In response to smyith's comment about 'Why does Keen or Merrell or other big companies not get more involved in disc golf financially?'
Yes, a large percentage of competitive disc golfers do use these products. What is there, maybe 20,000-50,000 'competitive' disc golfers in the world? More people than that are employed just by the place I work! Big companies do not spend their money advertising to 50,000 or even 100,000 people. When there are 10 million people in the United States playing disc golf avidly, then you will see some bigger companies want to get involved. Until then, you need to realize that disc golf, while very important to you and myself, is not a popular game. Most people still have no clue what it even is, much less actually play the game!
And I'm not sure how Innova throwing $50k at a purse is going to make potential sponsors take notice. You'll have to explain the logic in that statement for me...
[Moderator's Note: Dan did not start this topic. This topic was spun off from the USDGC thread. I thought that it was important to keep the USDGC thread on subject because it is an important subject. This topic that spun off has had some interesting ideas so I thought it would be good to keep the posts. It just happened that Dan's post seemed like a good jumping off point to a new topic.]
Quote from: Dan Michler on August 26, 2010, 11:05:46 AM
In response to smyith's comment about 'Why does Keen or Merrell or other big companies not get more involved in disc golf financially?'
Yes, a large percentage of competitive disc golfers do use these products. What is there, maybe 20,000-50,000 'competitive' disc golfers in the world? More people than that are employed just by the place I work! Big companies do not spend their money advertising to 50,000 or even 100,000 people. When there are 10 million people in the United States playing disc golf avidly, then you will see some bigger companies want to get involved. Until then, you need to realize that disc golf, while very important to you and myself, is not a popular game. Most people still have no clue what it even is, much less actually play the game!
And I'm not sure how Innova throwing $50k at a purse is going to make potential sponsors take notice. You'll have to explain the logic in that statement for me...
Its not about exposure with competitive players. its about exposing them to the disc golf community as a whole (including the chuckers). Thinking that their only interest is those who play competitively is asinine. Innova doesn't make its money off of competitive players, it makes it off the schmuck who buys his discs from the gas station. Merrel doesn't make money off their Iron Man team, they make it off the random people who buy their product year in and out. You use the competitive players to promote your product to the non-competitive masses.
Why i say they need to "throw" money at the sport, is something that Jim Rome said about disc golf. (Gross summary) There are 2 main reasons that this sport isn't on a larger scale 1) Stoners and drunks are who mainstream America think dgers are and 2) there is no money in being a professional. If large corporations get involved and bring money to the sport then more people will get interested. Kind of like the "build it and they will come" mentality.
Ball golf wasn't anything until someone started throwing money at it. And as soon as that happened it blew up. All its gonna take to make disc golf a multi-million dollar industry is to clean up its image (ball golf had to combat the view/image that only "elites" can play) and to make it worth ($) playing the sport. You think Tiger Woods would have gone anywhere in golf it wasn't worth lots of $? Or LeBron James in basketball? No they wouldn't have. The only people playing disc competitively are those of us who truly love the sport.
I spent alot of time studying the history of human existence. And since the day currency replaced the barter system there has been one truth; MONEY MAKES THE WORLD GO ROUND. Its just how it is. To think that there is any other way to do it, is idiotic.
very well put.
this game will never get the $ that ball golf has for his 1st reason.
everyone I tell what sport I play the most. They always reply, so you smoke dope?? We have been tarnished as a hippie sport. Big time corporations will never throw alot of money for a bunch of stoners( or low lifes as they see it)
Not saying all of us smoke pot, but the majority that play this game, do indeed. Even the Top Pros on the NT do it.
Just ask yourself this... if you were the CEO of Chevy or Ford, would you throw out $100,000 towards a disc golf tourny? I highly doubt it.
We are stuck at playing the game, for the love of it, and for the competition. No one will retire rich, from playing disc golf alone.
I read Avery Jenkins bio on facebook. Since 2000, he has made a little over $160,000. I have tripled that and then some at my job that I started at in 2000. Out of his $160,000, how much has he spent in gas, flights, hotels, and entry fees?? Or do his sponsors pay for all of that?
Anyone that thinks they will get rich playing disc, is DREAMING!
Quote2) there is no money in being a professional. If large corporations get involved and bring money to the sport then more people will get interested. Kind of like the "build it and they will come" mentality
Large corporations are supposed to throw tons of money at disc golf to try and build the sport up? This is how ball golf became big, really? Well I'm not going to hold my breath for that to happen!
Quote from: Dan Michler on August 26, 2010, 05:39:26 PM
Quote2) there is no money in being a professional. If large corporations get involved and bring money to the sport then more people will get interested. Kind of like the "build it and they will come" mentality
Large corporations are supposed to throw tons of money at disc golf to try and build the sport up? This is how ball golf became big, really? Well I'm not going to hold my breath for that to happen!
