It seems to me that Illinois tournaments have simply become one big league. In my opinion, tournaments should be EVENTS. Events that one puts on their calendar weeks in advance, looks forward to, and prepares for. Neighboring states put on events. Homie, Mad City Open, Northwoods Open all come to mind. What separates these tournaments from the run of the mill? What makes a good event? What things detract from an event? Should there be more distinction between tier classifications for Ams? In other words, should a B-tier offer more event-wise than a C-tier other than just a higher entry fee and bigger points multiplier? What are your thoughts?
Hype.
Hype makes a good tournament.
Last year the am player pack at least one of those tournaments sucked and the payouts were nothing special. The TD didn't know the rules and didn't know Novice is a different division from Recreational. But they have hype. So everyone goes and everyone says its a great tournament.
Quote from: can't putt on September 20, 2009, 08:49:00 AM
It seems to me that Illinois tournaments have simply become one big league. In my opinion, tournaments should be EVENTS. Events that one puts on their calendar weeks in advance, looks forward to, and prepares for. Neighboring states put on events. Homie, Mad City Open, Northwoods Open all come to mind. What separates these tournaments from the run of the mill? What makes a good event? What things detract from an event? Should there be more distinction between tier classifications for Ams? In other words, should a B-tier offer more event-wise than a C-tier other than just a higher entry fee and bigger points multiplier? What are your thoughts?
There are a couple of things that make a good event. Things that I like at an event:
1. A good course.
2. Lots of players.
3. Score cards or tees with the distance clearly marked.
4. Nice course routing.
5. A players pack with a choice.
6. A TD/TDs who know my name, or at least make an effort to address me directly.
7. A course that is closed to casual players.
8. Scores are posted with in a few days and turned into the pdga in a reasonable amount of time.
9. A tourney that starts on time, has an hour for lunch, and wraps up on time.
10. A TD who doesn't have a problem giving out prizes if an individual has to leave early.
11. Nice tropies, or at least an effort to have trophies.
12. Having food for sale at the event is nice. Having lunch/dinner is nice but not high on the list.
13. If the course is average, adding a couple of extra holes is a bonus.
Things I don't like at an event:
1. A crappy course.
2. Not having a players pack without annoucing there won't be a players pack.
3. Scorecards/tee signs without distances.
4. Not getting the scores reported.
5. Poor scheduling between events. (Two events running the same day.)
6. No trophies or crappy trophies.
7. An hour and a half between rounds when there are 20 players.
8. Not starting an event on time.
Things that are nice but not critical:
1. Food.
2. Custom stamped discs.
3. Lots of CTPs.
I think pointing out the Homie, Mad City Open, and the Northwoods Open is a little bit unfair. Northwoods and Mad City are long running events, each by the same TD. It is typically the only event that they run. Both of them have fine courses. Both of them have become well known because they are long running. The Homie is a special event thanks to Brian and the help of Matt's parents. Without the outside help the Homie wouldn't be what it is.
One event that wasn't mentioned that I think has become something special is the Capital City Challenge. Brad, Jim, and the rest of the Springfield Disc Golf Club have worked hard to make this a special event. I think that there is room in the schedule for "events" and for "tournaments". I don't know if it is possible for a TD to run more than one "event" a year. There are other "events" in Wisconsin and certainly some in Michigan. Events take time, there certainly is some word of mouth, good promotion, and a sense of history. Maybe even hype, if you run a great event,but don't promote it, people are not going to show up. It seems to me that the nature of disc golf there is a certain amount of turnover. If you don't put up flyers, if you don't "hype" your event, no matter how good it is, attendance will suffer.
Wisconsin is extremely lucky to have some dedicated TDs who spend a great deal of time on "their" event. There is a little bit of a competition going on up there.
I think part of it comes down to expectations, in my opinion "events" are a bonus, but should not be considered the norm. I am grateful to the TDs who chose to run events. I think there is a place for both "events" and tourneys, I stay away from the ones where I have been disapointed in the past.
I agree with Bruce that hype is important. A good way to create hype would be with heavy promotion through flyers, internet, pdga tour schedule, and word-of-mouth. Look at the IOS for example. 2 years ago all of the things I mentioned were happening in heavy doses and the tournaments were fantastic in my opinion. This year...flyers? pdga tour schedule?....I think we've seen the results of not hyping a tournament and perhaps not bringing quite the same energy level into the event as in the past. It clearly makes a difference.
I'm just a player though and I'll try to support as many Illinois events as I can whether they are 'hyped' or not. At the end of the day I just want to play and compete for as cheap as possible and be sent home on time. If there are a ton of players, food on site, and lots of prizes, thats all great too but not vital for me personally. Not much we can do about the courses. Clearly if we had a Lemon Lake facility things would be easier for our TD's.
The factors, in order, that I consider when deciding whether to attend:
#1 Distance from home
#2 Price to play
#3 What day is it on, I like Saturdays better than Sundays.
#4 Course
#5 How many people will be there
#6 The TD, do they have a good reputation for running smooth events and getting people in and out in a timely fashion? Do they get their results turned in on time?
NOTE: I don't think I've ever considered the potential amateur payout and decided NOT to go because of it. Its really far less important to me than having a cheap entry fee.
I agree with Kurt, the Homie is a fantastic tournament in my book because the courses are really fun and there is a ton of good competition at that event typically. Also, the entry fee is very reasonable, they give me free lunch and dinner, and if I cash I will get more than what I think I deserve. Sure, I wish they got me home quicker, but the goods outweigh the bads.
Excellent points, all!
Personally, I would give putting circles high importance for creating an event. Lunch is high on my list as well. Wind flags are a nice touch, but probably pretty low on the cost/benefit continuum.
How about additional games and contests after the final round? Are these appealing or annoying?
I agree that there is room for both more casual tournaments and events. I think the IOS Rockford A tier last year was an example of an event. As was the Fox Valley Metro tourney at Oswego earlier this year. But I also think that the local scene is becoming saturated with C-tier style events charging B-tier prices. Obviously, if the market supports this -- fine. It looks, however, that the market is a little soft as tournaments are not filling this year as they did last year and the year before.
The thing I see that all the "events" have in common is a group of dedicated individuals trying to put together a disc golf experience for the players. Many of the other Chicago area tourneys seem like nothing more than a business plan. Using that model, we as consumers can have an impact on the market. If we are being charged high tournament fees then lets expect high tournament quality in return.
Edit -- The Oswego tourney I am referring to was actually last year. The Veteran's Tourney.
What Chicago area tournaments charge high entry fees?
As a player & TD I respect anyone trying to run an event. Even the smallest events take a ton of work and financial committment. The more items you add (trophies, painted circles, etc..) the harder it is to meet the bottom line. The larger the event is, the more volunteers you need. Finding people that don't want to play is very difficult. There are a ton of different philosphies to running an event. None are right or wrong. People aren't making a lot of money running disc golf events. I'm always happy when a TD has all the information about the event avaliable ahead of time. Alot of the smaller events bring out new players.
I'd argue that Peoria and Hamilton will be comparable to any of those events. I thought Sinnissippi was a great event as well. There are positives and negatives of running 1 and 2 day events. There is 1 course in the Chicagoland Area that would be comparable to any on the list. I'd say that would be Highland in Joliet and i'm sure you could argue that. Hopefully the event in October will be comparable to some bigger events. I think it has potential to be that.
My expectations vary from one event to the other. I played an A-Tier that I will never go back to. When i'm paying $100 and staying over night I expect the course to be marked prior to the round. I've been back to the same B-Tier every year even though the guy with the registration cards showed up an hour late and there always seems to be some type of debacle. The free lunch and dinner makes up for it.
Entry fee, distance, course, & number of players are my biggest factors.
I cannot stand contests and games after events. They take forever!
Don't be that guy that goes up to the TD immediately after an event asking for your prizes. Have someone pick them up for you or wait untl the storm has passed.
So what are the three best tournaments you've played this year? And why?
Roscoe's Revenge - Ams: Unbelievable amateur value, good course, efficiently run, really nice TDs, cheap lunch available at the course, Kira won in Advanced Women
Harbin Rat: 200% amateur value, good course, efficiently run, really nice TDs, Kira won in Rec Men
Michigan State Championships: good amateur value, great courses, efficiently run, I got to hork off Peter Wyngard in an official capacity, I threw a 980 round in the MA2 pool that would have been 1000+ rated in the pro pool.
All three of these had hype. Two filled on pre-reg and one didn't fill only because they ran four pools.
1. KC PRO/AM Worlds
What an awesome week! The $225 entry fee was worth every penny. The courses in Kansas City are very fun and rival Des Moines as my favorite place to play disc golf. I have some great memories from this event.
2. Greater Peoria Open A-Tier
3 really fun coures with an $80 entry fee. Free place to stay. 50 + pros with great payouts. Loved the 27 hole layout with tee times on Sunday. I played good Saturday and got a chance to sleep in Sunday. Event ran smoothly.
3. Mad City Open A-Tier
3 really fun courses. $100 entry with 47 pros. Solid payouts. Event ran smoothly even with nasty weather on Saturday. 1 round Sunday morning. I waited around for the final 9 to start and everyone to clear the pavillion. I asked nicely to get my check. They gave it to me and I was home before the final 9 was done.
4. DISContinuum Presents IOS #3 Sinnissippi Open B-Tier
Best 1 day event I played all year. 48 holes of disc golf for $50. Fun course and great payouts. 32 pros. Lunch offered onsite for a very good price.
The Homie will be added later this year. Always a big turnout & free lunch/dinner.
Quote from: Bruce Brakel on September 20, 2009, 07:10:17 PM
So what are the three best tournaments you've played this year? And why?
This is probably a good way to answer the original question and stem some good opinions.
MI State Championships - Great camping, great area and great courses. When you don't miss the first 4 holes, it's also of good value on the payout side. Fun to watch the final 9 skins game. I'll let everyone know again next year that they should go even though no one else ever has yet!
