea to this area for sure. But it can work it just needs player support.

My thought on the season would be Apr-Nov for any part of the course that included the mountain. I am shooting for 27 holes or 2-18 hole courses. I would think that any course that does not involve the mountains could be open in the winter.

Wilmot Mountain owns a lot more land than just the ski hills. I have played on mountain courses before. There is more to worry about when playing on a mountain than trees. Playing on a mountain is a whole new skill set with or without trees. Not to mention how often lift chairs, wires, and poles get in the way. There is a lot of wooded land surrounding the mountain that could be made available.

Just to make things clear. I am just in the process of convincing Wilmot Mountain that they should install a disc golf course or 2 on their property. Nothing I am writing is in anyway a promise or a guarantee of anything that will happen. These are all just ideas that I have thought of. These are all thoughts that have been discussed with a lot of people. I am just trying to get something done because I see a big bright future for this sport. And I am tired of playing great courses when I travel for work then come home to play our courses. The best courses here are just average compared to some of the courses I have played across the country.

Quote from: Mike Clark on October 14, 2008, 06:29:55 PMYes there are sucessfull Pay2Play courses in other parts of the country. Minneapolis area is a good example. Morely Field in San Diego. Some parks around the country are starting to take fees on parking and an added fee for disc golf. The best example I can think of double fees is the metro parks around Detroit. Pay2Play is a new idea to this area for sure. But it can work it just needs player support.

The question was "Does anyone know of any pay to play disc golf courses that are economically self supporting?  Any that actually turn a profit?"  Morely Field is a San Diego City Park.  Your other examples are community or regional parks.  Disc golfers aren't supporting these courses, the community is.  The fees assist, but do not support.

I voted for the $5 per round/ $10 all day/ $100 per year. I'd rather see the anual fee similar to Token Creek of $40 to $50 per year.

I think pay to play is the way to go. I have yet to play a pay to play park where there is garbage or vandalism. People playing there are making a choice to go play disc golf and seem to respect the game more.

If done properly this could become a destination facility which is located in an excellent location between Chicago and Milwaukee. It could immediately become one of the best facilities in IL. With a pro shop and concessions onsite I think they could make a profit.

Yes there are sucessfull Pay2Play courses in other parts of the country. Minneapolis area is a good example. Morely Field in San Diego. Some parks around the country are starting to take fees on parking and an added fee for disc golf. The best example I can think of double fees is the metro parks around Detroit. Pay2Play is a new idea to this area for sure. But it can work it just needs player support.

My thought on the season would be Apr-Nov for any part of the course that included the mountain. I am shooting for 27 holes or 2-18 hole courses. I would think that any course that does not involve the mountains could be open in the winter.


[/quote]

Blue Ribbon Pines is by far the most beautiful course I have ever played, Justin Trails big brother the most challenging, and Token Creek is my favorite. All of them are all 5 dollars for the day. All of these courses are worth (to me) 10 to play, but I think the reason they don't break that barrier is because they don't want to scare away the more casual players.

I would be sure to make a few visits, for sure, but if I'm going to drive that far, it's going to be hard for me not to make that turn west towards Token Creek.

i would play at least twice a month & buy a season pass @ $100.  although most do not play winter golf, i'm a fan of the snow!!  for a year round pass, i would pay $200, assuming there are 2 courses.

I would be sure to make a few visits, for sure, but if I'm going to drive that far, it's going to be hard for me not to make that turn west towards Token Creek.

[/quote]

If this happens and the course is designed properly it has the potential that you won't think twice about driving farther to play Token Creek.

Quote from: Dan Michler on October 14, 2008, 02:31:47 PM
Make it 10 bucks/round or 50 bucks/year.  If it was in Lake County and within 20 minutes of my house then I'd probably pay 200 bucks.

It's not in Lake County but it's 14 miles from your front door. The way you drive you should be able to get there in 20 minutes  ;).

The course in Minneapolis on the ski hill is not much fun IMO. I'll never play there again; too much up and down climbing with mediocre difficulty, but very nice to have hot food and cold brew at the clubhouse afterwards.  The straight downhill 750 ft shot is fun too !    I also played mountain courses in Missoula, Aspen, and Snowmass and none of them were very spectacular.    I have no problem with pay to play, as any small fee is negligable in comparison to green fees at a golf course, which are upwards min $ 75 - $100 for anything good in this region.  Pay for play also keeps the dirtbags who vandalize and trample small trees to improve their lie off the course.

Golf courses have carts. Until disc courses have carts, anything over $5 is too much in my opinion.  The availability of clean restrooms and hot food/drinks is nice though... that makes it worth $5 over $2-$3/day.  $10 if they turn on the ski lifts maybe.  That still will most likely leave you with a good amount of uphill hiking though.

Pay2Play does work if it supported by the players. My goal is to keep a affordable as possible. The people who own the land and provide the service have to decide what is best for them. I have seen it work in other places. I have crunched the numbers. It will work given the correct set of circumstances.

edit - I see this as our best chance to get championship caliber courses in the ground. If players in our area want to play great courses they will support it. If not then I am wrong about the future of disc golf. At least the future of disc golf in Lake County, IL.