Televsion. Thats is what would bring in money. I want to watch. You want to watch. The networks seem to think nobody else wants to watch. I thought beach volleyball had the idea. Take attractive athletes and put skimpy uniforms on them. (Nikko will have to take his upshot from the brambles. That's going to hurt...) Beach volleyball is folding. http://www.examiner.com/beach-volleyball-in-national/ex-avp-beach-volleyball-executives-explain-tour-s-exodus I have no clue what would work.
Quote from: Chainmeister on August 27, 2010, 05:24:57 AM
Quote from: Dan Michler on August 26, 2010, 05:39:26 PM
Quote2) there is no money in being a professional. If large corporations get involved and bring money to the sport then more people will get interested. Kind of like the "build it and they will come" mentality
Large corporations are supposed to throw tons of money at disc golf to try and build the sport up? This is how ball golf became big, really? Well I'm not going to hold my breath for that to happen!
Televsion. Thats is what would bring in money. I want to watch. You want to watch. The networks seem to think nobody else wants to watch. I thought beach volleyball had the idea. Take attractive athletes and put skimpy uniforms on them. (Nikko will have to take his upshot from the brambles. That's going to hurt...) Beach volleyball is folding. http://www.examiner.com/beach-volleyball-in-national/ex-avp-beach-volleyball-executives-explain-tour-s-exodus I have no clue what would work.
Thats what Jim Rome was saying though. Disc golf will not be on TV until it changes its image and gets more money. Volleyball isn't a fair comparison. its an Olympic sport. it doesn't have a tarnished image like us.
Quote from: smyith on August 26, 2010, 01:07:58 PM
Ball golf wasn't anything until someone started throwing money at it. And as soon as that happened it blew up.
What year are you talking about here?
Quote from: pdga#7648 on August 26, 2010, 02:40:13 PM
this game will never get the $ that ball golf has for his 1st reason.
everyone I tell what sport I play the most. They always reply, so you smoke dope?? We have been tarnished as a hippie sport. Big time corporations will never throw alot of money for a bunch of stoners( or low lifes as they see it)
Not saying all of us smoke pot, but the majority that play this game, do indeed. Even the Top Pros on the NT do it.
Dope is not holding back this sport. Just the same as it is not holding back snowboarding. Olympian snowboarders smoke dope...while at the Olympics!
If disc golfers were playing for a purse comparable to the PGA tours winnings, all disc golfers would be drug tested, just as the real golfers are. Therefore, half of our competitiors would fail the tests, or quit the sport competitively.
Snowboarders smoke while at the Olympics? Have you seen them passing a joint around?
If you really think, the dope smoking is not holding this sport back, you should wake up and smell the roses Jon. We are tarnished as a hippie, dope smoking sport. Large corporations know this, therefore, no BIG MONEY for those people!
Quote from: Jon Brakel on August 27, 2010, 07:21:26 AM
Quote from: smyith on August 26, 2010, 01:07:58 PM
Ball golf wasn't anything until someone started throwing money at it. And as soon as that happened it blew up.
What year are you talking about here?
Quote from: pdga#7648 on August 26, 2010, 02:40:13 PM
this game will never get the $ that ball golf has for his 1st reason.
everyone I tell what sport I play the most. They always reply, so you smoke dope?? We have been tarnished as a hippie sport. Big time corporations will never throw alot of money for a bunch of stoners( or low lifes as they see it)
Not saying all of us smoke pot, but the majority that play this game, do indeed. Even the Top Pros on the NT do it.
Dope is not holding back this sport. Just the same as it is not holding back snowboarding. Olympian snowboarders smoke dope...while at the Olympics!
From what i remember, golf didn't really become what is today until the early 1900s when it transfered from a "gentlemans" game into a sport for all.
i can't find the article i've been referring to at work, ill have to wait til i get home to post a link. Image is what i am refering to. Our image is self imposed. Just watch some of the videos that are out (excluding Clash Series). Its a lame clip show that looks like some stoned out drunk idiot was sitting behind his computer piecing it together. IMAGE is everything in the mainstream. Snowboarding is not a good analogy for this, it became an Olympic sport because of the large amount of people across the planet who compete and participate, they had no choice but to add it. Snowboarding is also more appealing because of its entertainment value. You don't have to know anything about it or even participate to want to watch some of the cool stuff they do. Also, snowboarding companies invested alot of money into their sport to build it up. they put millions into the professional side of the sport. Similar to how skateboarding and other "X-games" type sports did. Back in the 80s the only companies sponsoring their competitions were the manufacturers of their gear. no one else. Disc golf's manufacturers are holding the sport back. i honestly don't think they want to be huge. thats more work for them to do. it sounds more and more like their "lazy" (lack of a better word) and happy with their current income. Too be honest i think that getting a ball golf company involved in the sport may not be a bad idea. maybe even proposition the Golf channel about airing footage. the sports are very similar and it would open another market to them.