USADGC - This tournament would be up at the top if it wasn't as stressful! Very well run and makes you feel like a true disc golf professional. Great atmosphere, caddy books, tons of spotters, announcer on the first tee, food all day and a good gallery to boot. Making a great shot on the 18th hole in front of a ton of people is always fun, great to sit and watch and catch up with friends.
Cracked Plastic/Lumberjack - I almost look at these two tournaments like one tourney since they are a month apart in generally the same area. While a bit pricey on the entry fee side of the table, you get a 2 disc player pack and lunch between rounds. Teepads are well de-iced and taken care of for February/March and they get the competitive gears turning for the upcoming busy season. Good payouts at the end of the day and some of the more competitive couple of events of the year since they are the only B tiers for hundreds of miles those weekends.
Homie is always a great event regardless of whatever new setback comes up with the crew running things and would be on any list like this. I have also always enjoyed the Channahon Classic and Prairie Open when I've been able to attend.
#1 KC Worlds
900 players and I got to be around the best in the world. Really fun courses and the event ran smoothly for a whole week. A great disc golf vacation.
#2 Sinnissippi
Free place to stay, good entry fee, great course, well run but a LONG day!
#3 Libertyville
Close to home, cheap, great course setup with 11 extra holes, tourney run smoothly.
Hopefully Hamilton and Springfield will be moving onto this list after the year is done. Unfortunately I have to miss the Homie.
Quote from: can't putt on September 20, 2009, 08:49:00 AM
It seems to me that Illinois tournaments have simply become one big league. In my opinion, tournaments should be EVENTS. Events that one puts on their calendar weeks in advance, looks forward to, and prepares for. Neighboring states put on events. Homie, Mad City Open, Northwoods Open all come to mind. What separates these tournaments from the run of the mill?
Quote from: can't putt on September 20, 2009, 02:51:44 PM
I agree that there is room for both more casual tournaments and events. I think the IOS Rockford A tier last year was an example of an event.
You mention several two-day tournaments as "events". If you can leave the house after 7 AM and get home before 7 PM the same day, is it much more than a long day playing disc golf? One day tournaments sure are convenient, but they lack an "event" luster.
There aren't too many multiple-day tournaments around here, and that goes for the midwest in general. Look at the sanctioned B-tiers in June of this year: seventeen events in western/southwestern states and they are ALL two days; eighteen events in midwestern states and only three are two days.
It helps to have multiple quality courses and compentent TD's to draw a) a lot of participants & b) some notable touring pros, for a two-day tournament. Most tournaments around here have one or the other, but seldom both.
Quote from: tjdub26936 on September 21, 2009, 09:30:55 AM
Quote from: can't putt on September 20, 2009, 08:49:00 AM
It seems to me that Illinois tournaments have simply become one big league. In my opinion, tournaments should be EVENTS. Events that one puts on their calendar weeks in advance, looks forward to, and prepares for. Neighboring states put on events. Homie, Mad City Open, Northwoods Open all come to mind. What separates these tournaments from the run of the mill?
Quote from: can't putt on September 20, 2009, 02:51:44 PM
I agree that there is room for both more casual tournaments and events. I think the IOS Rockford A tier last year was an example of an event.
You mention several two-day tournaments as "events". If you can leave the house after 7 AM and get home before 7 PM the same day, is it much more than a long day playing disc golf? One day tournaments sure are convenient, but they lack an "event" luster.
There aren't too many multiple-day tournaments around here, and that goes for the midwest in general. Look at the sanctioned B-tiers in June of this year: seventeen events in western/southwestern states and they are ALL two days; eighteen events in midwestern states and only three are two days.
It helps to have multiple quality courses and compentent TD's to draw a) a lot of participants & b) some notable touring pros, for a two-day tournament. Most tournaments around here have one or the other, but seldom both.
This could easily lead to a discussion on how we need better courses out here in order to have a good enough reason to make it a multiple day tournament. A lot of these courses it's either 1 set of shorts and 1 set of longs or two sets of the same tees, and ok, I'm satisfied. A player going back a second day to play the same thing again would be boring. You either need to find another good course that's in the same area to keep things interested or just leave it at a one day tournament.
I would love to see more people step up that want to help run an event and make more enticing events happen. When you have a limited pool of available people to help make things happen, you wind up with your hands tied and can't do as much.
I haven't played as many events our tournaments or whatever this year so I cannot give a list of the so-called good ones. The one factor that seems to exist on all the good ones is volunteer help. Its great when a small group of people or a single person runs a tournament. This is because the number one factor for my attendance is a combination of geopraphy and time that has nothing to do with whoever is running things. There are great events I can't get to and less great ones that fit into my schedule. However, its always better when there are more friends, family, helpers or whever around to make things work. Some people look for a great course or a great TD. Bottom line- I pretty much know that if Adrian Sr. is at an event its going to be a good one. If players are stepping up to help the TD it will be even better.
One element that I do not like is small pools for ratings purposes. This has happened in tournaments that I have really enjoyed this year. The TD wants to make it easier for lower rated players and has them play all shorts. Inttermediates and above play all longs or longs/shorts. There is a round where some of the players on the course are on the longs and some on the shorts. This leads to statistical anomolies because there is a smaller sample of players and because there is a higher precentage of unrated or non-member players in Novice and Recreational divisions. I would rather play Advanced and come in last and get a more accurately rated round than win Novice and have a screwy rating. The solution- have everybody play the same course during a given round.
According to the tier requirements I don't think B tiers were ever exclusively meant to be "EVENTS". The minimum distance between two B tiers is 100 miles. Expected minimum amateur attendance is 48. Minimum number of holes played is 36. PDGA per player fee is $3. Minimum cash added if pro B tier is $500. All of those numbers mean to me that we should not expect B tiers to be "EVENTS" but rather tournaments. That does not mean that some people will have B tier "EVENTS".
When the IOS was established 7 years ago there were no sanctioned tournaments on any of the courses that we ran tournaments on for at least 10 years. Our goal was to run efficient tournaments that we wanted to play. Running split day tournaments enabled all of our volunteers to be able to play at least one day and we were able to accommodate all divisions in one weekend.
In order for the IOS tournaments to step up to event status we would need a handful of volunteers to step up in addition to the people that already help run it. There are way more people that help other than Brakels and Brett that many people don't know about. It would require another platoon full of people to put on what most people would agree is an "EVENT". If interested in volunteering for the 2010 IOS, please contact me!
I like having all tournament information (layouts, times, special rules, player party, etc) posted online well before the event. No surprises come Saturday or Sunday morning.
Food is great, free food is awesome.
Yesterday at the Pataspco Picnic, they had food waiting for us and 2 kegs of beer (1 was Sierra Nevada).
I think I painted with too broad a brush in the OP when I said "Illinois" tournaments. I am not familiar enough with tournaments outside the greater Chicago area. What I meant to say, and should have said, was "Chicagoland" tournaments.
So, there is some variation in what people like, but in general it seems the things that make tournaments good are the things that require a lot of volunteers. I think this is consistent with what we see in "event" tournaments -- they are often run with a lot of club and/or family support. Given that, why do we pay the same or more for local tournaments that don't have the ammenities that volunteers can provide? Why is the most expensive tournament in the area this year a Pro-C/Am-B tournament in a run down park with dirt tees and very limited volunteer support that charged $52 for open divisions and $32 for all am divisions if they pre-registered?
If we are going to have so many tournaments offered throughout the year, shouldn't the run-of-the-mill tourneys be priced more like some of the non-Chicago B and C tier tourneys? The Capital City Challenge is coming up priced at $40 for open, $35 for advanced, $25 for intermediate and $15 for rec. All players will recieve a dry fit shirt in their player's pack. This is the value I'd like to support in the Chicago area. Let's reserve the high fees for the few special events that clubs can put together.
If the most expensive tournament in your area is $32 for Advanced, I'd say that's pretty cheap compared to most areas. Except when I've played an IOS, $32 for Advanced is probably the least i've paid anywhere in the five states i've played in this year.
As for charging all divisions the same, if they are all getting the same deal, why shouldn't they pay the same price? Whoever came up with the idea that Rec or Novice should be a ghetto division with a cheap entry fee and little or no payout? Or that Advanced should bear all the burden of tournament overhead with higher entry fees?
Whoever they are, they can feel free to run that tournament.
Quote from: can't putt on September 21, 2009, 02:33:55 PM
If we are going to have so many tournaments offered throughout the year, shouldn't the run-of-the-mill tourneys be priced more like some of the non-Chicago B and C tier tourneys? The Capital City Challenge is coming up priced at $40 for open, $35 for advanced, $25 for intermediate and $15 for rec. All players will recieve a dry fit shirt in their player's pack. This is the value I'd like to support in the Chicago area. Let's reserve the high fees for the few special events that clubs can put together.
This paragraph gives a bad analogy. The CCC did get a sponsor to give away polo shirts, but only if you pre-reg'd before a certain date. That promotion is now over, and everyone playing is not receiving one. I played this event last year, I had a great time. The club did a great job pulling it together, and I'd love to see clubs pull together more events more than just me or the Brakel's or another Chicagoland TD trying to pull something together. The entry fee was also $15 for Rec. Last year I got a regular t-shirt and a water bottle (higher divisions also got a disc). There was a trophy disc for 1st place, no additional payouts.
If you really want to compare, the "high fees" at my tournaments will get you a $15 Reward dollars player pack and $15 Reward dollars added to the payout purse for your division. Then it's typically about $3 Reward dollars added to the CTP/Top Your Card prize pool. So for every $30 entry, $33 worth of prizes get paid out, and that's if I have zero additional sponsors. This year I've had additional sponsorship from Fade Gear, Clash DVD's, my own company, and I'm sure other places (I'm sorry for forgetting who you are off the top of my head).
