DISContinuum DISCussion

Divisions

Saturday June 5	Sunday June 6
Open (MPO)	Pro Women (FPO)
	Pro Masters (MPM)
Intermediate Am (MA2)	Advanced Am (MA1)
	Advanced Masters (MM1)
	Advanced Grand Master (MG1)
Novice Am (MA4)	Recreational Am (MA3)
	Am Women (FW2, FW3)
	Juniors < 16 (MJ2, FJ2)

If you are uncertain which division you qualify for, please ask.
Trophies for divisions based on pre-registrations by May 24.
All Amateur Divisions and Juniors will receive a pick-your-own player pack and will be eligible for divisional CTP prizes.

Entry Fees

Pro - $50
Am - $30
Jr - $20 (Trophy Only)
Proof of current PDGA membership or $10 non-member fee required
Junior divisions are exempt from the membership requirements.
Discount fees: Half-in for Pro divisions ($25), Trophy Only for Am divisions ($20).

Pre-registration only!

You can make your payment online here (http://krupicka.org/discgolf/oswegoregister.html). PayPal account not required, but there is a $3 fee per registration to cover PayPal expenses. If you wish to mail in your payment, the mailing address can be found at the bottom of the online registration page.  You can also register in person with Fox Valley Metro club officers. Pre-registration closes June 3, 2009 at 8:00pm CDT.

Check-in: 7:45-8:45am
Players meeting 9:15am
Two Rounds of 20 holes

Tournament Director:
Mike Krupicka
630-357-7266
oswego2010@krupicka.org

Merchandise Director:
Scott Pitner
Paperorplasticsports.com

will be registerring for this very soon as well.
Any format for the tees that will be played yet?

There will be two rounds of 20 holes: One round will be from the longs and one from the shorts. All divisions play the same layout (ensures that every division receives rated rounds). The additional two holes will be different from the extra two that were used at the First Rites from this past weekend.

awesome, thanks

Mike....why aren't the 2 temp holes being played again.  They were GREAT holes!!!!

I thought the holes on the East side of the tracks were good holes. Once I get the score cards from Aaron, I want to see what the scoring distribution was. I'd like to use them, but with the Oswego Open happening during the summer, that part of the park may be used for other activities. As it is, the park district has requested that some of the disc golfers park at the parking lot west of the course because there is a swim meet occurring on one of the days of the event.

My current plan is going to be a 13a which will be a uphill shot along the path with tight OB. The other will be from one of the alt 19 tees to the practice basket for the shorts and to an elevated basket near tee one when we are playing the longs. Cards will be required to use a spotter/lookout for that hole.

I hope you do something about that dumb mando on 17 long.  I don't know how you can say that you can easily see if a disc makes it or not. 

Also, what is up with that dropzone for the other hole with the mando (can't remember the number)?
You miss the mando and have to go to an extremely tough drop zone.  Its like you get punished twice for missing the mando?  I'd bet that nearly everyone that missed the mando took at least a 5 on that hole.  Should there be a fair chance to save the bogey 4?

It was hole 6 and this was the stupidest hole.  I landed right in the middle of the fairway and it was ob because I was 2 feet left  of the mando.  Then I go down to the drop zone and it was in a brutal spot, nothing but trees and not even a chance to pitch up for a 4.  That was messed up.  I got lucky and had a tree kick mine under the basket but it was lucky. We have never played that before and I think some more thought should have gone into it.  If the mando was moved over 10-15 left  it would have been fine, and also making the drop zone at the top of the hill with at least a chance.

Quote from: danavicich on March 09, 2010, 07:13:33 AM
I hope you do something about that dumb mando on 17 long.  I don't know how you can say that you can easily see if a disc makes it or not. 

Also, what is up with that dropzone for the other hole with the mando (can't remember the number)?
You miss the mando and have to go to an extremely tough drop zone.  Its like you get punished twice for missing the mando?  I'd bet that nearly everyone that missed the mando took at least a 5 on that hole.  Should there be a fair chance to save the bogey 4?

That's kind of funny you mention that Dana. Sang threw his disc and our whole group couldn't  tell if he cleared the mando or not. I would like to see the mando removed from the long tee on that hole. The anhyzer shot on that hole is fun and difficult in my opinion. Practice makes perfect and anhyzers need practice!

For the record, I found it pretty unnecessary as well. I understand the one on 6, as well as the suggested improvement to the drop zone.

Mental notes taken.

IOS #3 - only two short weeks away!!!

will pre reg on friday cant wiat this one is in the bag

I have trophies in process for MPO, the four main Am divisions, and Int. Women. If anyone is planning on playing in any of the other smaller protected divisions, I need to know ASAP as it takes time for the trophies to cure.