I'll give the best example i can for how Image changes everything. The Civil Rights movement (not the *beep*ing hippies). The young black youth of the 50s and early 60s understood that they have to change the image that mainstream (at the time white America) had of them. How did they do it, by being completely non-violent and pointing out the ridiculousness of the situation across state and cultural lines. The boys in Greensboro, NC who sat down at a Whites Only counter and refused to move changed everything. The got mass media interested. Rosa Parks and few others made small appearance and had minor affect but the Greensboro boys really did it right. Mainstream America, outside of the south, saw how ridiculous the laws were and how civil the black youths were being and the savageness with which the southern whites approached the situation. That changed their image from being 3/5ths of a person to a full person.
So essentially there are two things that need to be done for this sport 1) we as a community, including the chuckers, need to be more conscious of our image and how
non-dgers view us 2) the sports manufacturers need to dish out the money, just like the "xtreme" (LOL!!!!!) sports did to put themselves on the media map.
I have a question: has a smaller sports station been approached for taping and airing a disc golf tournament? Say like Comcast SportsNet? Its local and i've seen lots of random sports showing on their. ESPN isn't going to care about us, they have so much already they don't care about adding something small. I've given lots of thought to this subject. Bring a large event to the Chicago area and ask Comcast SportsNet if they would like to come cover the tournament. My guess is that they'll want money to do it but would actually do it. Instead of trying to create a national media market for it, why not try to start a local media market. It can grow on its own from there. Plus, if it gets on TV and has descent ratings companies WILL invest. On the money to pay them to do it. We could organize all the area clubs to start raising funds and work together to make it happen. Even get those WISCO boys involved.
Quote from: pdga#7648 on August 27, 2010, 08:57:59 AM
If disc golfers were playing for a purse comparable to the PGA tours winnings, all disc golfers would be drug tested, just as the real golfers are. Therefore, half of our competitiors would fail the tests, or quit the sport competitively.
Snowboarders smoke while at the Olympics? Have you seen them passing a joint around?
If you really think, the dope smoking is not holding this sport back, you should wake up and smell the roses Jon. We are tarnished as a hippie, dope smoking sport. Large corporations know this, therefore, no BIG MONEY for those people!
Did some snowboard get his Medal taken away for testing positive for THC? im almost positive.
Quote from: pdga#7648 on August 27, 2010, 08:57:59 AM
If disc golfers were playing for a purse comparable to the PGA tours winnings, all disc golfers would be drug tested, just as the real golfers are. Therefore, half of our competitiors would fail the tests, or quit the sport competitively.
Snowboarders smoke while at the Olympics? Have you seen them passing a joint around?
If you really think, the dope smoking is not holding this sport back, you should wake up and smell the roses Jon. We are tarnished as a hippie, dope smoking sport. Large corporations know this, therefore, no BIG MONEY for those people!
The PGA's drug test is to find player's that are using performance enhancing drugs like steroids, not pot. The PGA commissioner even said that the PGA would have the authority to NOT enforce penalties for "recreational" drugs. If the PGA suspended players for smoking pot, they would probably also lose a huge number of their field.
There was a big scandal about a Canadian player, at the Olympics where snowboarding was first an official sport (what was that 2 or 3 Olympics ago?), who was caught with a bag of weed. Canada was going to throw him off the team and send him home when several snowboarders from the U.S. and Canada came forward and said that if they were kicking players off the teams for smoking pot, that they could start with them...and then end with all of them! It is as well known that snowboarding is a pot head sport as disc golf is. This is a pot head nation!
We have not lost any sponsors because of pot use. We don't have sponsors because we aren't big enough and we don't have any spectators.
There are 17,000 golf courses in the U.S. and most of them are busy every weekend and every weekday evening. There are 3000 disc golf courses in the U.S. Many of them are used infrequently. If you go to a golf course at 7am on a Saturday there will be a line of people ready to tee off. If you go to a disc golf course on a Saturday (as long as there's no tournament) and you'll have the course to yourself. There are a couple of disc golf courses in the area that will be busy for a couple of hours in the middle of the day on the weekends but there aren't any disc golf courses that are busy every day, all day on the weekends like most ball golf courses.
Players = potential spectators (or viewers on TV). We need more players and more courses for those players to play on. And we need courses that can challenge players to continually get better. Once a casual player can deuce a hole, what role can that hole play in the evolution of their game? I think too easy courses are as much to blame for people taking up disc golf and then moving on a few years later as much as anything. If we could retain more players the sport would grow much quicker.
There will always be sponsors willing to sponsor a sport when the money is there. Players = money. Sponsors are buying the attention of spectators and players just like advertising. They aren't going to sponsor a "show" that only has 1000 viewers...they're going to sponsor a show that has a million or more viewers.
Quote from: pdga#7648 on August 27, 2010, 08:57:59 AM
If you really think, the dope smoking is not holding this sport back, you should wake up and smell the roses Jon. We are tarnished as a hippie, dope smoking sport. Large corporations know this, therefore, no BIG MONEY for those people!
