DISContinuum DISCussion

For purposes of this poll, assume the amateur entry fee is $25 instead of $28, assume also that the payouts would be at least 50% bigger than what we were doing in 2008, and assume that trophy-only is now about $10.  You might as well assume it is good on t-shirts, birdie bags, and other non-disc merchandise.  Oh, assume also that the player pack is offered to pros and ams alike.  AND, assume you can change your vote if you voted before reading the assumptions!   ;D

I'll toss in my thoughts, arguments, etc., if discussion ensues.   :D

ios players packs are always good.
at the river cities rumble this year everyone got teeth whitener, a quad city reader newspaper, coupons for some taco place, and a tin thermos. i would much rather get a merch voucher or something, but i guess its the thought that counts.

Forget about the poll, I like all of the assumptions. Since I at times use my player pack for non-disc items, the coupon doesn't tickle my fancy as much.

Quote from: pickax on October 21, 2008, 07:09:27 AM
Forget about the poll, I like all of the assumptions. Since I at times use my player pack for non-disc items, the coupon doesn't tickle my fancy as much.

O.k., I've modified my poll and the assumptions.  Your vote can be changed if you want to change it. 

So long as it would be ok to use either Cash or Brass fo rthe other 50% I would be ok with it. I'm usually turned off by getting a coupon when I'm used to somehting for free but in this case that coupon could go much further...  I'm assuming there would be restrictions?   Assuming I got this coupon for 50% off two items at IOS #5 & assuming I could pay the other 50% with brass... I would have attempted to buy two Innova sports for 200 brass w/ the coupon.   To cover yourself, make sure to put a disclaimer w/ restrictions on the coupon :)

The illusion of "getting something for free" with the current deal would be the main obstacle.  You just paid $28 for your 15 Brass player pack.  What's free about that?   ::)  But a lot of players see it that way.  Most players don't see the player pack as an expense that drags down payouts. 

So long as everything is priced properly, Innova Skillshots and Sports would be available on this plan. 

And like all polls out here, this is not a vote.  It is an opportunity to discuss. 

what if you could use the coupon for say 15 merch bucks(discs) or a percentage off a higher priced item(basket, bag, sweater). with both options it should seem to please most people. you would be able to get a "free" disc or a % off something more pricey. just a thought

I voted mildly against. I think a lot of players like to simply come home with a disc for their player's pack.  The way I read the proposal the  player has to dig into their pocket and put out some more cash.  A lot of us also like to pool our chits, brass, whatever, and get something bigger such as a bag or basket.  The proposal would seem to work for such a desire. However, it still asks the playerr to pay some cash.  I think a lot of players would rather pay out whatever chits, brass whatever and buy whatever they can afford rather than add cash to get more stuff.

if the desire is to get more cash (as cash is worth more to the TD) paid I suggest that the chits, brass, whatever simply be priced as to its actual value. If 15 chi....er funny, is really only worth 10 lets call it 10. Fine by me.

If I have something that I really, really want I will pay cash.  If I am simply "cashing" out my funny to get something I prefer to stay within my means or pay a little cash to move up to something I want rather than have to get something priced 50% more.

I like the idea of trophy only. It would be interesting to have a TO tournament.  Low entry, no payout. If I lose my Valk in the pond I will come to the table and pay cold hard cash.

I call the first Chainstar!

If the idea is unpopular [lower entry fees, bigger payouts, more player pack options and pricing points] we just won't go with it.   :rolleyes:  

We're looking for ways to give the players more choice and the same value. Currently you pay $7.50 for your 15 Brass player pack, but you don't see it that way because it comes hidden in your $28 entry fee. Really, though, you have a $20.50 entry fee and a $7.50 player pack rolled into the same purchase. If we were to unpackage that deal, players who don't need more stuff could save a few bucks and players who do need more stuff could get some of it at wholesale prices, even slightly below wholesale on Discraft.  A player who just needs an 8 Brass Pro D putter could spend $4 for his player pack and a player who needs a 150 Brass Skillshot could spend $75 on his player pack.  

Having a two-purpose coupon would lead to accounting and record keeping difficulties.  A 50% off cash sales coupon is very easy to account for. We already have a good system for accounting for discounted cash sales.  

I voted that I would not like it at all for the reason that Mirth described.  I want to pay my entry fee and no more.  I do not want to buy a disc, so I would probably try to sell my coupons to somebody or end up giving them away.

I would rather there was no player pack or merch at all and we just played for small amounts of cash as Bruce previously suggested.  I'm just there to compete and the less money I put upfront, the happier I am.

I really like the way you have done your player's packs over the years. It gives me the feeling of getting something that I want for your money even if I did not cash in the tournament. If I didn't want anything that day I could save it for later. An IOS tournament was the first tournament I ever played in so I think I am spoiled. Every time I go to another tournament and the player's pack is not like an IOS I am disappointed. I do not want a bag of stuff I do not want. I do not want a stamped disc that I will never throw. I definitely do not want a coupon I more than likely will never use. The floor of my car is full of coupons I will never use.

I think IOS payouts are just fine. As an amateur player I care more about a good tournament then I do payouts.

I think the trophy only tournaments with a players pack would be cool.

If you want to raise more money for payouts raffle a chainstar, mach 3 , or even better a powder coated mach 5 at each tournament. I think you could raise some big money doing that.

Quote from: Dan Michler on October 21, 2008, 08:43:45 AM
I voted that I would not like it at all for the reason that Mirth described.  I want to pay my entry fee and no more.  I do not want to buy a disc, so I would probably try to sell my coupons to somebody or end up giving them away.

I would rather there was no player pack or merch at all and we just played for small amounts of cash as Bruce previously suggested.  I'm just there to compete and the less money I put upfront, the happier I am.