Do your part in making this a smooth running tournament by pre-registering early.

Sent the check today Mike. Can you let me know that you received it when you do please? Don't want to miss this one.

Tonight the handicap league at Eagle Ridge will be playing the long tees. Come out and get some practice for the Oswego Open. I'll be there taking registrations tonight. The Alt tee locations (13a and 19) will be marked if you want to get an early look at these holes.

Thinking about coming to this event.  what tee positions are we playing?  Long or shorts?  when does online pre-reg end?

1 round from shorts and 1 round from longs.

Tournament Information (http://krupicka.org/discgolf/OswegoOpen2010.html)
Tournament Registration (http://krupicka.org/discgolf/oswegoregister.html)

It closes Thursday, 6/3 @ 8pm Central.

I am going to try to post the course notes here later tonight, but the short of it is short tees first round, long tees second round. There will be two additional holes as well.

pdga.com info says concrete for the tee pads. I know I was just there in March, but wasn't the long tees that kitty litter stuff? Played too many courses since then to really remember correctly. Can someone help? May need my cleats again for them if that is the case. Thanks.

shorts have concrete, longs still have the crushed limestone.  Unless some huge news comes in that I wasn't aware of, they will not be changing before the tournament.  We played them last night; they were very playable tees.

cool, thanks Scott.

All tee boxes are in great shape. With fingers crossed, concrete for longs is coming soon. The course is also dry. If we have any rain the course drains really well. Park District is doing a good job of getting mowers in the woods and getting things ready for the event. Should be a fun time!

The tee and basket placement for 13a and the tee for 19 have been painted if anyone is out this weekend practicing.
13a is down near the base of the hill along the path on the North side of the path (across from the park sign). The basket will be by the path leading to the tee for 14.
Tee 19 is tucked in the trees near the basket for 18.

Tentative Oswego Course Info Sheet

General:
2m rule is not in effect.
Users of the bike/walking path have the right of way.
Short tees are concrete .
Long tees are limestone and marked with flags.
Alt Holes (13a and 19) use a fly pad tee. Same tee used both rounds.
Casual relief from poison ivy. Lie is nearest lie on line of play behind poison ivy.
Hole 19 will be using the practice basket. Please use the basket near TC for putting practice before round 1.

Hole Specific:
Hole 1: Please spot for the group behind on Hole 19 as they tee off.
Hole 1, 2, 18, and 19: Railroad tracks are out of bounds. The first rail is the OB line.  There is a casual relief area covering the gravel rail bed. Mandatory relief must be taken to the edge of the gravel. A throw from the previous lie option is still available for discs that land OB.
Hole 3: The fence line is the OB line.  Do not retrieve your disc if it lands inside the enclosed fenced area during the round. You will be DQ'd. We will have one person fetch all of the discs at one time after each round. Please inform the TD if you have a disc in need of retrieval.
Hole 4: The fence line is the OB line. The fence line is extended into the woods. On OB throws from the tee and drop zone only, the next lie shall be from the short tee. See Hole 3 with regards to enclosed fenced area.
Hole 5 long: Logs are lying in the bottom of the ravine. These may be considered a playing surface if required.
Hole 6: Mando at tree with ribbon on it. Disc must pass to right of tree. No drop zone: the next lie is marked within five meters of the mandatory object and one meter behind the mandatory line which extends from the correct side of the mandatory.
Hole 13a: Same Tee/Basket both rounds. Basket is located to left of path. Please have a spotter stand by sign on right of path to get a clear look at possible pedestrians/bikers.
Hole 15: High grass on either side of the fairway is OB. A painted line marks the edge of the OB area and wraps behind the basket. The tall brush near the basket is in bounds.
Hole 16: On/Over bike path is OB. In bounds area for hole 15 is OB. Normal relief applies.
Hole 17 short tee: Mando at tree with ribbon on it. Discs must pass to right of tree. Drop Zone is marked.
Hole 17 long tee: No mando when playing from the long tee.
Hole 19: When teeing off, each group must have a spotter out by the path for safety reasons. This may be a spotter from the group on hole 1. If a pedestrian/cyclist is hit, you will be DQ'd.  Round 1 uses the practice basket. For round 2 the basket is elevated near the short tee for hole 1. The near side of the path and the path itself are OB. OB discs from tee shots are not retrieved until a player successfully marks a lie inbounds. For OB throws from the tee, the next shot will be from the tee. If a player fails to make it inbounds after two attempts, their third attempt will be from the marked drop zone. From the drop zone and all other lies, normal OB relief applies.

where can i find the points standings for the ios series points

We have not yet posted them (they still need to be run after the A tier last weekend).