What large corporation has considered 'throwing money' at disc golf, but then decided against it because of its tarnished dope smoking image?
I honestly don't think any large corporations have even considered disc golf as a potential hotbed for marketing campaigns, for the same reason that they haven't considered sponsoring croquet tournaments. Not that many people actually play disc golf.....
What is there a couple thousand courses in the country? I think we may get there someday, but its not going to happen right now just because we want it to. More and more courses keep getting installed and more people keep getting exposed to the great game of disc golf. Eventually this number of people playing the game will get large enough that the exposure that comes with being heavily involved with disc golf would make it worthwhile for a larger company to invest in the game somehow. This doesn't necessarily mean we will have a professional class of players on the level of major professional sports, but I do think we'll eventually reach a status on par with something like snowboarding which Jon brought up. But that time is probably not going to be in the immediate future. If I just ask around with the people here at work, a low percentage know what disc golf is, unless I already talked to them about it. A very very low percentage have actually played the game. And I work in Lake County which has a ton of courses.
I think there are alot of people out there with similar opinions to smyith. That somehow the PDGA or Innova and Discraft are not doing the right things to bring big money into the game. Those people just need to exercise a little more patience and realize how small this game still is.
Quote from: smyith on August 27, 2010, 09:33:16 AM
Quote from: pdga#7648 on August 27, 2010, 08:57:59 AM
If disc golfers were playing for a purse comparable to the PGA tours winnings, all disc golfers would be drug tested, just as the real golfers are. Therefore, half of our competitiors would fail the tests, or quit the sport competitively.
Snowboarders smoke while at the Olympics? Have you seen them passing a joint around?
If you really think, the dope smoking is not holding this sport back, you should wake up and smell the roses Jon. We are tarnished as a hippie, dope smoking sport. Large corporations know this, therefore, no BIG MONEY for those people!
Did some snowboard get his Medal taken away for testing positive for THC? im almost positive.
Nope! All the pot smoking snow boarders laughed at Canada until the Canadian Olympic committee dropped the issue.
Quote from: pdga#7648 on August 27, 2010, 08:57:59 AM
If you really think, the dope smoking is not holding this sport back, you should wake up and smell the roses Jon. We are tarnished as a hippie, dope smoking sport. Large corporations know this, therefore, no BIG MONEY for those people!
Your belief here only helps perpetuate the myth. Has the NFL, NBA, etc been held back by the small # of professional athletes who make headlines for being arrested for DUI, possession, etc?
I'm not so sure about that logic. Keep in mind that these "incidents" have been around as long as their respective sports. The only difference today is our access via media & interweb to the meaningless headlines.
Every sport, profession, activity, etc will always have the law abiding participants and the others that tend to bend and/or break the rules. Disc golf is not exclusive to smokers, drinkers or anyone else.
Quote from: Dan Michler on August 27, 2010, 09:50:21 AM
I think there are alot of people out there with similar opinions to smyith. That somehow the PDGA or Innova and Discraft are not doing the right things to bring big money into the game. Those people just need to exercise a little more patience and realize how small this game still is.
Thats just it, they are holding it back. Especially with this recent BS about the USDGC.
Skateboarding is a perfect analogy for disc golf. In the 70s and early 80s when it started to become a professional sport. The skateboard companies ran by skateboarders fueled the sport and drove it into the media and made it worth sponsoring and money. They dumped thousands into it with the hope theyd see a return. it took a few years but they got their return and then some.
Professional skateboarding and professional disc golf began at nearly the same time. Both had a lack of parks to play their game. Both have worked hard to provide more parks. The difference between where they made it to in the past 3 decades and were we made it to is simple. Their community put the money into the sport ot get the return. Skateboarders did and still do have an image of being stoners and mischievous. but they did it. we can too, we just need the companies with the money in our community to stop looking at the investment as a loss. its not a loss if it grows the sprt. Corses and players will come if the money is there.
Quote from: Dan Michler on August 27, 2010, 09:50:21 AM
Quote from: pdga#7648 on August 27, 2010, 08:57:59 AM
If you really think, the dope smoking is not holding this sport back, you should wake up and smell the roses Jon. We are tarnished as a hippie, dope smoking sport. Large corporations know this, therefore, no BIG MONEY for those people!
What large corporation has considered 'throwing money' at disc golf, but then decided against it because of its tarnished dope smoking image?
I can't tell you which one in particular, but when was the PDGA formed? At least 20 years ago? Whats the biggest amount of money donated to a pro purse by a sponsor not affiliated with disc golf?
Ford, Chevy, Pepsi, etc, etc, etc, don't have squat to do with the NBA, NFL, MLB, or even snowboarding, but they sponsor the events. And probably kick in alot of money for it.
It's my opinion, right or wrong. But I have been in the PDGA since 1994, and have seen where it has got since then. Not far enough is the bottom line.
Not here to argue with anyone. I just know what I see at every tournament I ever go to, Worlds included.