It hasn't been established that $30 is a high fee - there are some that are higher than this, and some that are lower than this. I encourage you to play in a "run of the mill" Chicagoland tournament instead of making presumptions. I know you played the Ice Bowl and I see on the PDGA site that you played the GMO this year - I don't know if there was anything else since the last ratings update. The last one that I ran myself that you played was Irish '08, and yes, that was a debacle on my part because I spent all my time making the player handbooks that people enjoyed but also said weren't required. I did not expect 80 walkups on a frigid weather day. I would encourage you to check back in at another tournament to see how things have changed. In fact, I dropped the prices by $5 across the board for Channahon this weekend to encourage more people to come out and play. It's a perfect opportunity.
I hope to be at Channahon this weekend. I was glad to see you lower the price. Hopefully that will help you fill some spots ... I know pre-reg is pretty low to date.
IIRC at Bloomington/Normal last year (two years ago?) $5.00 Rewards was not the equivalent of $5.00 Cash. Does that still hold true?
That is correct, but if I was to accept an entry fee of $30 cash and then give away $33 cash, that certainly sounds like a terrible waste of my time to be there. Keep in mind that there's also the $3/player PDGA fee that TD's pay for B-Tiers (all but one of my events have been AM B-Tier, so even the Pro's I have to pay $3 each), there's $75 sanctioning, $50 insurance, and depending on the course, course rental and pavilion rental fees. Reward dollars just give me back the cost + sales tax on my discs (core price and minimal consideration for the overhead costs - shipping to get the discs, fees if I had the discs already listed online, etc). It's the same concept as brass cash except I offer cash payment discounts right on the price tag.
I've taken about a dozen pre-reg's in the past 24 hours, so it's starting to pick up. Make sure to pre-reg because it's $5 higher at the tournament. Actually, you need to defend your Grandmaster title! I have 6 pre-reg's for Advanced Grandmaster already (1 is sitting in my email not on the list yet). A lot of the "regulars" that talked to me at the Ace Race told me they were planning on signing up this week as well. There should be at least 50-60 players each day.
Al Babbe won Adv. Grandmaster at Channy last year, not me.
well, I meant the Irish You the Best of Luck @ Channahon victory. Sorry, I was going for extra incentive :P
Quote from: can't putt on September 21, 2009, 02:33:55 PM
$52 for open divisions and $32 for all am divisions if they pre-registered?
The Capital City Challenge is coming up priced at $40 for open, $35 for advanced, $25 for intermediate and $15 for rec. All players will recieve a dry fit shirt in their player's pack. This is the value I'd like to support in the Chicago area.
$52 and $32 for Ams & Pro events is standard to what is being offered across the country for 1 day events. Most of the time that is on the lower side in terms of Adv and Pro. I am one that agrees with Bruce. I don't believe the higher am divisions should have to pay more than the other am divisons. Making a choice strictly on entry fee promotes sandbagging.
As far as the CCC. Several years ago the entry fee was $40 for the Advanced Amateur Divisions and $30 for the Intermediate Divisions.
http://discontinuum.org/index.php?option=com_smf&Itemid=26&topic=3539.0
Along with the cheaper lower divisions comes another problem. I heard quite a few of the Recreational players complaining at the CCC about not winning anything.
I actually think the value at Chicagoland events in terms of entry, player packs, and payouts is above the norm compared to other scenes. There isn't much that can be done in terms of the courses that are here. If we had courses that some of the other places have you'd have people getting turned away at every event.
While i'm on a roll.
Trophies are a very tricky situation for TD's.
Cost. IMO there are many lame trophies that cost a lot of money. The more money put into trophies for the few, the less payout for the others. I have seen very few good trophies over the years and expect nothing special for C & B-Tiers. I am fine with an event giving out lame trophies knowing they didn't take away from the payouts.
Number. There are a ridiculous amount of divisions offered at events. Do you purchase a $20 trophy for the Advanced Masters Division and hope one shows? Ok, 2 Advanced Master registers so you get a trophy and they decides to change to Advanced. What do you do with the $20 trophy you had made.
I've seen some very creative trophy options. Some better than others. It usually comes down to a volunteer who donates time and material.
At the end of the day I don't believe trophies make a good event. The players getting them are already happy with the way they've played. The majority of the field really does not care since they did not get one.
Quote from: CEValkyrie on September 21, 2009, 06:41:39 PM
While i'm on a roll.
Trophies are a very tricky situation for TD's.
Cost. IMO there are many lame trophies that cost a lot of money. The more money put into trophies for the few, the less payout for the others. I have seen very few good trophies over the years and expect nothing special for C & B-Tiers. I am fine with an event giving out lame trophies knowing they didn't take away from the payouts.
Number. There are a ridiculous amount of divisions offered at events. Do you purchase a $20 trophy for the Advanced Masters Division and hope one shows? Ok, 2 Advanced Master registers so you get a trophy and they decides to change to Advanced. What do you do with the $20 trophy you had made.
I've seen some very creative trophy options. Some better than others. It usually comes down to a volunteer who donates time and material.
At the end of the day I don't believe trophies make a good event. The players getting them are already happy with the way they've played. The majority of the field really does not care since they did not get one.
Regarding trophies, there have been a couple of recent events that I have attended where there haven't been trophies at the event. I understand about not having a trophy prepared for every single division. But with the larger divisions there will be players. I am sure everyone has their own opinion, and I don't know the official pdga stance, but wouldn't trophies be considered part of the payout?
I am not saying a good trophy makes a good event, but not having a trophy at all seems like the TD wasn't prepared for the event. This isn't a complaint, I realize that being a TD takes a great deal of effort, which I truly appreciate, but not having any trophies the day of the event at least for the bigger divisions seems a little lackadaisical.
Every dollar spent on trophies takes potentially two dollars out of the am payouts, since trophies cost real dollars and ams are paid in funny money. And for the pros it is dollar for dollar if the TD charges the pros for their trophies. Most pros, about 60-40, are fine with no trophies at all at a C or B tier. I've actually done surveys. The rest, like Brett, prefer something that is homemade and not cash sucking.
I like to get a trophy when I win. It helps me remember the tournament. I doubt I would remember a stupid unsanctioned Tom C. doubles tournament win if I didn't have the ugly trophy substitute his father-in-law made sitting on my shelf. I have all 3 of my my trophies for pro wins on my wall.
I liked the IOS dyed trophy disc concept. Those trophies only cost the tournament $8 each, or so, and about 12 hours of my donated time each tournament. Those trophies cost every cashing am 4 funny dollars per tournament on the average, first through last cash. That's not too much to pay.
Trophies are figured into the payout that is reported to the PDGA but trophies are not a PDGA requirement. I agree with Brett and Tom. A good event should have trophies and the TD is cool if he can keep the price down so that it does not deter from the other prizes. I am proud to say that no IOS has taken money out of the payouts to pay for the trophies. Ever.
Trophies is the main reason that I want to limit the division options when I run tournaments. It's too easy to get stuck with some if people flop divisions or ask for a refund that night before. Trophies cost either time or money. If they are used great, but I don't like to waste either of those if I don't have to.
Quote from: pickax on September 21, 2009, 07:31:20 PM
Trophies is the main reason that I want to limit the division options when I run tournaments. It's too easy to get stuck with some if people flop divisions or ask for a refund that night before. Trophies cost either time or money. If they are used great, but I don't like to waste either of those if I don't have to.
I agree 100% with you there Mike. The funnest tournament i've run was the Chicagoland Am Champs where there were only 4 divisions. I had the trophies done weeks in Advanced. Although they are supberb they are a decent trophy option. Along with limiting trophy options it makes everything much easier to deal with when the divisions are limited.
From my perspective, I don't care if the cost is $25 or $50 as long as it's competitive and even mostly well run. Cost is a very limiting factor to me, but it seems to be growing in high importance for a lot of people. Not that it shouldn't be, just seeing that a lot lately. I also like less divisions, because I feel that it makes it more competitive. More people in a division means that each shot counts more and more. I personally don't think it's necessary to have age restricted divisions when there are 5 potential rating based divisions when including open in the mix.
In my opinion, what would really make a good tournament would be if we were to jettison this idea that pros play for cash and ams play for discs. Why not, top division plays for added cash when the TD really has some and isn't just skimming it off the ams, and every other division plays for their own entry fees?
I always hear TDs, like Pitner above, claim they aren't making much off the merchastravaganza aspect of the amateur tournament, but they make some money on cash sales. I know that was true for me, but i had higher expenses than your average merchlord, and back when i ran tournaments closer to home I always fattened the am payouts. So if you're not making that much humping the discs for Innova et aliunde, why do it? If you weren't giving away so many discs as part of the break-even amateur carnival game, you'd surely sell a lot more.
This is what I'm suggesting:
A one-day tournament with a really low entry fee, like $5 for pros and $10 for ams. The entry fee pays for PDGA fees, sanctioning and insurance, pavillion rental, trophies, and if there's money left over, cash CTPs. My spreadsheet says there will be $400-$500 left over for cash CTPs if it fills. A $10 cash CTP on every hole every round.
Everyone has the option of paying $20 or $40 towards the cash side game. We divide the field into equal sized flights based on PDGA rating, and each flight plays for the cash they put into the side game. Half-in players play by IOS Half-In rules.
We'd limit pre-reg to PDGA members with ratings because this would fill every time and we want rated players for the side game. For a full field of 100 players, five 20-player flights seem about right to me.
If there is actual sponsor or club added cash it all goes to the top flight, and anyone who'd rather play for the added cash than play in the flight indicated by their rating can sign up for the top flight. It would be a sucker bet, but there are always suckers for every sucker bet!
I've broken down a couple of our tournaments using this format just to see how it shakes out. Your top rated advanced players and top pro masters lose their protected status and have to compete to cash. And they often do cash. The middle flights are really competitve, and you never know where the breaks will fall. Sometimes only 30 rating points separate the top from the bottom in the middle flights.
The bottom players in the bottom flight lose their protected one and two-player divisions. Maybe they want to opt out of the cash game. That's their call. Maybe they want to sell hot dogs and make some money. ;D
Quote from: Bruce Brakel on September 21, 2009, 10:12:49 PM
In my opinion, what would really make a good tournament would be if we were to jettison this idea that pros play for cash and ams play for discs. Why not, top division plays for added cash when the TD really has some and isn't just skimming it off the ams, and every other division plays for their own entry fees?