I'm happy to report that as long as shipment is not delayed any from Georgia to Illinois, I will have birdie bags in small and large sizes available at the tournament next weekend!

HEY PROS
You do realize that this event is a Pro-B/AM-B Tier event with $500 added cash to the pro purse?  Just thought you'd like to know :)

Quote from: stpitner on May 30, 2010, 06:58:48 PM
HEY PROS
You do realize that this event is a Pro-B/AM-B Tier event with $500 added cash to the pro purse?  Just thought you'd like to know :)

Where is the $500 going?

The $500 added cash is going to the MPO (Open Pro) division.

The trophies are ready, are you?

Nice job with the trophies Mike.

Is there a map for this course?

DaveO

I don't have all of the OB and distances for hole 19. But this should help out:
http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?ie=UTF8&hl=en&msa=0&msid=109692845228533224709.0004653c6cdab87e9e40b&ll=41.703918,-88.348446&spn=0.005503,0.008175&t=h&z=17

There's also this map of the short tees:
http://foxvalleymetrodiscgolfclub.com/new/eagle-ridge-map

90% coming to this event. Going to jamberee sat. so fingers are crossed. what is the deal with day of registration

Day of registration sets you back an additional $5 which is donated to Eagle Ridge course improvements.

i'll be out at Eagle Ridge tonight (Thursday) for handicap leagues and to take registrations.Save yourself a couple of bucks and pre-register. It makes life smoother for everyone.

I got back late tonight from HC leagues. I'll update the registration list in the morning for those that registered this afternoon or evening. If you haven't registered yet, I'm going to leave online registration open until noon on Friday.

Scott,

WIll you have any first run stalkers or reg stalkers for Oswego?
Grayson

Grayson - I have regular Stalkers as well as CryZtal Stalkers (IOS 2 stamp) available at Oswego.  I don't have any more First Runs available.

Results are posted.

Pic from today - some practice, some tournament action.  Photo courtesy of my friend, Bob Lockwood.

Hopefully he stayed out of everyone's way for the photos - it was the first time he had ever been out to see people playing disc golf :)  He now has his very starter set  ;D

Great event! Not sure how we managed to avoid the heavy rain. My buddy in Wheaton said it poured for an hour. Thanks to Fox Valley, Mike, Scott, and the rest of the IOS crew!. There are going to be a lot of Chicagoland area pros kicking themselves for not showing up yesterday.

very smooth tourny Mike. Well Done! A big thanks to you and all of your helpers.


congrats Matt Travis for ripping it up both rounds, and especially during the 20 minute downpour, no one took an umbrella for, halfway through round #2

Thanks, I'm beat. Scores are posted. Helpers are not yet sufficiently thanked. I will be submitting the official reports Tuesday morning so that this makes it into the next ratings update.

Many kudos and thanks to Adrian, Mike, Keith, and Micah for helping me load up the van in ultra-fast time Sunday afternoon before the small raindrops turned into big raindrops.  Thanks also to Mike for helping me get the tarp set up to keep the merchapalooza from getting completely drenched from the downpour.  Thankfully it wasn't a FULL day of rain, just some patches!

I think I'm mostly recovered from this weekend. Awnings are out in the yard drying, TD reports are ready to turn in tomorrow so that they are included in the next ratings update, and I'm already thinking about things to change for next year.

First I want to thank Fox Valley Metro Disc Golf Club for sponsoring IOS #3. Fox Valley Metro is a rapidly growing club that is seeing some great young talent rising up. In addition to playing some impressive golf, these kids were out there spreading wood chips around on the course to help get it in excellent shape for this past weekend. Randy Moore, Sr busted his butt staining signs and benches and generally getting the course looking sharp. Thanks man. Blaine Schepp dressed it up with the 10m circles. It definitely adds a nice touch.

Discontinuum provided the fly pads. I know one of them got slick during second round Sunday, but the mud underneath would have been a lot worse without it.

Paper or Plastic Sports continues to provide a great assortment of plastic and other gear. Thanks Scott.

To those that helped setup and takedown: Aaron Scott, Blaine Schepp, Tyler Williams, Dave Barish, Dave Owens, and Tom McManus (and whoever else I missed or didn't realize were helping out while I wasn't looking).  Those extra hands are definitely appreciated.

Thanks also to Jon & Becky for helping man the scoring tent and get everyone out before another wave of rain hit.

Not that she'll read this, but my wife deserves a good shout out for allowing me to take the time to run this and support me in this adventure (in addition to helping out some behind the scenes).

I'll be running hole analysis based off the weekend scores to see if anything needs to be tweaked. And in case anyone cares, I also took penalties for a mando and artificial OB, too.