My father was involved in politics for over 25 years up to when he passed away earlier this year. Some of you might remember him as John Schulien who served as a Trustee for the City of Libertyville and as a Lake County Precinct Committeemen.
Having grown up in politics and making my own political connections, I can absolutely tell you that the general belief among politicians and the public is that disc golf players are nothing more than weed smokers. They also believe that the sport doesn't contribute anything to the public which is why Adler hasn't replaced their baskets for years. I spoke to Terry Wheepler who is the Mayor of Libertyville and he said it took about three days to find the old 9 baskets that were pulled many years ago. The parks district didn't even realize they still had them! He said he would go out to Adler with the Parks supervisor to look at what needs to be replaced but I haven't heard a word since from him. I've spoken to the Forest Preserve board many times at different functions and they all told me they wouldn't support disc golf on any of their lands as they do not want a bunch of pot smokers damaging the land nor does the public want the Forest Preserve to spend any money on making a course.
Quote from: pdga#7648 on August 27, 2010, 10:23:09 AM
I can't tell you which one in particular, but when was the PDGA formed? At least 20 years ago? Whats the biggest amount of money donated to a pro purse by a sponsor not affiliated with disc golf?
Ford, Chevy, Pepsi, etc, etc, etc, don't have squat to do with the NBA, NFL, MLB, or even snowboarding, but they sponsor the events. And probably kick in alot of money for it.
It's my opinion, right or wrong. But I have been in the PDGA since 1994, and have seen where it has got since then. Not far enough is the bottom line.
Not here to argue with anyone. I just know what I see at every tournament I ever go to, Worlds included.
I had an issue with this a couple years. I felt that the PDGA wasn't doing anything to progress the sport (and i still don't) so i didn't sign up for a couple years because i didn't want to give an organization money that didn't have the same goals and values in mind that i and several others i know do. My love for the game and desire to compete brought me back. I still don't want to give the PDGA a dime to be honest. Although, I'm very happy with who won the Board positions this year, hopefully they can change it up. <fingers crossed>
Quote from: fathergod on August 27, 2010, 11:06:16 AM
My father was involved in politics for over 25 years up to when he passed away earlier this year. Some of you might remember him as John Schulien who served as a Trustee for the City of Libertyville and as a Lake County Precinct Committeemen.
Having grown up in politics and making my own political connections, I can absolutely tell you that the general belief among politicians and the public is that disc golf players are nothing more than weed smokers. They also believe that the sport doesn't contribute anything to the public which is why Adler hasn't replaced their baskets for years. I spoke to Terry Wheepler who is the Mayor of Libertyville and he said it took about three days to find the old 9 baskets that were pulled many years ago. The parks district didn't even realize they still had them! He said he would go out to Adler with the Parks supervisor to look at what needs to be replaced but I haven't heard a word since from him. I've spoken to the Forest Preserve board many times at different functions and they all told me they wouldn't support disc golf on any of their lands as they do not want a bunch of pot smokers damaging the land nor does the public want the Forest Preserve to spend any money on making a course.
I've lived in 4 different states since i've been a dger. Illinois takes the cake BY FAR for course destruction and litter. The chuckers here are unlike any others. I can't tell you how many i have chased off the course in my time playing (literally i chased them out of the park). I remeber once, me and my brother were following this group of kids who were a couple holes in fron tof us. We started noticing beer bottles being left by the baskets (course had garbage cans). We yelled at them for it and told them to pick it up. They made some smart as remark and then before i knew it my brother, who had been collecting their bottles, started pitching at them (almost hit'em too). They made a threat towards us and we started to run down the fairway at them and they took off for their car like bats outta hell. haha.
Quote from: smyith on August 27, 2010, 10:21:19 AM
Corses and players will come if the money is there.
Cart before horse.
More players will build a base of consumers. Sponsorship is just another form of advertising. Advertisers don't invest in sports with the hopes that one day there will be enough interest to pay off for them. Advertisers buy consumers attention. Increase the disc golf consumer base and sponsors will follow. There is no short cut to this formula.
Quote from: fathergod on August 27, 2010, 11:06:16 AMHaving grown up in politics and making my own political connections, I can absolutely tell you that the general belief among politicians and the public is that disc golf players are nothing more than weed smokers. They also believe that the sport doesn't contribute anything to the public which is why Adler hasn't replaced their baskets for years.
I think a larger problem is not the image of disc golf but that so many people don't know that it exists. I think identifying the human interest stories in disc golf and getting those stories in the media would be a great way to capture an audience that wouldn't normally hear about disc golf.
Quote from: Jon Brakel on August 27, 2010, 12:29:12 PM
Quote from: smyith on August 27, 2010, 10:21:19 AM
Corses and players will come if the money is there.
Cart before horse.
More players will build a base of consumers. Sponsorship is just another form of advertising. Advertisers don't invest in sports with the hopes that one day there will be enough interest to pay off for them. Advertisers buy consumers attention. Increase the disc golf consumer base and sponsors will follow. There is no short cut to this formula.