So are you saying you would not like it at all because you want to pay less money upfront and this gives you two options to pay less money upfront than what you pay currently?  Is this Dan's dry humor again or am I confused?  

Nonetheless, I'm fine if people don't like the idea.  I don't want to propose a wildly unpopular change.  I think over the years we have done a too-good job of training ams to think that forcing them to spend part of their entry fee on a player pack they may not want makes the tournament better.  

We can't raffle a basket at any of our tournaments because we lack the charitable credentials to do it legally. You can blame me for this one. I know that plenty of other tournaments hold raffles but I just like to keep everything legal. The chance of something bad happening because of running an illegal raffle is slim to none but slim is still out of my comfort range.

Quote from: Bruce Brakel on October 21, 2008, 08:51:27 AM

Quote from: Dan Michler on October 21, 2008, 08:43:45 AM
I voted that I would not like it at all for the reason that Mirth described.  I want to pay my entry fee and no more.  I do not want to buy a disc, so I would probably try to sell my coupons to somebody or end up giving them away.

I would rather there was no player pack or merch at all and we just played for small amounts of cash as Bruce previously suggested.  I'm just there to compete and the less money I put upfront, the happier I am.

So are you saying you would not like it at all because you want to pay less money upfront and this gives you two options to pay less money upfront than what you pay currently?  Is this Dan's dry humor again or am I confused?  

Nonetheless, I'm fine if people don't like the idea.  I don't want to propose a wildly unpopular change.  I think over the years we have done a too-good job of training ams to think that forcing them to spend part of their entry fee on a player pack they may not want makes the tournament better.  

From what I understood, we are getting 50% off coupons in lieu of funny money.  To use the 50% off coupons I assume you have to cover the other 50%.  I don't want to pay the other 50%.

Quote from: Dan Michler on October 21, 2008, 10:15:03 AM
From what I understood, we are getting 50% off coupons in lieu of funny money.  To use the 50% off coupons I assume you have to cover the other 50%.  I don't want to pay the other 50%.

Bruce didn't present this very clearly...at least to my pea brain. Bottom line is you would be getting the option of 50% off of merch, pay less in entry fees AND have the same or better payout. What Bruce fails to realize is that "most" of the people at any one tournament don't care about payout because they didn't get any. However, EVERY amateur cares about the player pack because they ALL get the player pack.

Scenario 1:
$30 entry fee + 15 funny money player pack = $22.50 per player in payout

$25 entry fee + 50% off coupon player pack = $25 per player in payout

In 2003 when we started the IOS, the PDGA did not require player packs and we did not offer them. When the PDGA started requiring a certain value in a player pack we started doing the choose your own player pack. We tried a few ways to try to offer a way for players to not get player packs and keep the entry fees lower, but in the end the PDGA was triumphant and now everyone just expects player packs. Most players don't do the math though and don't realize how much the payout is reduced by having a player pack.

How do you get that out of reading the poll question?

At any rate, if Jon's post represents Bruce's true intention with this poll question then it would make a difference in my response.

What we are saying is I'm getting $5 off my entry plus the 50% off coupon instead of the 15 funny money?  Can I use the 50% off coupon in combination with funny money won during the event?  Say the disc is 18 funny money, is it also 9 funny money plus the coupon?  I would choose this option over the standard 15 funny money player pack if I'm now understanding it correctly.

Be careful to make this system simple and crystal clear or else you'll have alot of unhappy players complaining because they will misinterpret the new system to be something thats ripping them off when in reality it might not be.  I know this is a problem Bruce is susceptible to.   :o

Quote from: Dan Michler on October 21, 2008, 12:20:19 PM
How do you get that out of reading the poll question?

You have to read the poll question, Bruce's assumptions and then understand the calculations being made for our current payout. That's why after reading all of this I thought I'd actually post something that people might understand.

I thought that the coupon would only be good for a cash purchase and would only be good before the tournament starts but Bruce will have to fill us in on that.

Why change the current system again? It is not like the entry fees were astronomical (Greens Fees to Pebble Beach) anyway. Replace the Brass with paper money. I can see how extending this to the PROs as well would be good. Pros can buy a disc they need at half price.

We're always looking at finding ways that we can change things that work for everyone. If the coupon idea does not appeal to people then we won't change it. Remember that the pick your own player pack and trophy only were radical ideas when we started them. For that matter MA4/Novice was a radical idea when we started offering it. Now it is a regular PDGA division.

What Mr. Barish said.

In answer to the question, "why change it," after several years of running funny money tournaments we've learned that there are hidden risks for the tournament operators in this format, and good reasons why a lot of TDs run voucher systems where the voucher is good today only.  In order to run a funny money system properly, there needs to be a lot more accounting going on than we have been doing.  

A 50% off coupon is something that does not require any additional accounting.  We already have a system for recording discounted cash sales.  And it would give real value to the player who actually wants stuff when he signs up.  

We might do a voucher system where the voucher can be validated and saved for a future tournament, but with our system that is going to require both a player pack voucher and a payout voucher and a lot of extra paper work.  Basically, we need to account for the outstanding player packs and payout vouchers, and maintain a reserve in a separate account to pay for those when they come home at the end of the year.  

Basically all I'm proposing is selling you the items in the Happy Meal separately, so that if you don't want fries, or if you'd rather have chicken nuggets, that option is there.  Under the old system it is like Steak and Shake where you get one side with the meal.  Under this system the meal costs less and you can get the sides for half price when you buy the meal.  

Interesting concept.
I thinnk those that want to not spend cash if they don't cash may end not liking it very much and you may lose some newer tournament players after they find out that they are going to have to shell out cash if they want a disc a their first tournament.

I wonder from a Merch guy perspective if you won't have more variability in the amount of merch moved if you use a coupon for a player pack.