Congrats to Matt "Final Nine" Travis for shooting lights out!  That is some really good shooting.

Mike this event was one of the smoothest ones I have attended in a while. The OB's and hole by hole notes couldn't been explained any more thoroughly. I know Saturday attendance was a little light, but it was great being able to breeze through every hole both rounds without a backup. I've never played the course in the summer and you could really see how much time was spent clearing and mowing and spreading mulch, etc. It's a very thick course and the fairways and all were very well tended to.

For areas of critique based on hole by hole, I'd give two big thumbs up vote to not using holes 5 and 14 long tees. That kind of came out as a mouthful, so I'll make it more clear. I think the long tees on holes 5 and 14 should not be played in a professional event.

Thanks again to all and Fox Valley for making Oswego into such a great course!

Quote from: tacimala on June 07, 2010, 12:09:26 PM
Mike this event was one of the smoothest ones I have attended in a while. The OB's and hole by hole notes couldn't been explained any more thoroughly. I know Saturday attendance was a little light, but it was great being able to breeze through every hole both rounds without a backup. I've never played the course in the summer and you could really see how much time was spent clearing and mowing and spreading mulch, etc. It's a very thick course and the fairways and all were very well tended to.

For areas of critique based on hole by hole, I'd give two big thumbs up vote to not using holes 5 and 14 long tees. That kind of came out as a mouthful, so I'll make it more clear. I think the long tees on holes 5 and 14 should not be played in a professional event.

Thanks again to all and Fox Valley for making Oswego into such a great course!

Yea, long 5 and 14 are dumb holes

maybe 14 was dumb, but 5 was acceptable. an easy 3 if you get thru the 1st gap. me and another guy in our 3 some, had 40' putts for 2.  turn a Roc over and you are fine.

I took a 3 and a 4 on those holes.


my only complaint or suggestion really. on hole #15, have the tall grass OB is fine, but don't extend the orange line all the way to the road, after the tall grass stopped.  CIRCLE 4 BOTH ROUNDS.  but neither was in the tall grass, just over the paint line by 16's tee pad.

Quote from: Steven Jacobs on June 07, 2010, 12:40:11 PM

Quote from: tacimala on June 07, 2010, 12:09:26 PM
Mike this event was one of the smoothest ones I have attended in a while. The OB's and hole by hole notes couldn't been explained any more thoroughly. I know Saturday attendance was a little light, but it was great being able to breeze through every hole both rounds without a backup. I've never played the course in the summer and you could really see how much time was spent clearing and mowing and spreading mulch, etc. It's a very thick course and the fairways and all were very well tended to.

For areas of critique based on hole by hole, I'd give two big thumbs up vote to not using holes 5 and 14 long tees. That kind of came out as a mouthful, so I'll make it more clear. I think the long tees on holes 5 and 14 should not be played in a professional event.

Thanks again to all and Fox Valley for making Oswego into such a great course!

Yea, long 5 and 14 are dumb holes

I didn't have a problem with long 5, but I couldn't find a realistic route from 14 long's tee.  I had never played the longs at Oswego before Saturday.  They were quite challenging and added a ton of difficulty.  It will be great when the longs have concrete.  Will they be the same size as the shorts?  I love roomy teepads.

I'm resisting the urge to grab the score cards behind me to see how 14L played (I have a lot of work to do). But the intention is that it should be tough 3 with a good chance for 4 or more if you look for the birdie.

The intention is for the long tee pads to be the same as the shorts. Lemon Lake really irked me with the short tee pads.

So here are mu $.02 on holes 5 and 14 from the longs. Both of these holes require a nearly perfect shot to get a birdie. Along with that, don't hit the gap and you can be in some serious trouble. Both holes could use a slightly larger opening in the fairway, in my opinion. This could be done quite easily by removing one tree on the right side of the fairway on hole 5 and by trimming the small tree on the right a bit more to make a larger hole as well.
That being said, a lot of the longs out there are designed to reward a well placed shot. Who says that every hole under 350' has to be able to be deuced? I enjoy the shots that actually make me think of the entire flight plath of the disc rather than just the end result.

A dumb hole is a hole that a variety of skill levels all get the same score on. A hole that you have to hit a precise window in order to get the best score on is one that people refer to as "technical". Many players need to take some off their power in order to have the accuracy to reliably hit the window. Few do. I don't know the layout of this course so I don't know which one this is, but I thought I'd offer up some definitions because it doesn't sound like the hole is dumb, just technical in nature instead of a power hole.