I always hear TDs, like Pitner above, claim they aren't making much off the merchastravaganza aspect of the amateur tournament, but they make some money on cash sales. I know that was true for me, but i had higher expenses than your average merchlord, and back when i ran tournaments closer to home I always fattened the am payouts. So if you're not making that much humping the discs for Innova et aliunde, why do it? If you weren't giving away so many discs as part of the break-even amateur carnival game, you'd surely sell a lot more.
This is what I'm suggesting:
A one-day tournament with a really low entry fee, like $5 for pros and $10 for ams. The entry fee pays for PDGA fees, sanctioning and insurance, pavillion rental, trophies, and if there's money left over, cash CTPs. My spreadsheet says there will be $400-$500 left over for cash CTPs if it fills. A $10 cash CTP on every hole every round.
Everyone has the option of paying $20 or $40 towards the cash side game. We divide the field into equal sized flights based on PDGA rating, and each flight plays for the cash they put into the side game. Half-in players play by IOS Half-In rules.
We'd limit pre-reg to PDGA members with ratings because this would fill every time and we want rated players for the side game. For a full field of 100 players, five 20-player flights seem about right to me.
If there is actual sponsor or club added cash it all goes to the top flight, and anyone who'd rather play for the added cash than play in the flight indicated by their rating can sign up for the top flight. It would be a sucker bet, but there are always suckers for every sucker bet!
I've broken down a couple of our tournaments using this format just to see how it shakes out. Your top rated advanced players and top pro masters lose their protected status and have to compete to cash. And they often do cash. The middle flights are really competitve, and you never know where the breaks will fall. Sometimes only 30 rating points separate the top from the bottom in the middle flights.
The bottom players in the bottom flight lose their protected one and two-player divisions. Maybe they want to opt out of the cash game. That's their call. Maybe they want to sell hot dogs and make some money. ;D
I completely agree with you! I know a guy who typically places in Adv and he gets disc after disc which is great but money would be nice. Especially if he decides to drive to places like Wisconsin or Indiana
I like that idea, Bruce. In fact, I like it lot. The hitch I see is that people who find themselves on the flight bubble won't know in what division they would fall until registration is complete. Their decision to opt in to the side game could well be dependent on that breakpoint. Opting in or out after the flights were established would solve that problem, but would increase pre-tournament complexity and time.
Still, I like the idea. It solves one of my biggest pet peeves -- being forced through registration fees to buy crap I don't want. Like Damon, I appreciated and availed myself of the trophy only option. It's not that I mind paying for value -- far from it. It's that player packs or forced consumerism from a single source don't represent value to me.
The bubble boys' dilemma is part of the thing.
Most pros would get in for full because that's what they are used to paying for a tournament. Most intermediates and rec players would get in for half because that's what they are used to paying. But if most middle ams do get in for half, then there's an incentive for a middle am to get in for full in hopes of cashing and sweeping up all those unclaimed halves. So there's some game theory at work there.
I would get in for full because in every scenario I've run, the 930-940 rated amateur has a fair chance of cashing in the second flight.
1.Distance.
Driving sucks. Getting home at a decent time is cool. TD rep with smoothly running also comes into play here.
2.Good Am value.
Whether that be a player's pack upfront (so I have fun even when I play bad) or low entry fee or lunch.
3.Good course.
Unless #1 is an issue.
I think Mukey's top three are a lot of players' top three.
For me it is
1. Good Course. I'll play sucky am value tournaments on a good course. From looking around, it is clear that most players will.
2. Good Value. I'll drive a long ways for good value. The drive home is not as far when the TD runs a fat tournament. And I'd rather the value be more in the payout and less in the amenities. If the value is there for the taking and I don't take it, it is enough that it was there. If I suck, I'm fine with the long drive home empty handed. It is motivation not to suck the next time. Or at least to bag a little the next time! From looking around, most players are not as value sensitive as I am. Another thing about player packs is, let's make the pro entry fee $100 but every pro gets $50 back at registration. How dumb is that? That's a player pack. You pay for it at registration. The one year we did optional player packs on the a la carte system, that was good value, but it was too much to keep track of.
3. Distance. Distance is an issue. So is whether a TD knows how to run a tournament and plays by the rules. But I'll still drive a long ways for good courses and good value, even if, year after year, the TD runs the tournament with his head up his butt. The Northern Waters used to be like that. Good courses and good value, weird "local rules" and at the end of the tournament you'd wait an hour after the last card for awards because all the TDs were playing the tournament!
Once you've said to yourself, "I'll never go back to that tournament again," then you really know what's important to you.
How about the use of different tees on the same course? I understand sometimes having the Pro/Adv divisions playing longer tees than Int/Rec/Nov, but making things complicated is asking for trouble. Two recent examples come to mind:
Wildcat Springs this weekend: the second card in the Pro Men division (all veteran players, including two world champions) played the incorrect (long) tee on a hole, the only hole where two tees were clearly visible. No mention of different tees by the tournament staff, but I heard Avery say something like "Pro weekend, pro tees" as the reason for him assuming they were expected to play the long tee. The tournament director appropriately issued penalty strokes.
Indian State Championships last month: While most holes on the silver course at Lemon Lake had multiple tees, the tournament director chose TWO that ONLY THE OPEN MEN were meant to play from the longs. This was stated at the players meeting, but the three different course rules handouts led some people to other interpretations. One sheet said the Open Men play these two long tees. Another listed holes one through eighteen on the silver course, with "Gold Tee" & the distance listed next to holes #5 & #16, but no indication which division or divisions this applied to. So, some advanced groups play those holes from the longs, some from the shorts, & some one of each after being told by others in the advanced division that they played the first one wrong. Here the tournament director oddly LET ALL THE SCORES STAND regardless of which tees each golfer played.
If a course had two complete sets of tees, each round should be all of one or the other. But if only a few have more than one, that can cause confusion. Worse yet, there ARE 36 tees, but only certain divisions play the longs from SOME holes.
Obviously, easy to use/interpret handouts and discussion of tees at the players meeting SHOULD do the trick, but anyone could insist that they know what's right and that, yes, the Pro Grandmasters should play from the long tee on hole #11 because four out of five of them regularly played this course back in '88 when that was the only tee for #11.
IOS tournaments have done a good job keeping it simple (KISB = Keep It Simple, Brakel/Brett) and over-communicated the tee instructions, thanks guys.
If you are playing a tournament on your home course, YOU should be the authority on town-crying the TD's choices for tees to all ye who would listen.
Interestingly, I was told by more than 1 local on Friday that those longer tees would be played by the Pros. Why would they have put the effort into building that wood box tee and putting out that rubber mat on 11 if we weren't playing those tees? It was a confusing situation that was bound for disaster, especially because as Tyler pointed out, the situation was not mentioned once in the player meeting.
Assume everybody is completely ignorant to the rules as a TD and you'll be better off. Assume people know whats going on and you'll run into the situations Tyler described above.
IOS had a problem with the #2 tees at Jericho Lake a couple of years ago. That is a very confusing situation as there is no really intuitive way to know which is the "long" tee as they are side by side. Long term players know the original concete pad is the short, but in the first round of the tournament there was some confusion. Second round, IIRC, the dormant tee was ribboned off.
Regarding trophies, I think there may be a different concensus between pro and am players. Pro players are probably more focused on payout, while ams might be more focused on ammenities. I think it is perfectly reasonable to only offer trophies for pre-regged divisions, and I think most players, especially those in small divisions, recognize the dilemma. As an am, I like trophies. I especially like unique trophies. And I like them to be presented during the awards ceremony at the end of the tournament. Personalized trophies fit the unique bill, but are more difficult to have available at the event. Terry Miller was able to arrange for personalized trophies at the GMO this year that were ready for the awards ceremony. That helps make a tournament good.
Another thing that makes a good event, IMO, is an awards ceremony with an audience. This doesn't happen if players are allowed to cash out early, and if the merch table is open prior to awards. I think cashing out early is disrespectful of the trophy winners. It's also unfair to those who cash but wait for the awards. Finally, it is a distraction that can delay the awards for those who wait. The merch table should be closed from when the last card is turned in until the end of the awards ceremony, especially if the TD is also running the cash register. If you have to leave early, take Brett's advice and arrange for someone else to pick up your winnings.
TD screw ups on which tees, baskets or holes are in play are totally avoidable. That does not happen at a well run tournament. At a well run tournament, tees, baskets and holes that are not in play are obviously not in play.
At the Wildcat, if the TD never said which tee was in play, I don't know how he could stroke the only group that was not psychic!
Tee assignment screw-ups seem to be a perennial feature of any tournament at Lemon Lake. This actually happened a couple of years ago. At the player meeting, Dude announcing this stuff: "On the new course, all pros and advanced play the long tee on hole whatever. I don't know the number. It was a temp hole that no longer exists. All other divisions play the short tee." Me: "How about Am Masters?" Dude, with exasperated at the idiot tone: "Am Masters play the short tee." So when we get to the hole the guys with honors are teeing off from the long tee before I even realize this is the hole with two tees. We argue about which tee to play. They insist we play longs because the advanced players in our pool are playing longs. I announce that I'll play a provisional, and if they want to play longs, that's fine by me. I get a four from both tees and it becomes mute. Some weasel on some other card sees me playing the short tee so at the end of the round he tells the TD's helper that I played the wrong tee. The TD's helper gives me a two-throw penalty without ever consulting me or anyone on my card. When I finally get it straightened out, it turns out I was the only one who played the correct tee. I get rid of my two-throw penalty, but they don't give everyone else a two throw penalty. :iamwithstupid:
At the Aurora IOS I remember we announced it three times at the player meeting. Half way through the morning we put big sticks on the dormant tee. [I like that "dormant tee." Never heard that expression for "tee not in use" before.] One group may have actually moved the big sticks out of the way so that they could play the wrong tee! ;D
Quote from: can't putt on September 28, 2009, 12:13:16 PM
IOS had a problem with the #2 tees at Jericho Lake a couple of years ago. That is a very confusing situation as there is no really intuitive way to know which is the "long" tee as they are side by side. Long term players know the original concete pad is the short, but in the first round of the tournament there was some confusion. Second round, IIRC, the dormant tee was ribboned off.