Jon, this is the exact point I've been trying to make to no avail. Some people just expect money to be poured into disc golf on good faith alone I guess. Thats just not how successful companies operate.
Quote from: Dan Michler on August 27, 2010, 04:13:35 PM
Quote from: Jon Brakel on August 27, 2010, 12:29:12 PM
Quote from: smyith on August 27, 2010, 10:21:19 AM
Corses and players will come if the money is there.
Cart before horse.
More players will build a base of consumers. Sponsorship is just another form of advertising. Advertisers don't invest in sports with the hopes that one day there will be enough interest to pay off for them. Advertisers buy consumers attention. Increase the disc golf consumer base and sponsors will follow. There is no short cut to this formula.
Jon, this is the exact point I've been trying to make to no avail. Some people just expect money to be poured into disc golf on good faith alone I guess. Thats just not how successful companies operate.
Doesn't it seem like we have this argument every couple of years on this forum also?
I have an example of how throwing money does not make a sport larger or more popular. Jai alai. In the 1950's or 60's this sport was brought to the U.S. from Latin America. It had a huge fan and supporter in the U.S. who also happened to be hugely wealthy. He spent millions on the sport in the form of advertising and sponsorship. He even bought TV time to show matches on network TV. For a brief time it was a staple on ABC during the winter between football season and basketball playoffs/baseball season. However, it was not on TV because of ratings. The guy bought the television time and produced the show with his own company. Once he had spent all the money that his Dad would allow him to, Jai alai faded to a niche sport only in those states that allowed Jai alai gambling (might only be Florida now).
We need to do the things that will build the sport. Build the sport and the money will come. Participate in tournaments, join your local club, teach people how to play, tell friends about the sport, support the building of new courses in whatever way you can.
Last night I was watering the bushes in our back yard and I took that as an opportunity to wash down the patio chairs and the Ching portable basket that I have. The 70+ year old guy that lives behind us was tinkering in his yard and looked up and asked "Is that some kind of disc golf basket?" We've come a long way! Just a few years ago that guy would not have known what disc golf is, what a basket is, nor that it is even called DISC golf!
Quote from: Jon Brakel on August 27, 2010, 12:40:13 PM
Quote from: fathergod on August 27, 2010, 11:06:16 AMHaving grown up in politics and making my own political connections, I can absolutely tell you that the general belief among politicians and the public is that disc golf players are nothing more than weed smokers. They also believe that the sport doesn't contribute anything to the public which is why Adler hasn't replaced their baskets for years.
I think a larger problem is not the image of disc golf but that so many people don't know that it exists. I think identifying the human interest stories in disc golf and getting those stories in the media would be a great way to capture an audience that wouldn't normally hear about disc golf.
That is right Jon. After working a few booths at some fairs to promote the game we noticed several people who had no idea the game even existed. Exposure is really needed for this game!
I love this game as much as anyone here. But I am a realist. If you guys think some miracle is going to happen, to where this sport is as big ( or even a quarter ) as the PGA, you are all sadly mistaken. No matter how much exposure, this game will never be a sport to get rich from.
I would consider this more of a hobby than a sport. Sports you train for, lift, run , diet, excercise. None of those will make you a better golfer(but putting everyday, or practicing drives does). Any Joe Blow, 100 lbs overweight, can be good at this game.
Maybe if the PDGA enforced a dress code for all Tier events, that would make someone pay some attention.
and how much more exposure do you guys think we need?
PDGA has 45,421 members
What is the number of golfers on the pga tour?
Related:
pga tour golf,
golfers,
pga tour
Read more: What is the number of golfers on the pga tour? | Answerbag http://www.answerbag.com/q_view/676464#ixzz0y6kUCMlh
PGA has just over 28,000 members
disc golf has almost twice as many members.
why doesn't the PDGA kick in some of the money we pay in each year for renewals? if half of the members renew next year, that's over 1 million dollars. what does the PDGA need all that money for? Don't they get money from each tournament ran? I'm sure they have to pay their staff, but maybe if they kicked in some of that renewal money at tournys, more people would play.
What real benifits do we get for renewing besides the $10.00 off for being current at each event? We get to see our ratings? most people don't care about those anyway.
PDGA, INNOVA, DISCRAFT, all are multimillion dollar companies. Maybe one of them could kick in $20,000 added for a tourny purse.
Fact check: There are only 14,027 members in the PDGA currently.