I thought 4 long was difficult but reasonable.  Our whole group thorught 14 longwas silly.  We all threw short discs off the tee because there was no route to the basket that we could imagine which would make any sense.  We were told that the intent was to clear out some brush to create a route on the right side. That did not exist.  We played it as a par 4 and unfortunately, none I communicated with Mike about my frustration with 15 long.  Everything in front of the tee box is out of bounds.  I did not like that hole. I thought it was a reasonable hole from the shorts as the fairway is right in front of you.  The fairway is narrowed but is not difficult to hit.  ...( I saw Jon's post )and 14 long is silly.  The long is only about 50 feet longer but is at a 90 degree angle from the short tee.   I threw it over the short tee and though the guardian trees letting a Roc (could have been a putter) fade onto the fairway about 75 feet in front of the short tee.  The righties in my group were exasperated.

Quote from: pdga#7648 on June 07, 2010, 12:57:39 PM
my only complaint or suggestion really. on hole #15, have the tall grass OB is fine, but don't extend the orange line all the way to the road, after the tall grass stopped.  CIRCLE 4 BOTH ROUNDS.  but neither was in the tall grass, just over the paint line by 16's tee pad.

Hole 15 without the artificial OB needs help from a scoring perspective. There were two reasons for extending the OB on the right side of 15 rather than stopping at the edge of the high grass. The first is safety with groups waiting to tee off on hole 16. The second was the OB rules for 16. By making the fairway of 15 OB for hole 16, I needed to make sure that the line for 16 was clear without confusing the matter on 15. If I had only made the tall grass OB, then it would be difficult to mark where the start of the OB was for 16. It was simpler to extend the line and not overly penalize those on 16 Long who hit the first group of trees on the right.

no big deal really Mike, just my opinion. I understand the safety part.
The1st round I was by the tall grass to the right of the circle for about a50-60' putt for 2, had that orange line not been there. (was about 3' from the paint) I thought for sure my beast would come out on a hyzer enough there, just a mental mistake I guess. I knew the tall grass was OB, I as a player, should have looked at the OB's before the 1st round.

Quote from: Fox Metro Discer on June 07, 2010, 01:53:40 PM
So here are mu $.02 on holes 5 and 14 from the longs. Both of these holes require a nearly perfect shot to get a birdie. Along with that, don't hit the gap and you can be in some serious trouble. Both holes could use a slightly larger opening in the fairway, in my opinion. This could be done quite easily by removing one tree on the right side of the fairway on hole 5 and by trimming the small tree on the right a bit more to make a larger hole as well.
That being said, a lot of the longs out there are designed to reward a well placed shot. Who says that every hole under 350' has to be able to be deuced? I enjoy the shots that actually make me think of the entire flight plath of the disc rather than just the end result.

Yes, 14 is worse than 5.  They both could be opened up just a little bit imo. especially 14. The rough is certainly rough out there!

true. a guy carded a 7 on 14 in round 2. went left off the tee, and didn't get back out until his 4th throw. That was just after the rained stopped.

One complaint we hear the most about Eagle Ridge is the shortness of the course. Maybe one of the ways to offset that would be to add some difficulty. That's what 5 and 14 offer. I don't like to use the word dumb for anything in disc golf but if a hole doesn't seem right, comments and suggestions are graciously accepted to make it right. I personally asked 2 pro players a day before the tournament how they thought 5 and 14 would play with the routes offered, both of the players thought 5 and 14 were good but 12 was awful. 14 can be opened up more without removing trees and that should be up for discussion at the next players meeting. I personally think hole 5 is awesome, but that's coming from a bad ams player. All said and done Fox Valley just hopes everyone had a good time.

                                                                         PEACE

Personally i think that eagle ridge was in the best shape i have seen it in. Thanks to everyone that is involved in working on this course. I think hole 5 was fine but 14 was a bit odd, a bigger gap is needed. Also the tall grass on 15 was a good idea but why not make the tall grass ob on 16 also. Any who, good job running the tourney and keep up the good work fox valley.

Wow I disappear for 10 hours and tons of posts are here. Sr I thought the course was in great shape and I was bummed to hear you that you were unable to play the tourney from literally working too hard. My criticisms on holes 5 and 14 were not from a perspective of insult by any means so I hope it was not taken that way and I apologize for opening pandora's box there. Obviously there is not room for a Toboggan-esque type hole where you have to throw a great drive/upshot followed by another one just to get within 40-50 for a putt for a sweet birdie 3, but when looking at those holes there is not even a good landing zone on 14 without having to make a technical 2nd shot after a great drive. Hole 5 you could lay up to the gap, throw a shot from there and go on, so there is that option there. As we called them on Saturday, there are just unfortunately the "Brett" shots that make it through unintended that create the unintended scoring spread. The deuces I have seen on 5 did not go through the intended gap. Saturday was my first experience with 14 long, andI like Aaron's comment about not every hole under 350 needing to be deuced, but it should be either not possible to deuce and make it a par 4, or deviated in a way that allows for the intended layup, upshot, putt or the risk/reward shot that pushes for a possible stroke saver. Missing the fairway and plowing through trees should not be part of the "reward" side of the equation.