Regarding trophies, I think there may be a different concensus between pro and am players. Pro players are probably more focused on payout, while ams might be more focused on ammenities. I think it is perfectly reasonable to only offer trophies for pre-regged divisions, and I think most players, especially those in small divisions, recognize the dilemma. As an am, I like trophies. I especially like unique trophies. And I like them to be presented during the awards ceremony at the end of the tournament. Personalized trophies fit the unique bill, but are more difficult to have available at the event. Terry Miller was able to arrange for personalized trophies at the GMO this year that were ready for the awards ceremony. That helps make a tournament good.
Another thing that makes a good event, IMO, is an awards ceremony with an audience. This doesn't happen if players are allowed to cash out early, and if the merch table is open prior to awards. I think cashing out early is disrespectful of the trophy winners. It's also unfair to those who cash but wait for the awards. Finally, it is a distraction that can delay the awards for those who wait. The merch table should be closed from when the last card is turned in until the end of the awards ceremony, especially if the TD is also running the cash register. If you have to leave early, take Brett's advice and arrange for someone else to pick up your winnings.
Well thank you for slamming my tournament once again. While I didn't have the personalized trophies available on Saturday, I did have the ones that won on Saturday available on Sunday, and the winners on Sunday received their personalized trophies at the end of the day on Sunday. The remaining winners from Saturday will have theirs mailed out tomorrow.
It would be great to have an audience at an awards ceremony, but a lot of people I've noticed really just don't care. You sound to be an exception to this. A large majority just want their stuff and want to get out of there. Some people asked for their stuff early so that they could get on the road to get to other commitments, and I obliged them. It made my life a whole lot easier at the end of the day with far fewer people trying to check out in the merch raid. In no way should the merch be closed from the time of the last card to awards, especially when you have other people working on the leaderboard to get it cleared up. People that aren't cashing and don't want to think about all of the people that beat them just want to spend their player pack and go. If you want to have someone else pick up your winnings, that's fine, but that also adds a lot of extra communication to the TD to make sure that the appropriate people get the appropriate winnings.
We did pool by pool awards at the Rockford A-tier which meant only 30 or 25 players were at each awards, and I did not hear any complaints. A lot of players said at the end of their round, "Can I get my stuff and leave?" And I said, "As soon as the leaderboard is done, everyone in your pool can get their stuff and leave. Awards are ... right now!"
Back when Brett used to do the Safari Final Four at IOS tournaments we did relaxed early payouts for anyone who wanted to get their stuff and go. I don't recall hearing any complaints. It was strange, but I preferred that.
At Mark's TADGA tournaments, he does awards for some of the players, and while they are shopping he gives out some merch CTPs. And then he does some more awards, and while they are shopping he makes announcements. And then he does some more awards and then gives out some CTPs. I understand why he does it this way, given what the T in TADGA stands for! >:D I've never heard any complaints.
In Texas one particularly strong-willed TD issues "awarding passes" with the payouts. You get a slip of paper with an A, B or C on it and the A's go first getting their stuff. This might work for a TD who would like to reduce the insane merch frenzy at the end of the tournament.
Typically I've done awards with the micro divisions first, working up to food chain to MA1 and the do the pros. I'm wondering if it should be the other way around.
I've gone micro -> biggest for 2 reasons: 1) build up to the best, 2) make sure the people from up top don't just take off and leave even fewer people around to cheer for the micro division winners
No. You are doing it the right way. The micro-divisions have a lot of players who actually care about awards and getting their trophy. At the top of the food chain, they just want their cash and prizes. The top advanced players know they are a bunch of baggers who won only because they bagged yet again. The top pros aren't playing for the applause and the adoring crowds. On the rare occasion when they have adoring crowds, and a big lead, they throw their drives at the crowd.
Wait. Is this mike on? :toothy9:
I'm not intending to slam your tournament, Scott. If you had trophies available for those who played Sunday at the Sunday awards, then you fall into the category of having done it right, don't you? I'm guessing you did not on Saturday for your stated reason of not having an appropriate picture. That's preparation on your part and an area that could possibly be improved.
Regarding cashing out early, people respond to what they are used to. We are gradually creating a culture of skip the player's meeting, cash out ASAP, and get the hell out. That's too bad IMO. It's all about makiing sure I get mine and the hell with everyone else. I think we should re-establish a culture of an awards presentation that acknowledges the winners, allows for a thank you here and there, and then moves on to merch sales. One of the best post tournament meetings that I attended was again courtesy of Terry Miller at last year's GMO. He had the pavilion for the day and after the last card was tourned in everyone gathered inside. Volunteers were acknowledged, CTP's were awarded, payouts were announced and distributed, and trophies were awarded. All to an appreciative group. It was a fine ending to a fine day. If the expectation is to stay, then people will.
I appreciated that your tournament started on time. I appreciated that it seemed to flow quite smoothly. I appreciated the clear 2nd round tee off time being announced prior to lunch. I appreciated your watching the weather and trying to get the 2nd round off to an early start. I appreciated the putting circles that Frank provided and all the effort he puts in to that course. And I very much appreciate that you stepped up to run the event at Frank's request.
You are right about the change in culture. When I first started playing the losers stuck around for awards. It was just part of the thing. Everyone who played knew everyone else and a tournament was like a big family reunion where you invite the distant cousins from out of town. This was before everyone had internet and cell phones, when people used to communicate and share information by talking when they'd see each other.
Disc golf has grown too fast for us to control the culture anymore. The McDonalds culture has come in and taken over.
I guess I'm part of the culture you guys don't like then. I hate most awards ceremonies because of their length. Mad City had me pulling my hair out. I do agree that the winners should be acknowledged and I like to know who won each division. However, I do not care who got last cash in Intermediate or Open or any other division and I definitely don't need to know what their score was. Announcing every single player who cashed can take an eternity when you have a large event where 25 advanced players cash and 34 intermediate players. It can take even longer when you have a TD who likes to talk alot in between announcing each player's name.
I would like the awards ceremony to consist of a quick thanks to the helpers, and a presentation to all those who won trophies. Quickly say the names of all those who cashed in rapid order and ask them to come up after the awards to receive their prize.
Having trophies available at the tournaments is a must, and should always happen. If not, then whoever won a trophy should get it quicker than 3 months later, or longer.
Other than that all the Northeastern Illinois tournaments are ran perfectly. Always start on time. With an hour or longer for lunch(always nice) and usually get to leave realitively quickly.( would be longer if I ever cashed)
I do agree with Dan on the fact that hearing who got 18th in the rec division isn't really necessary, I know most disc golf players can read. And the lines for cashing out could be alot shorter, by paying out only the top 3rd in each division. Not paying 50% of every field. Reward the winners a little more for their accomplshments.
Every time I'm almost ready to send you your trophy, you start complaining publicly, and that glimmer of caring gets snuffed out.
We pay 50% of the field because we are running PDGA sanctioned tournaments.
Quote from: Bruce Brakel on September 28, 2009, 05:05:51 PM
Every time I'm almost ready to send you your trophy, you start complaining publicly, and that glimmer of caring gets snuffed out.
We pay 50% of the field because we are running PDGA sanctioned tournaments.
Is public complaining not allowed?
He can complain all he wants. It just isn't working for him, unless what he wants is the opportunity to complain some more.
Thanks for the clarification, Kurt. I think that if we want to go to a model where people stay for the ceremony and everyone enjoy it, then the (at most) top 5 would get announced for each division. The rest pick up their prize before or after. Dana did top 3 at GPO this year, and I liked that. The only thing I would have changed would be top 5 instead of top 3. There was one player on Sunday (I won't say your name so that you don't have to think about your round) that was telling people "don't clap!" after I announced his name for a near the bottom of the payout grouping. So you have the feeling that the people that finish about 33%-50% in the overall field weren't too happy with their overall performance, but didn't stink it up quite as bad as a bunch of others. But as Bruce mentioned, it's a PDGA tournament, where you have to pay out 45 or 50%.
For the most part each of the tournaments i have every played (not many 6-7 now) have been very enjoyable and run smoothly. About staying for awards.. i can understand if you are driving a distance to get home on why you might want to leave early and not listen to the awards ceremony. I thought it was a little crazy at the Indiana State Champ. that the lower divisions that played white and red waited for all the cards to come in. I think our rounds ended about 4:15 and the past pro cards were coming in about 6:30ish... I don't know, i guess i just have to get better...
<<edit by moderator: have some balls jdunk or don't post!>>
rant
Sometimes I hate the internet
It's soo easy to spout negativity without creativity, or willingness to contribute
end rant
How hard is the ratio of prizes upfront or possibility of prizes later w/player packs to understand? If Scott increased his fees in order to payout better & so he doesn't lose money, would as many people come?
Big circumstance & everyone sticking around for awards for $30? Most of the tournaments mentioned, Homie, GMO, CCC, are established & worth driving-to draw type events. The courses don't hurt at all either. Most of these have some type of after round food also. If I'm not in the tip top or have won a CTP I'd like to get on the road.
Let's change this thread to "What Would You Do at Your Own Tournament"
Everyone knows I'd find a way to get food if I ever ran my own tournament
I like to stay for the awards ceremony whether I am getting something or not. I like to support the TD and the players. That being said, disc golf is a part of my life not all of it. I am already spending an entire day away from the rest of my life and it often beckons as the day comes to a close. I often miss the cereemony was I am rushing off to something else. This is the balance of my life and I presume the balance of many others as well. If I win something and cannot be there I will usually search for somebody to pick it up for me. The main issue is the time lag between last card, posting of scores and awards. I think most of our local TD's do a pretty good job on this front. What can we do during this time period? Rather than running to the car to get the post round beer, we can keep an eye on the merch while the TD adds the scores or perhaps we can help going over the cards, or if Mike K is not there helping to rearrange the finished scores in order so the TD can figure out who gets what, running the playoff CTP, shagging discs from the playoff CTP,or doing whatever needs to be done. I can do that even if I cannot stick around for awards. Another 30 minues can go a long way.