Bottom line on course design is that is has to be easy enough for beginners and still challenging for advanced players. These are design concepts of any good golf course. Unless this is a well designed course that can appeal to every type of player it will not work. Wilmot Mountain owns over 300 acres there are almost unlimited possibilities for course designs.

As Brett said I intend it to be a "disc golf destination" not just a course. It is going to be something that people want to drive an hour to play.

Blue Ribbons is on private land.

Highbridge Hills is on private land. If these courses were close to us the dude would be rich by now. Wilmot Mountain could be this good.

Morley Field is on park property but not run by the park. I believe that the land is leased from the park. Not sure on the arrangement. I have never seen a busier disc golf course in my life. That place was packed the 3 days I was there.

Quote from: Mike Clark on October 15, 2008, 08:19:21 AM

Bottom line on course design is that is has to be easy enough for beginners and still challenging for advanced players. These are design concepts of any good golf course. Unless this is a well designed course that can appeal to every type of player it will not work. Wilmot Mountain owns over 300 acres there are almost unlimited possibilities for course designs.

As Brett said I intend it to be a "disc golf destination" not just a course. It is going to be something that people want to drive an hour to play.

separate tee pads for pro's/am's is the best way to accomplish this, not just alternate pin placements.  If you build a destination course people will make the drive to play it.  I for one will drive 6 hours for the innaugural tourney :)  sanctioned of course... with pre-reg.  And yes it will be in INT or above :)

Private courses are a different story. I would pay some money to play a private course that provides or a public one like Northwoods. Paying to play a public course would be like paying twice since the Park is already being funded by the taxpayer. It should provide something extra for the extra money their getting. Greed has a tendancy to set in if the public lets it. I have no problem paying $5 for all day like the Northwoods. You get brooms on every hole and a nice bench to sit on with awesome veiws of the woods. You get a pro shop with some of the nicest people you can ever meet. The worst thing that could happen to disc golf would be for greed to set in and everyone has to pay everywhere you go.

For the most part, I agree with Brett's posts.
Standing Rocks is now PTP. I believe it is $4/day or $25/year.
That is an acceptable (actually GREAT) rate for 27+ holes of extreme disc golf.
Plus, ALL money collected goes back into the course.
Not another nearby course, but THAT course.
I am all for it if that is the case.

If you want to know what works in privately owned pay to play,

It helps if it is the only course around.  It is hard for the private sector to compete with free courses.  If the disc golf course is the center attraction, that has been successful only in a handful of venues where your disc golfing options were very limited.  I think Dragan Field is privately owned.  Sandy Point is privately owned.

It works if disc golf is an adjunct to whatever else the facility has going on.  Boyne Mountain is booking conferences, seminars, retreats and such all summer long and the course is just another thing besides the tennis courts and golf course and other activities.  Sandy Point has people using the motel who are not there for the disc golf.  They don't have to pay a person to collect disc golf fees.  That person is already there doing other things at the front desk.

It works if it is supported with free labor from the disc golfers who are promoting the project.  Mason County Parks does not spend a dime on their two [three] courses.  The club up there bought the baskets and tees and cuts the grass.  The club collects the fees too.  The land there is owned by the electric company, so it is a public/private/club cooperative thing. 

I think given our current level of player participation, a dog patch golf/disc golf facility is more viable than a ski/disc golf facility.  If the ski resort has a year-round restaurant or bar, though, the ski thing could be viable.  The problem they'll have is the same problem Timber Ridge had.  Not enough players to support a person hanging out there collecting fees. 

We think our courses are crowded because they are crowded when we are there, but they are only crowded weekday evenings and weekend afternoons and evenings.  70 to 80 day light hours a week in the summer time they are almost deserted.  Even on weekends, from sunrise to noon there is not a lot going on at most courses.  When I'm at the the course on Friday before an IOS, our IOS courses are pretty empty until 5:00 or so. 

Quote from: Bruce Brakel on October 15, 2008, 01:18:00 PM
We think our courses are crowded because they are crowded when we are there, but they are only crowded weekday evenings and weekend afternoons and evenings.  70 to 80 day light hours a week in the summer time they are almost deserted.  Even on weekends, from sunrise to noon there is not a lot going on at most courses.  When I'm at the the course on Friday before an IOS, our IOS courses are pretty empty until 5:00 or so. 

I thought this as well.  However, I recently went to Fairfield in the middle of the day on a weekday. I was surprised at how many people were at the park.

Maybe I don't recognize the name of the courses - but has anyone mentioned Sandy Point?  How are they successful?  They offer you a place to stay as well as disc golf.  People don't have to go there just for disc golf, but a lot do because it's considered (to some) a destination spot.  If you make the course good enough and enable people to stay there, you're going to get more draw from a larger selection of disc golfers.  I also think that as long as we keep promoting the sport and drawing more people in to play we will be able to expand the base.