I think I might enjoy 14 better if I wasn't just trying to shoot to get to 14's short tee pad and then essentially playing the same hole.  So I wouldn't mind seeing some sort of gap opened on the right side for something a little more enticing and a different look entirely.  5 long is completely different in summer than in winter.  there's one little bitty tree in the middle of the fairway that just seems unfair that it's there, but it just makes it a tough hole.

I don't see what the complaint about 12 long is - it's a good hole.  I birdied it the last time I played it by throwing a Roc anny (I'm a leftie) that traveled most of the fairway.  I then drained an 80' hyzer putt (wish I could do that all the time!)  No complaints from me on 12 at all - it's a good challenge :)

I have told some others in the past that if it was ONLY upper divisions, you could up the OB to make the course even more challenging (some of this might have been OB, but since I didn't play this weekend I don't know).  This list would be in addition to the OB that was already out there.
1: On/Over path OB
2: On/Over Path OB (if you want to go all out, paint an OB line on the forest on the right)
3: Paint an OB line to split 3/9.
8: painted line to make stuff on left OB, forcing you to place it straight out before approach unless you go for the risk/reward shot that won't kick into the stuff on the left.
9: painted line splitting 3/9 and 9/10
10: painted line splitting 9/10 and 10/11
11: painted line splitting 10/11 and 11/15 (or tall grass)
15: painted line splitting 11/15 (or tall grass) and 15/16 (or tall grass)
16: painted line splitting 15/16 (or tall grass) and on/over path

Get out that yellow rope :)

I would like to see the results from the score cards on holes 5,12, and 14. just curious. what the low score was, high score was, and average score was. PS Sr. your the man but the cubs suck

Taylor, I think the discussion is good. I will be posting hole analysis later once I get the data in. Unfortunately that might be a bit before that's done. I will post it here for those interested.

Responding to some comments on different holes:
5 Long - I've seen a number of discs that miss the intended gap but still manage to make it through. I'm not sure if there's anything that can be done about that. I usually play the layup, but of course Saturday messed up my layup shot.

Hole 14 Long needs two technical shots to card the three (and IMO doesn't need to be opened up any more). I'm hoping this comes out as a par 4 when I do the analysis.

Hole 16. I've thought about the tall grass being OB, but in the past the scoring spread was good enough without artificial OB.

I also considered splitting 3/9 at the fairway edge on 9, but the mowing line was wrong for it when I was doing the course routing.

While it is fun to be the evil TD who throws yellow rope or painted lines everywhere, artificial devices generally should only be used when the layout, terrain, and tress can't do it alone.

Quote from: OvEr HaNd AsSaSiN on June 08, 2010, 02:32:58 AM
I would like to see the results from the score cards on holes 5,12, and 14. just curious. what the low score was, high score was, and average score was. PS Sr. your the man but the cubs suck

I took a 3, 2, 4 on those holes from the longs. while the other 2 on my card took 3,4(on 5) 3,4 (on 12) and a 5,7(on 14)

actually threw my orange roc on all 3 tee pads. 12 I peirced the little opening on a straight shot, left me a 10' putt behind the basket.

I've never seen the course but I thought Scott's post was interesting.  Very few holes offer only a lefty anhyzer route, and when they do, righties say that the hole needs a fairway.  This is especially true when the route is a lefty anhyzer that cuts right at the end. 

That hole where some players were pitching 50 feet to the short tee with a 90 degree turn in the fairway there reminds me of a hole out at Stoney Creek.  I've seen players do all kinds of crazy stuff trying to get a little (or a lot) more around the corner, and sometimes take an extra stroke for it or sometimes save a stroke.  I like a hole like that.  It gives you an opportunity to think, especially if one guy in the group executes the trick shot that goes around the corner. 

The casual players will rip out bushes and small trees like meth crazed rhinoceruses.  Go easy on on what you take out. 

Quote from: pickax on June 08, 2010, 04:44:27 AM
Hole 14 Long needs two technical shots to card the three (and IMO doesn't need to be opened up any more). I'm hoping this comes out as a par 4 when I do the analysis.

Part of the problem here may be a perceptual one. Having a tee shot for placement shorter than it's following shot t'aint natcheral. I'd be curious to see how many folks had their tee shot go less than 100' or so, intentional or not. I have no problems with that shorty placement shot being valid or not but I simply did not find it to be particularly fun or challenging, this coming from someone that's been accused of being a bit of a masochist when it comes to enjoying technical courses.