My question is...would disc golfers like everyone called up that cashed for their prize or should just the top 3 of every division be recognized?
There is also another aspect to the question of calling up everyone for their prizes. The TD does not necessarily know who everyone is. By paying out rewards publicly in front of everyone, the chance for a charlatan to walk away with the prize for someone else is greatly reduced.
Quote from: AO on September 29, 2009, 08:39:50 AM
My question is...would disc golfers like everyone called up that cashed for their prize or should just the top 3 of every division be recognized?
Top 3
Quote from: pickax on September 29, 2009, 08:48:44 AM
There is also another aspect to the question of calling up everyone for their prizes. The TD does not necessarily know who everyone is. By paying out rewards publicly in front of everyone, the chance for a charlatan to walk away with the prize for someone else is greatly reduced.
Have you ever known this to be done? Not heard second or third hand, but know for a fact that it has been done?
Quote from: Tom McManus on September 29, 2009, 09:02:39 AM
Quote from: AO on September 29, 2009, 08:39:50 AM
My question is...would disc golfers like everyone called up that cashed for their prize or should just the top 3 of every division be recognized?
Top 3
That's kind of my take on it too. Allows for quicker award ceremony.
Quote from: Tom McManus on September 29, 2009, 09:04:11 AM
Quote from: pickax on September 29, 2009, 08:48:44 AM
There is also another aspect to the question of calling up everyone for their prizes. The TD does not necessarily know who everyone is. By paying out rewards publicly in front of everyone, the chance for a charlatan to walk away with the prize for someone else is greatly reduced.
Have you ever known this to be done? Not heard second or third hand, but know for a fact that it has been done?
I haven't ever heard of this. Just thinking through possible unintended consequences of not doing all of the awards in public.
With this issue, the TD and merch guy should do what works best for them. At IOS tournaments where we only have one pool of players, we run through the 40 or so prize winners pretty quickly. Doing the top three in order and the rest randomly off to the side would not save any time for the average player. It would probably take more time and it would be harder to catch and correct mistakes in the payout process.
But, if you have some pools getting done a couple of hours before other pools, like at the Rockford A-tier, it makes sense to pay them out when they finish. If the ams are going to finish the tournaments at 11:00 a.m. on Sunday and the pros won't be done until 5:00 p.m. and the plan is to keep the prize winning ams around as prize-hostage-spectators, advertise that in advance. I have not been back to several A-tiers that have done that by surprise and don't want to go to A-tiers where that is the plan.
Top three works for me!
As does awards by division if there are different finishing times.
As does holding ace fund throwoffs, games, etc. after the awards.
I'm not sure where but the discussion of the awards ceremony has been discussed before. I was a big advocate of awarding only the top finishers.
I've put Dan in charge of reminding me for the CAC next year. I will award only the trophy winners at a nice awards ceremony where more focus is on the top finishers. The other cashing players can come see me and i'll pay them out on the side.
Quote from: CEValkyrie on September 29, 2009, 03:05:19 PM
I'm not sure where but the discussion of the awards ceremony has been discussed before. I was a big advocate of awarding only the top finishers.
I've put Dan in charge of reminding me for the CAC next year. I will award only the trophy winners at a nice awards ceremony where more focus is on the top finishers. The other cashing players can come see me and i'll pay them out on the side.
Consider what this will do to the merch feeding frenzy: Will you pay out places 4-through-whatever before the awards are announced? If so, they can hit up the merch tables right away, leaving the top finishers with less of a selection.
Have IOS tournaments allowed people to set aside merch before they get their payout? That seems like a reasonable request, with pro-active people benefiting from thinking ahead. However, there could possibly be a $ limit on what could be set aside to avoid abusing the system, something like a maximum of three discs or $50. This typically isn't a problem at Scott's or IOS tourneys because they have a big selection.
Quote from: tjdub26936 on September 29, 2009, 03:18:52 PM
Quote from: CEValkyrie on September 29, 2009, 03:05:19 PM
I'm not sure where but the discussion of the awards ceremony has been discussed before. I was a big advocate of awarding only the top finishers.
I've put Dan in charge of reminding me for the CAC next year. I will award only the trophy winners at a nice awards ceremony where more focus is on the top finishers. The other cashing players can come see me and i'll pay them out on the side.
Consider what this will do to the merch feeding frenzy: Will you pay out places 4-through-whatever before the awards are announced? If so, they can hit up the merch tables right away, leaving the top finishers with less of a selection.
Have IOS tournaments allowed people to set aside merch before they get their payout? That seems like a reasonable request, with pro-active people benefiting from thinking ahead. However, there could possibly be a $ limit on what could be set aside to avoid abusing the system, something like a maximum of three discs or $50. This typically isn't a problem at Scott's or IOS tourneys because they have a big selection.
I plan on awarding the top 3 of each division BEFORE anyone else gets their prizes. That way the 9 guys that shot the best golf on the weekend get the 1st choice at prizes rather than last chance. I'll be on the side with 4 thru last cash immediately after. We'll see how it works.
Quote from: thatguy on September 28, 2009, 11:02:39 PM
bigger pay outs cough pitner cough any way looking forward to j town championship
That Guy,
I'll be asking for dates from TD's for the 2010 Tour later this fall. I expect you to step up and run a PDGA event next year since you know what good payouts are. Please do so. I'm not sure if you noticed but there a lot less Chicagoland sanctioned events this year. It looks like there will be less next year.
Just be glad you have the opportunity to play a PDGA event in the area. At least have the balls to give your name when expressing your opinions of an event you just played.
great idea Brett.
Quote from: CEValkyrie on September 29, 2009, 03:38:52 PM
That Guy,
I'll be asking for dates from TD's for the 2010 Tour later this fall. I expect you to step up and run a PDGA event next year since you know what good payouts are. Please do so. I'm not sure if you noticed but there a lot less Chicagoland sanctioned events this year. It looks like there will be less next year.
Just be glad you have the opportunity to play a PDGA event in the area. At least have the balls to give your name when expressing your opinions of an event you just played.
With IP addresses being logged, it wouldn't be hard to address them by first name. :)
OK so here is my take on the whole thing. As much as I appreciate TDs and all they do but there are well run events and there are some not so well run events. For instance any IOS events I have been to has been well run with people checking scores, TDs very respectful and getting to know the players, most courses have been closed to the public, extra holes, decent prices decent payouts. However, I will not name names but I have been to other tournaments where they needed players to help check scorecards, payouts very low, an hour after the event finished the awards finally started, TDs taking advantage of the players, TDs not understanding the rules, TDs padding their own pockets by jacking up prices on discs or having a different price cash/funny money, TDs who complain that they are not going to see a return on their investment.
Things I think make a good tournament. besides hype, I mean hype gets people there but things after you are there.
1. Starting on time every round!!!
2. Score cards with the distance clearly marked along with OB.
3. Tournaments that help cater to women and help bring more women into the sport by various means
4. A TD/TDs who know my name, or at least make an effort to address me directly.
5. A course that is easy to navigate or has tournament signs to help navigate.
6. 10m circles so there is no guessing about jump putting
7. A course that is closed to casual players.
8. Lots of players and a good course.
9. A tournament where all teepads, OB, Mandos, drop zones, etc. are clearly set before during and after the tournament
10. A players pack with a choice is always a nice thing to have.
11. Scores are posted with in a few days and turned into the pdga in a reasonable amount of time.
12. A tournament with Officials who roam the course in case people have any questions/disputes
13. Nice tropies, or at least an effort to have trophies onsite. Waiting to get them later sucks
14. Having food for sale at the event is nice. Having lunch/dinner is nice but not high on the list.
15. Adding a couple of extra holes is a bonus and makes it a bit harder for local yokals to bag too much.
16. Good selection of Disc stock
17. A tournament with smooth transitions between rounds, lunch, and awards.
18. A tournament that offers better payouts to higher divisions. 1st int should not get more then 1st ADV even if it is all one entry fee. Pay down futher in a lower division if they have more players.
19. Offering all divisions instead of being elitest. (Exception A-Tiers)
20. A TD that makes sure to have enough help on hand.
Things I don't like.
1. TDs that complain about not making a return on their investment. If you are a good TD and have decent prices people will talk you up and seek you out.
2. Courses open to the public. Nothing throws my game off more then a couple families on the course with kids. jumping around on the teepad in front of you or behind you talking and goofing off etc.
3. TDs asking too much for their discs... (You want what? $30, That is a Glow destroyer not a Champ Roc!)
4. TDs who are late. If you say it will start at 9:30 or 2nd round starts at 2:00pm then that should be when it starts, don't sounds the 2 minute horn 2 minutes late.
5. TDs that look the other way when someone if found to be cheating, or using illegal drugs.
6. Anything contrary to the top 20 good things!
Quote from: tacimala on September 29, 2009, 05:06:50 PM
Quote from: CEValkyrie on September 29, 2009, 03:38:52 PM
That Guy,
I'll be asking for dates from TD's for the 2010 Tour later this fall. I expect you to step up and run a PDGA event next year since you know what good payouts are. Please do so. I'm not sure if you noticed but there a lot less Chicagoland sanctioned events this year. It looks like there will be less next year.
Just be glad you have the opportunity to play a PDGA event in the area. At least have the balls to give your name when expressing your opinions of an event you just played.