I agree with Jon not many people even heard of diskgolf at my work. I ask them to come out and play, they do one time and that's it. They say " yeah I can throw a Frisbee, lets go play" then reality sets in at the course. They throw 100 feet and it flares off to the left. I throw and they are like ok I'm just going to walk with you ok ?. The learning curb is just as high in disk as it is in ball. Most of the time peeps get hurt trying to throw far. They can't figure out you need to grip the disk really hard to keep your arm from ripping out of its socket. I used to love to play ball golf until Tiger Woods came around and all of the sudden everyone had to play golf and the greens fees went thru the roof even for twilight. The stuff about the pot is just a copout just as many peeps playing ball golf smoke and drink, as a madder of fact I see more drunks on the ball course. This game is relatively new, give it a chance. We need courses like Elk Grove for the newbie's. You take a new golfer to Streamwood and I don't think they will be back soon. Man I love this game, I'll do my best to spread the word.
drinking is legal. smoking pot is not. big difference
and this is not relatively new. 34 years old, is not somewhat new! Disc Golf Association was formed in 1976
Quote from: pickax on August 30, 2010, 10:01:53 AM
Fact check: There are only 14,027 members in the PDGA currently.
as I am sure, not all 28,000 are still current in the PGA
Quote from: pdga#7648 on August 30, 2010, 10:45:42 AM
Quote from: pickax on August 30, 2010, 10:01:53 AM
Fact check: There are only 14,027 members in the PDGA currently.
as I am sure, not all 28,000 are still current in the PGA
But then your financial calculations are way off.
Quote from: pdga#7648 on August 30, 2010, 10:45:42 AM
if half of the members renew next year, that's over 1 million dollars.
Comparing the PGA members to the PDGA members would be like comparing the NBA members to the basketball league members at the local PD or YMCA. I think for golf the USGA is the common amateur organization, although I think very few golfers are members as a percentage of all golfers.
I was simply saying that with over 45,000 members, how much more exposure do you think we need? 45,000 people signed up with the PDGA, I'm sure to play events, not to just be part of something.
Hell, I joined in 1994, as # 7648, so in 16 years, almost 40,000 new members have joined. People know about the sport already, just alot don't care about it enough to give money towards it.
we all just need to realize this sport will never be as big as we want it money wise. we just need to continue to play for the love of the game.
Quote from: pdga#7648 on August 30, 2010, 10:44:51 AM
drinking is legal. smoking pot is not. big difference
and this is not relatively new. 34 years old, is not somewhat new! Disc Golf Association was formed in 1976
I'm not a advocate for it but realistically pot smoking is everywhere. Not just disc golf. Doctors, Lawyers, Judges, and some of your local Sheriffs smoke weed nowadays. It's unfortunate that disc golf gets the bad wrap more than other sports. If curling can make the Olympics why not Disc Golf?
Quote from: pdga#7648 on August 30, 2010, 10:44:51 AM
drinking is legal. smoking pot is not. big difference
and this is not relatively new. 34 years old, is not somewhat new! Disc Golf Association was formed in 1976
Maybe not so big a difference in today's world.I used to play ball golf. Drinking is rampant with hackers. Most golf outings are fraternity parties with sticks, balls and carts. They are scary events. There is plenty of pot on the golf course. At the upper levels the players are serious and are stone cold sober. For the most part this is the case with disc golf. Sure, we all know legendary players who seem to excell when drunk or high but this is the exception. Do players indulge after the game, or tournament is over? Sure. Ball golf? Hey, the 19th hole is a part of the lexicon. The difference, our sister game is more established and the 19th hole is held in the course's own cocktail lounge. Disc golf has no such luxury. The parking lot serves as the 19th hole.
indulgence whether drinking, smoking or otherwise, is not the reason why disc golf gets scant media attention. There is plenty of that in plenty of other sports. snowboarding was mentioned earlier in this thread. The game by its nature is not exciting in the same way snowboarding or X-Games type sports or mixed martial arts would be. The game is more sedate. Its a thinking game. The only visual hook is the fact that there are flying circles. As I mentioned before, there is not the same sex appeal as beach volleyball or soccer (just ask any woman what she thinks of soccer player's bodies). Ball golf is not sexy either. However, it has been around for a long time and has long since emerged from the fringe. Lots of people play it.
Disc golf has been steadily growing over the past few years This is the right path. More and more people including Jon's neighbor are aware of it. This will lead to more people wanting to watch adn more demand for the game. It will eventually make it to the airwaves. If webcasts can improve we will be able to show the excitement and thrill of the game to more and more people. It is a young sport. DGA is really a manufacturer. I played disc golf in the 70's and have a Whammo Moonlighter. We were an extreme minority then. We are a lesser one now.
Every sport needs a story and more importantly, a star. The Champ is a star. Barry is a star. However, you cannot compare them to Tiger Woods in terms of media appeal. There is no comparison to Shawn White. Nikko, on the other hand, may have some of that appeal. Its time for him, his hair, and Gateway to seek some local St. Louis area marketing and see if it can grow. Eventaually people will want to see the kid with the dreds who can throw it a mile and hit a basket from far away. I thought that when Feldberg went on the Letterman show it was a step in the right direction. Maybe Avery should go on Survivor. In that light, maybe more of a "badboy"image would help grow the sport. When baseball was a younger sport we loved to hear about the Babe being drunk and full of hot dogs and then slugging home runs. The game grew when he was involved. I am saying that a little tongue in cheek.