My two bits? Open the gap and move the long tee back as far as possible, perhaps just past the crest of the rise up from the walking path.

$0.02...

5 long could be cleaned up a little but definitely isn't unplayable.

Some sort of route on 14 would be good, even if it's just the brush clearing for the little window on the right.

I don't remember which hole is #12, but I probably screwed that one up too....

Miscellaneous results from this weekend.

The 50/50 winners were John Knudson on Saturday and Kent Hengels on Sunday. Thank you for all that participated in the 50/50 CTP. This raised 127.50 for our concrete fund. Add the late fees in and $282.50 total was raised for the concrete tee fund for Eagle Ridge.

Jason Riley hit an Ace on Hole 3 on Saturday netting him $86. Since no aces were hit on Sunday, $114 rolls over to IOS #4 at Bevier Park on Monday, July 5.

The TD reports have been submitted and the PDGA has been paid so that this will be in the next update on 6/22. Ratings will probably disappear off pdga.com soon and will return 6/22. If you want to see your unofficial rating for your rounds, look now.

Thanks for the swift reporting Mike. I'm sure people will appreciate this event making the rating update deadline.

So are the long tees going to be concrete eventually as well then? That would be awesome!

Quote from: tacimala on June 08, 2010, 10:49:20 AM
So are the long tees going to be concrete eventually as well then? That would be awesome!

That's the plan. The club is working hard on raising the funds to do so. I'm trying to make sure that they are where we want them from a scoring perspective before they are set in stone (no pun intended).

Here is the hole analysis for the Oswego Open. Included in the first data set are scores recorded from our handicap league over the past month. Only players rated 900 or better are included. From this analysis, it looks like holes 4 and 14 are solid par 4 holes.

I also included a run over the longs between Saturday and Sunday. There is a significant difference between the two days.

I'm also trying to figure out how in the world a player could take a circle 3 on 19.

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Circle 3 would be OB, retee, "ace"

Quote from: tacimala on June 10, 2010, 06:37:49 AM
Circle 3 would be OB, retee, "ace"

I think that's what we heard when I said to Mike "Was that an ace on 19?" It sounded like an ace and there was lots of whooping afterward.

Does good score separation necessarily equal a good hole?

Interesting stuff. I have a pair of questions regarding the analyses.

- Could you explain the color coding? >70% triggers the red, presumably indicating a hole in need of attention. No idea on yellow.

- On the comparison for longs Sat vs Sun and the hole analysis for holes 13A and 19, why do the data set numbers differ from the actual number of 900+ rated players shown on the PDGA for those days? Where' are the extra numbers coming from?

Quote from: Dan Michler on June 10, 2010, 08:19:35 AM
Does good score separation necessarily equal a good hole?

In my opinion, no. Chuck Kennedy seems to talk like it is. What I think is that it is one indicator of a good hole. I think lack of score seperation does mean that it is not a good hole. If you set up a giant Plinko board on a fairway with a basket in the middle and threw your disc into the Plinko machine, you'd get a nice spread of results. This would be especially true if some of the Plinko slots put in OB or behind a tree or in the basket. If you have never seen the Plinko board on Price Is Right then this isn't a good analogy. However, there are some holes in disc golf that I've played that have some very random results and when I've played them it reminded me of Plinko. I can think of a tournament where the asphalt path was OB. Not on or over but just the 6 foot wide path. The path ran the length of the hole and was in the landing area for all skills. Unless your drive went into the woods you were going to land within 50 feet of the path. So, the OB was really just random. You threw your disc and hoped for the best.

If the hole analysis says it was a par 4, then I was good on both 4 and 14, as I got 4's on both, YAAAAAHHHH00000000!


Hole #14, could use some trimming up, but I really don't understand why I heard at least 10 people say it was the stupidest hole they ever played??  I got to the teepad, and said ok, just pitch a roc into the fairway. That worked and left me a hyzer to the basket, just like the shot from the am tee, but shorter( I took a 2 from the am tee). Yeah, I did smack a tree on my 2nd shot, but threw to within 30' on my 3rd, then made the putt. Had I not smacked that tree on shot #2, I could have easily taken a 3 from the long tee. And I'm just an old am player.   8)

Quote from: Dan Michler on June 10, 2010, 08:19:35 AM
Does good score separation necessarily equal a good hole?

Good score separation that separates the wheat from the chafe is a good hole. If it just stirs the wheat and chafe together then no.

Quote from: Dag on June 10, 2010, 08:31:43 AM
Interesting stuff. I have a pair of questions regarding the analyses.

- Could you explain the color coding? >70% triggers the red, presumably indicating a hole in need of attention. No idea on yellow.