With IP addresses being logged, it wouldn't be hard to address them by first name. :)
jdunk is the name
Jason Duncan.. get um
Quote from: 4u2nv on September 30, 2009, 08:19:50 PM
OK so here is my take on the whole thing. As much as I appreciate TDs and all they do but there are well run events and there are some not so well run events. For instance any IOS events I have been to has been well run with people checking scores, TDs very respectful and getting to know the players, most courses have been closed to the public, extra holes, decent prices decent payouts. However, I will not name names but I have been to other tournaments where they needed players to help check scorecards, payouts very low, an hour after the event finished the awards finally started, TDs taking advantage of the players, TDs not understanding the rules, TDs padding their own pockets by jacking up prices on discs or having a different price cash/funny money, TDs who complain that they are not going to see a return on their investment.
Things I think make a good tournament. besides hype, I mean hype gets people there but things after you are there.
1. Starting on time every round!!!
2. Score cards with the distance clearly marked along with OB.
3. Tournaments that help cater to women and help bring more women into the sport by various means
4. A TD/TDs who know my name, or at least make an effort to address me directly.
5. A course that is easy to navigate or has tournament signs to help navigate.
6. 10m circles so there is no guessing about jump putting
7. A course that is closed to casual players.
8. Lots of players and a good course.
9. A tournament where all teepads, OB, Mandos, drop zones, etc. are clearly set before during and after the tournament
10. A players pack with a choice is always a nice thing to have.
11. Scores are posted with in a few days and turned into the pdga in a reasonable amount of time.
12. A tournament with Officials who roam the course in case people have any questions/disputes
13. Nice tropies, or at least an effort to have trophies onsite. Waiting to get them later sucks
14. Having food for sale at the event is nice. Having lunch/dinner is nice but not high on the list.
15. Adding a couple of extra holes is a bonus and makes it a bit harder for local yokals to bag too much.
16. Good selection of Disc stock
17. A tournament with smooth transitions between rounds, lunch, and awards.
18. A tournament that offers better payouts to higher divisions. 1st int should not get more then 1st ADV even if it is all one entry fee. Pay down futher in a lower division if they have more players.
19. Offering all divisions instead of being elitest. (Exception A-Tiers)
20. A TD that makes sure to have enough help on hand.
Things I don't like.
1. TDs that complain about not making a return on their investment. If you are a good TD and have decent prices people will talk you up and seek you out.
2. Courses open to the public. Nothing throws my game off more then a couple families on the course with kids. jumping around on the teepad in front of you or behind you talking and goofing off etc.
3. TDs asking too much for their discs... (You want what? $30, That is a Glow destroyer not a Champ Roc!)
4. TDs who are late. If you say it will start at 9:30 or 2nd round starts at 2:00pm then that should be when it starts, don't sounds the 2 minute horn 2 minutes late.
5. TDs that look the other way when someone if found to be cheating, or using illegal drugs.
6. Anything contrary to the top 20 good things!
Doesn't sound like much wiggle room here for the poor TD. There's alot of TDs that are this good but things do happen that are not the fault of the TD. I do believe patience is a TDs best friend.
Number 1 thing that makes for a frickin AWESOME tournament...................me shooting good.
(feel free to post your jokes about how all tournaments must suck)
Those tournaments are great. When Dan implodes its usually a couple rating point bonus for us lower rated players. Unfortunately, that does not happen very much any more as the Danimal has become the Zen Michler..
This tournament looks to have a lot of the things that make for a good event: http://www.discontinuum.org/index.php?option=com_smf&Itemid=26&&topic=4779.msg67281;topicseen#new
I've played in a few Iron Lion events, and Chase and crew have always done a great job.
This one, too:
http://www.discontinuum.org/index.php?option=com_smf&Itemid=26&&topic=4802.msg67297;topicseen#new
There ARE cool tournaments out there. Sometimes you just have to be willing to travel a bit to play them.
jdunk did what? i didnt write that another disc golfer did that was at that tourny. and Im not naming names and i dont care eveyone can have there own opinions all i did was tell him where to post. il be at j town tourny if u have problems!
damn I cant even read that.
Gotta have respect for jdunk's code of silence. There happened to be another disc golf on his computer who needed a place to anonymously bash Scott Pitner's payouts.
let the jdunk bash start. il go first hes only rated 904 he sucks
Quote from: Bruce Brakel on September 28, 2009, 05:13:45 PM
He can complain all he wants. It just isn't working for him, unless what he wants is the opportunity to complain some more.
and has a very good complaint!!! 3 months and 4 days?? UNREAL!! Did you have to wait 3 months for me to pay my entry fee? No, but I probably pre registered that much in advance. To make someone wait 3 months for a trophy they earned is just wrong, PERIOD!!(homemade or not) and from the outcome, wasn't worth the wait. I would have rather just picked out plastic the day of the tourny if I would have known the outcome. How do you expect people to want to return to a tournament that you are a part of, if they have to wait that long? BUY the trophies, and have them present.
I have played in over 100 tournaments in my days of this sport, but have never came across a worst TD than you Bruce( and I have been to a Brian Cummings tourny) more than once I might add. You will never see me at any event you are a part of again. Its a shame that the best disc golf club in Illinois has an officer as bad as you( some of your own members agree) ;D
Not dissing the club, as most of the members are very cool people, and I get along well with most, but you, and only you steered me away from anything you are running or will be present at for a long time. Hope it feels good, something you work at so hard to do well, you failed at miserably.
Quote from: pdga#7648 on October 16, 2009, 03:05:35 PM
Quote from: Bruce Brakel on September 28, 2009, 05:13:45 PM
He can complain all he wants. It just isn't working for him, unless what he wants is the opportunity to complain some more.
and has a very good complaint!!! 3 months and 4 days?? UNREAL!! Did you have to wait 3 months for me to pay my entry fee? No, but I probably pre registered that much in advance. To make someone wait 3 months for a trophy they earned is just wrong, PERIOD!!(homemade or not) and from the outcome, wasn't worth the wait. I would have rather just picked out plastic the day of the tourny if I would have known the outcome. How do you expect people to want to return to a tournament that you are a part of, if they have to wait that long? BUY the trophies, and have them present.
I have played in over 100 tournaments in my days of this sport, but have never came across a worst TD than you Bruce( and I have been to a Brian Cummings tourny) more than once I might add. You will never see me at any event you are a part of again. Its a shame that the best disc golf club in Illinois has an officer as bad as you( some of your own members agree) ;D
Not dissing the club, as most of the members are very cool people, and I get along well with most, but you, and only you steered me away from anything you are running or will be present at for a long time. Hope it feels good, something you work at so hard to do well, you failed at miserably.
It .... Is a disc...
Quote from: pdga#7648 on October 16, 2009, 03:05:35 PM
Quote from: Bruce Brakel on September 28, 2009, 05:13:45 PM
He can complain all he wants. It just isn't working for him, unless what he wants is the opportunity to complain some more.
and has a very good complaint!!! 3 months and 4 days?? UNREAL!! Did you have to wait 3 months for me to pay my entry fee? No, but I probably pre registered that much in advance. To make someone wait 3 months for a trophy they earned is just wrong, PERIOD!!(homemade or not) and from the outcome, wasn't worth the wait. I would have rather just picked out plastic the day of the tourny if I would have known the outcome. How do you expect people to want to return to a tournament that you are a part of, if they have to wait that long? BUY the trophies, and have them present.
I have played in over 100 tournaments in my days of this sport, but have never came across a worst TD than you Bruce( and I have been to a Brian Cummings tourny) more than once I might add. You will never see me at any event you are a part of again. Its a shame that the best disc golf club in Illinois has an officer as bad as you( some of your own members agree) ;D
Not dissing the club, as most of the members are very cool people, and I get along well with most, but you, and only you steered me away from anything you are running or will be present at for a long time. Hope it feels good, something you work at so hard to do well, you failed at miserably.
If I can only piss you off enough to get you to leave and not come back to this message board, my mission will be complete.
Doug you are a huge jerk for being upset and complaining about someone not doing something they said they were going to do.
The only thing trophies are good for is collecting dust.. id rather have an extra disc instead, or maybe a event patch that says winner so i can put it on my bag..
Quote from: tacimala on October 16, 2009, 06:14:20 PM
Doug you are a huge jerk for being upset and complaining about someone not doing something they said they were going to do.
Taylor, you can feel anyway you want, I wont lose no sleep over it. But do you sign up for a tournament to hopefully get a trophy 3 months later, after he posts and says he will make me wait even longer? No a good TD at all. But the feeling is mutual, before you posted this.!!!
I should have put the sarcasm quotes around my post to help you then big guy. :)
Quote from: OvEr HaNd AsSaSiN on October 16, 2009, 06:34:44 PM
The only thing trophies are good for is collecting dust.. id rather have an extra disc instead, or maybe a event patch that says winner so i can put it on my bag..
I have never seen this done but i like the idea... If it is cost efficient for the TD i think that would be better than trophies for the am divisons...
Quote from: tacimala on October 16, 2009, 08:56:56 PM
I should have put the sarcasm quotes around my post to help you then big guy. :)
lol, probably.
Figured someone would come to his rescue, just wasn't figuring it would be you.
Quote from: Bruce Brakel on October 16, 2009, 06:06:03 PM
Quote from: pdga#7648 on October 16, 2009, 03:05:35 PM
Quote from: Bruce Brakel on September 28, 2009, 05:13:45 PM
He can complain all he wants. It just isn't working for him, unless what he wants is the opportunity to complain some more.
If I can only piss you off enough to get you to leave and not come back to this message board, my mission will be complete.
again, you failed. wont boycott this site or other members, just you!!
For me, the tournament has to be worth the drive. I've played in a few where the TD is terrible and is more concerned about his merch than the actual tournament. I just had a situation where one TD didn't submit the tournament results for about oh...two months!! Being said, I think the IOS and the Wisconsin Tour are really handled professionally and really make worth playing. I would like to see a Northern Illinois Championship take place before the winter season kicks in
two months to turn in a TD report is nothing, try 8-9 months like with the Abominable Snowman II, that is unacceptable.
Doug,
Just a few clarifications:
Bruce is not and has never been an officer or held any other official position other than member of Discontinuum. Considering that he lives in Michigan, he probably never will.