I'm ok with different tee pads, but don't make something that should be a "par 72" something that winds up just to be a par 54 because you want to be nice to the low-rated ones (eg. me).  There's a reason that ball golfers talk about their handicap and all that stuff - they can't card a 72 on a great course.  A low-level disc golfer shouldn't either from the pro tees.  That's a mentality that we're not used to in disc golf either I believe.

I think Sr. was referring to Sandy Point when he mentioned Northwoods.  His description fits, anyway.  Sandy Point is a fairly typical northern WI resort with a very nice disc golf course.  Very nice beach, fishing, boating, etc.  Lodging rates (in season) range from $95 to $350 / night depending on your cabin.  The resort keeps them in business.

I played Highbridge on a very nice August day.  My son and I were the only people there.  We dropped our fee in the jar in the pro shop and played all day without seeing another soul.  I doubt Highbridge takes in enough to pay their property taxes.  If Highbridge were local, I know they wouldn't take in enough to pay their property taxes.  Highbridge is a labor of love, not business.

Blue Ribbon Pines is owned by the Jordan family.  Their business is not disc golf, but is landscaping and sod farming.  The disc golf couse is an aside on land they already owned, it does not have to be self supportive, but is supplemental income to an existing concern.

Wilmot would be in the same boat as Blue Ribbon Pines.  As a supplement to an existing business it could be successful.  As Bruce points out, in Wilmot's case it will depend on if the income is enough to support the required staffing.  At minimum wage in Wisconsin plus employer taxes it cost $90 to staff one person for 12 hours, or $630 for a seven day week.  At $5.00 greens fees, that's 126 golfers per week.  $40,000 installation cost is the equivalent of 8000 additional green fees.  That's an additional 205 green fees / week for a one year pay back given a 9 month season.  Perhaps that one person could run the concession stand as well, but you still need someone to maintain the course and pick up trash.  Don't forget utilities such as electricity and water/sewer.  So yeah, at a place like Wilmot, maybe.  But the future of disc golf?  I just don't see it.  No way could a disc golf course as a self supporting business amortize the cost of property and facilities, cover property taxes and overhead, and still afford a living to the owner.

Quote from: can't putt on October 15, 2008, 04:09:15 PM


Blue Ribbon Pines is owned by the Jordan family.  Their business is not disc golf, but is landscaping and sod farming.  The disc golf couse is an aside on land they already owned, it does not have to be self supportive, but is supplemental income to an existing concern.

Wilmot would be in the same boat as Blue Ribbon Pines.  As a supplement to an existing business it could be successful.  As Bruce points out, in Wilmot's case it will depend on if the income is enough to support the required staffing.  At minimum wage in Wisconsin plus employer taxes it cost $90 to staff one person for 12 hours, or $630 for a seven day week.  At $5.00 greens fees, that's 126 golfers per week.  $40,000 installation cost is the equivalent of 8000 additional green fees.  That's an additional 205 green fees / week for a one year pay back given a 9 month season.  Perhaps that one person could run the concession stand as well, but you still need someone to maintain the course and pick up trash.  Don't forget utilities such as electricity and water/sewer.  So yeah, at a place like Wilmot, maybe.  But the future of disc golf?  I just don't see it.  No way could a disc golf course as a self supporting business amortize the cost of property and facilities, cover property taxes and overhead, and still afford a living to the owner.

Last time at the Pines, I noticed two locals upkeeping the baskets as they played a round. Perhaps the labor force is paid in free greens fees for the year?

After that, all you would need is someone running the pro shop.

I chose the five dollar option. 
I have recently returned from a extended stay in VA where most courses are on park property and have a nominal fee to play. Similar to what was posted earlier in this thread. New Quarters Park was my favorite to play. It had a nice pro shop and benches and trash cans at every hole.  They even offered bug spray free!!!  I  would pay to play if what was offered was worth it.  Even at 10 or more.  I think that is the bottom line. The land owners need to make sure if they move forward, they have to focus on how the course is laid out first.  Pay to play with golf carts could be the future of disc golf. It is up to the land owners to decide if it is worth the financial risk.

I remember when BMX Bike racing was being run at low cost by park districts and freestyling was a few kids in empty swimming pool or ONE quarterpipe. Now BMX racing is in the Olympics  and is there anyone that has not heard of the X-Games?

BRB

Pay for play isn't going to make the owner rich for sure; selling discs, concessions, beers, running tourney's etc. will make more $.      I always carry my clubs when I play golf and never choose a cart unless forced to.   I see no future for a pay for play disc course with carts; it is VERY costly to lay cart paths, lease and maintain carts, which is why they often charge $25/round or more to use one at golf courses.  (My grandather was the original EZ-GO dealer in the Chicago region.)  I honestly would  not have any interest in playing disc golf with a cart; plus the course would be boring since you can't go through any woods, up inclines, etc.... How lazy are people getting that they don't want to walk and carry a disc bag ?     Exercise is one of the best benefits of our sport.     

The golf cart was a joke, sorry you did not get it.

Deucemeister you have heard of X-games right?  I sure hope so, if not check it out online sometime.

BRB