These triggers are defined somewhere in one of Chuck Kennedy's articles on the PDGA site. http://www.pdga.com/course-design-validation

The concept behind the red triggers is if everyone is throwing the same score, then why bother with the hole?  The yellow triggers are slightly more nuanced. There the idea is that you want to separate the top x% off, rather than the bottom x%. e.g. If everyone is taking a three except for the last couple of players who take a four, then the hole only sorts the bottom players. If everyone is taking a three except for a small handful of players taking a two, then the hole is sorting out the top players.

Quote
- On the comparison for longs Sat vs Sun and the hole analysis for holes 13A and 19, why do the data set numbers differ from the actual number of 900+ rated players shown on the PDGA for those days? Where' are the extra numbers coming from?

There are a couple of non rated players who threw 900+ rated rounds. I added some of those into the mix so that I had more data points. (or I just have a typo or two).

Quote from: pickax on June 10, 2010, 10:26:24 AM

Quote from: Dan Michler on June 10, 2010, 08:19:35 AM
Does good score separation necessarily equal a good hole?

Good score separation that separates the wheat from the chafe is a good hole. If it just stirs the wheat and chafe together then no.

In Jon's plinko analogy, there would be an equal number of 2's, 3's, and 4's.  On paper, wouldn't this look like a good hole?

throwing your disc and hoping for the best? another words, poke and hope!  I hate those kind of holes

Numbers are not sufficient to tell the whole story, but they are a start. I have the ability to cut this data in all sorts of parts to analyze it. One thing I do is look at narrower ranges of ratings and then compare the two. If there isn't a difference in the spread (or it's inverted) between the 900+ and the under 900 group, then somethings wrong.

Quote from: Dan Michler on June 10, 2010, 10:42:58 AM

Quote from: pickax on June 10, 2010, 10:26:24 AM

Quote from: Dan Michler on June 10, 2010, 08:19:35 AM
Does good score separation necessarily equal a good hole?

Good score separation that separates the wheat from the chafe is a good hole. If it just stirs the wheat and chafe together then no.

In Jon's plinko analogy, there would be an equal number of 2's, 3's, and 4's.  On paper, wouldn't this look like a good hole?

It will until you compare the scores to the ratings of the players.

Here's another analogy of a hole that will give you good separation of scores but might not be a good hole:

A 1650 foot hole with no tress, no OB, no elevation, just flat grass and a wide enough fairway that no one ever throws off the fairway...like a 1000 foot wide fairway. This is an extreme example but then you understand the point. So guys that can throw 400 feet and putt from 50 feet will card a 5. Guys who can throw 350 feet will card a 6. Guys who can throw 300 feet will card a 7. Etc.

With some exceptions this will generally follow ratings (I know, I know it's the putting that separates the elite pros from the also rans but you will find that top pros usually can drive pretty far also.) and give you a nice spread.

I still stick with my opinion that a hole that has a nice spread of scores that are generally related to ratings is a good indicator that it is a good hole. But it's not the only criteria.

A good hole would be one that separates scores by ability and is fun to play for all skill groups that play it.

Quote from: Jon Brakel on June 10, 2010, 11:41:07 AM

A good hole would be one that separates scores by ability and is fun to play for all skill groups that play it.

I agree with this point Jon.  Fun.  This is the #1 factor for me to determine if its a good hole.  Think about holes that you think are fun, and they probably also produce a good separation in scores.

Quote from: Dan Michler on June 10, 2010, 12:26:00 PM

Quote from: Jon Brakel on June 10, 2010, 11:41:07 AM

A good hole would be one that separates scores by ability and is fun to play for all skill groups that play it.

I agree with this point Jon.  Fun.  This is the #1 factor for me to determine if its a good hole.  Think about holes that you think are fun, and they probably also produce a good separation in scores.

I think this is a good rule of thumb but probably more true for higher rated players than for lower rated players. Given my sub 900 rating before my back injury, I probably had more fun holes on most courses in the Chicago area than someone rated 100 points higher. A hole that I might have found to be challenging and fun, someone with just 50 feet more on their drive and better putting range might find it boring.

It's for this reason that it is hard to design good courses for multiple skill levels. But it is also why courses often have long and short tees. When you have all divisions playing the same layouts then the compromise you make is that some holes might not be exactly appropriate for all skill groups. But because of ratings issues and course routing confusion it is better to play the same layouts in rated events.

I was looking at the course statistics for the Oswego Open and compared Saturday to Sunday. Wow!

The shorts played the same, but round 2 (longs)
Saturday: SSA=56.33
Sunday: SSA=60.73

That's roughly 4 and half strokes harder due to wind and unexpected rain.