Bruce was not the TD or even merch man for IOS #3. Brett, Bruce and I ran the IOS this year as we have all the previous years and we share most of the traditional TD duties. However, for IOS #3 Scott was the merch man leaving Bruce to help out wherever needed.
Through some mis-communication no one made or bought trophies for IOS #3. Bruce volunteered to make them after the event. He was not paid to do this. I think this is where he became a little irritated. You were picking on someone who was just volunteering his efforts to make good on trophies.
The IOS has always had home made or dyed disc trophies. It has kind of been a signature of ours. Like it or lump it but trophies purchased from a trophy shop are very expensive (unless you buy the cheap ones and then they look like shit). We have always thought that it was better to put that money back into CTPs and payouts.
Boom goes the dynamite.
Got to play in one of Mark Kruses events in Ohio. Just wondering if anyone else played in any of his events? In my opinion, he is one hell of a tournament director! Got home from Toledo before 8:30pm. We had a basket toss and Jumbo toss between rounds and played 2 rounds of 21 holes. Very efficient and informative TD and a really nice guy.
Quote from: Sr. on December 12, 2009, 10:39:30 PM
Got to play in one of Mark Kruses events in Ohio. Just wondering if anyone else played in any of his events? In my opinion, he is one hell of a tournament director! Got home from Toledo before 8:30pm. We had a basket toss and Jumbo toss between rounds and played 2 rounds of 21 holes. Very efficient and informative TD and a really nice guy.
Randy, I saw the scores Great shooting. Nice job.
what do you think of this format ?
for rec and novice men divisions only
$ 10
get a disc
2 rounds of 12 ( 9 hole course with 3 temp )
players meeting at 8 tee off 815
1 round shuffle then round 2
goal would be to get the married with children rec / nov players out and home by 2
Quote from: airspuds on August 09, 2010, 05:50:38 AM
what do you think of this format ?
for rec and novice men divisions only
$ 10
get a disc
2 rounds of 12 ( 9 hole course with 3 temp )
players meeting at 8 tee off 815
1 round shuffle then round 2
goal would be to get the married with children rec / nov players out and home by 2
I don't think the idea of 12 hole rounds would go over so well (and I'm not sure why this only applies to rec/novice), but I do think your point of having some quicker events is a good one and is something that I've heard alot of players express interest in. Sometimes the lunch breaks get a little out of control and could be alot shorter. At the GRABM Open last week my break from 1st to 2nd round was 2 hr 20 minutes.
Quote from: airspuds on August 09, 2010, 05:50:38 AM
what do you think of this format ?
for rec and novice men divisions only
$ 10
get a disc
2 rounds of 12 ( 9 hole course with 3 temp )
players meeting at 8 tee off 815
1 round shuffle then round 2
goal would be to get the married with children rec / nov players out and home by 2
If it is PDGA sanctioned it should be rounds of 13. 13 hole rounds are the least number of holes per round that will get ratings.
40 bucks to play Silver Lake on Saturday and 41 bucks to play the Prairie Open in 2 weeks. If I want to register online, thats 45 and 46. I would love to play both, but unfortunately I can not justify to myself paying over 80 bucks this month for just 2 amateur disc golf tournaments. So, I have to make a tough decision about which one to play. Silver Lake is closer to home and I've been practicing there, so it will probably win out. Have to make a decision by Wednesday though or it goes up to 50 bucks to play in a field that currently consists of 4 total players.
Wisconsin disc golf is expensive! I don't think there has been an Illinoiis B or C tier event with an entry of 40 bucks to play advanced this year. Same in Indiana. What makes a Wisconsin event worth the extra 10 bucks?
you can play 3 in the next 2 weeks, for $80.
IOS#6 and #7 for $50.00
Indiana St. at Lemon Lake for $30.00
IOS #6 and Indiana St. back 2 back days.
oh yea, and all B Tier
Quote from: Jon Brakel on August 09, 2010, 10:07:54 AM
If it is PDGA sanctioned it should be rounds of 13. 13 hole rounds are the least number of holes per round that will get ratings.
Where does this come from? I thought that one just needed a minimum of 36 holes (assuming B or C tier) to meet tier standards and a minimum of five propagators for ratings. For a twelve hole layout, three rounds would fulfill the minimum though I suppose this could be considered two eighteen hole rounds on two separate layouts.
Quote from: Dag on August 09, 2010, 07:51:19 PM
Quote from: Jon Brakel on August 09, 2010, 10:07:54 AM
If it is PDGA sanctioned it should be rounds of 13. 13 hole rounds are the least number of holes per round that will get ratings.
Where does this come from? I thought that one just needed a minimum of 36 holes (assuming B or C tier) to meet tier standards and a minimum of five propagators for ratings. For a twelve hole layout, three rounds would fulfill the minimum though I suppose this could be considered two eighteen hole rounds on two separate layouts.
You need 36 holes total to fulfill sanctioning but I wasn't talking about sanctioning. You need at least 13 holes per round plus the propagators, as you said, to be rated. This information comes from my head. You have no reason to believe me so feel free to research it for yourself. If I knew where it came from outside of my head, I'd tell you. I'm not trying to be difficult.
Quote from: Dan Michler on August 09, 2010, 02:50:09 PM
40 bucks to play Silver Lake on Saturday and 41 bucks to play the Prairie Open in 2 weeks. If I want to register online, thats 45 and 46. I would love to play both, but unfortunately I can not justify to myself paying over 80 bucks this month for just 2 amateur disc golf tournaments. So, I have to make a tough decision about which one to play. Silver Lake is closer to home and I've been practicing there, so it will probably win out. Have to make a decision by Wednesday though or it goes up to 50 bucks to play in a field that currently consists of 4 total players.
Wisconsin disc golf is expensive! I don't think there has been an Illinoiis B or C tier event with an entry of 40 bucks to play advanced this year. Same in Indiana. What makes a Wisconsin event worth the extra 10 bucks?
Played Cold Turkey last year and finished first in Intermediate with 24 players. I won $60 funny money and no trophy. Is that fair? Doesn't seem like it but I really have no idea. I play the game for fun and competition. I respect all the work that goes into it. Maybe some day I'll get good enough to feast on a Pro purse! Until then I'll more than likely keep clanking.
Jon is right. Rounds need at least 13 holes to be rated.
Quote from: Jon Brakel on August 09, 2010, 09:02:24 PM
You need 36 holes total to fulfill sanctioning but I wasn't talking about sanctioning. You need at least 13 holes per round plus the propagators, as you said, to be rated. This information comes from my head. You have no reason to believe me so feel free to research it for yourself. If I knew where it came from outside of my head, I'd tell you. I'm not trying to be difficult.
Apologies if I came off confrontational as that wasn't my intent. I asked because I was curious and the twenty minutes or so I had spent sifting through the PDGA site last night before posting hadn't yielded anything of relevance.
I should know better than to use onsite search functions. I searched the PDGA site again this morning using Google and came up with a number of references to the thirteen hole minimum for rating though I still couldn't find the ruling itself. Maybe it didn't make the transition from paper or maybe it's just buried deep where Google bots fear to tread. It appears that the number thirteen was lifted straight from the USGA handicapping system.
The twelve hole layout mentioned earlier can be played as a sanctioned, rated event assuming that it was played three times to meet the 36 hole minimum for sanctioning. It would just be reported as two "rounds" of 18 holes on two separate layouts, thus meeting the 13 hole minimum for rating. Sorry if that's repeating the obvious.
Quote from: Dan Michler on August 09, 2010, 02:50:09 PM
40 bucks to play Silver Lake on Saturday and 41 bucks to play the Prairie Open in 2 weeks. If I want to register online, thats 45 and 46. I would love to play both, but unfortunately I can not justify to myself paying over 80 bucks this month for just 2 amateur disc golf tournaments. So, I have to make a tough decision about which one to play. Silver Lake is closer to home and I've been practicing there, so it will probably win out. Have to make a decision by Wednesday though or it goes up to 50 bucks to play in a field that currently consists of 4 total players.
Wisconsin disc golf is expensive! I don't think there has been an Illinoiis B or C tier event with an entry of 40 bucks to play advanced this year. Same in Indiana. What makes a Wisconsin event worth the extra 10 bucks?
Well, the landscaping and scenery north of the border is at least 22.78% better than anything around here, so that should count for at least an extra $7.50/tournament. I am confused about the remaining $2.50. ???
Quote from: Dag on August 10, 2010, 06:57:10 AM
I should know better than to use onsite search functions. I searched the PDGA site again this morning using Google and came up with a number of references to the thirteen hole minimum for rating though I still couldn't find the ruling itself. Maybe it didn't make the transition from paper or maybe it's just buried deep where Google bots fear to tread. It appears that the number thirteen was lifted straight from the USGA handicapping system.
The 13 hole minimum is purely a factor for the rating system. The details of the rating system used to be a lot more public until the PDGA realized that they need to protect their IP better. Tournaments can be run with less holes per round; it's just that ratings won't be generated.
Quote from: pickax on August 10, 2010, 07:29:02 AM
Quote from: Dag on August 10, 2010, 06:57:10 AM
I should know better than to use onsite search functions. I searched the PDGA site again this morning using Google and came up with a number of references to the thirteen hole minimum for rating though I still couldn't find the ruling itself. Maybe it didn't make the transition from paper or maybe it's just buried deep where Google bots fear to tread. It appears that the number thirteen was lifted straight from the USGA handicapping system.
The 13 hole minimum is purely a factor for the rating system. The details of the rating system used to be a lot more public until the PDGA realized that they need to protect their IP better. Tournaments can be run with less holes per round; it's just that ratings won't be generated.
Correct. You won't find it in the rules because it is not a rule. It's more of a ratings regulation. I did find where I see it all the time. It's in the TD report that gets submitted to hte PDGA. In the Event Info tab, #2 is "Layouts Played by Division by Round" there is a line that says "Do not include rounds with fewer than 13 holes!"
But I remember this coming up in the past at Bevier when Bevier was a 9 hole course.