Regardless of the growth I agree that disc golf may never be a sport that you can really play without having a day job. I do not foresee many people making a living at it for a long time. At best, pros may be able to aspire to make a living as course pros and compete in a few tournaments, promote events and invest in the game...I foresee The Terry Millers of the world having a better chance to make a living off the sport than the Feldbergs. .
Sr. I'm not saying that disc golf is the only sport where pot smoking is done alot. I am just saying that the disc golf family has been tarnished as dope smokers, hippies. That is why we don't see the BIG MONEY being thrown at this sport. That is the bottom line, no matter who here beleives it. Am I happy about it? No not at all, but my eyes are open, and I see what goes on in between rounds at any event. at least 10 cars have golfers in them, blazing up. If I can see it, I'm sure others do as well.
I know this, but I still play between 12-15 sanctioned tournaments each year, because I love the game and the competition.
I would love to be able to quit my 60 hour a week job, to play disc every weekend and be set financially, but that will never happen, for me, or probably not for any Open player on the NT unless their family already has money.
Quote from: Chainmeister on August 30, 2010, 11:53:42 AM
Quote from: pdga#7648 on August 30, 2010, 10:44:51 AM
drinking is legal. smoking pot is not. big difference
and this is not relatively new. 34 years old, is not somewhat new! Disc Golf Association was formed in 1976
Maybe not so big a difference in today's world.I used to play ball golf. Drinking is rampant with hackers. Most golf outings are fraternity parties with sticks, balls and carts. They are scary events. There is plenty of pot on the golf course. At the upper levels the players are serious and are stone cold sober. For the most part this is the case with disc golf. Sure, we all know legendary players who seem to excell when drunk or high but this is the exception. Do players indulge after the game, or tournament is over? Sure. Ball golf? Hey, the 19th hole is a part of the lexicon. The difference, our sister game is more established and the 19th hole is held in the course's own cocktail lounge. Disc golf has no such luxury. The parking lot serves as the 19th hole.
indulgence whether drinking, smoking or otherwise, is not the reason why disc golf gets scant media attention. There is plenty of that in plenty of other sports. snowboarding was mentioned earlier in this thread. The game by its nature is not exciting in the same way snowboarding or X-Games type sports or mixed martial arts would be. The game is more sedate. Its a thinking game. The only visual hook is the fact that there are flying circles. As I mentioned before, there is not the same sex appeal as beach volleyball or soccer (just ask any woman what she thinks of soccer player's bodies). Ball golf is not sexy either. However, it has been around for a long time and has long since emerged from the fringe. Lots of people play it.
Disc golf has been steadily growing over the past few years This is the right path. More and more people including Jon's neighbor are aware of it. This will lead to more people wanting to watch adn more demand for the game. It will eventually make it to the airwaves. If webcasts can improve we will be able to show the excitement and thrill of the game to more and more people. It is a young sport. DGA is really a manufacturer. I played disc golf in the 70's and have a Whammo Moonlighter. We were an extreme minority then. We are a lesser one now.
Every sport needs a story and more importantly, a star. The Champ is a star. Barry is a star. However, you cannot compare them to Tiger Woods in terms of media appeal. There is no comparison to Shawn White. Nikko, on the other hand, may have some of that appeal. Its time for him, his hair, and Gateway to seek some local St. Louis area marketing and see if it can grow. Eventaually people will want to see the kid with the dreds who can throw it a mile and hit a basket from far away. I thought that when Feldberg went on the Letterman show it was a step in the right direction. Maybe Avery should go on Survivor. In that light, maybe more of a "badboy"image would help grow the sport. When baseball was a younger sport we loved to hear about the Babe being drunk and full of hot dogs and then slugging home runs. The game grew when he was involved. I am saying that a little tongue in cheek.
Regardless of the growth I agree that disc golf may never be a sport that you can really play without having a day job. I do not foresee many people making a living at it for a long time. At best, pros may be able to aspire to make a living as course pros and compete in a few tournaments, promote events and invest in the game...I foresee The Terry Millers of the world having a better chance to make a living off the sport than the Feldbergs. .
You nailed it David.
Yes! Dumping money into a sport makes the sport grow quicker. I don't see how you can even fathom an argument against that. I'll provide a list of sports that all sprang up professionally around a similar time.
Skateboarding
BMX (vert and street)
Mountain Biking
Snowboarding
Motocross (a lil' early in Europe)
Roller blading
Luge
These are just the few i can think of off the top my head. Do you notice something though? I do. All those sports see or have seen regular "air time" and coverage. And you know how they did it? Their own companies took the rick and pumped the money into it. Instead of million-dollar companies they became billion-dollar companies. You cannot generate a viable argument against that. You know luge had its chance and it just didn't generate the interest they hoped for. (i define interest to be when people not only want to watch the sport, they want to go try the sport). in other words luge was too crazy for most people. Mountain biking is considerably bigger in europe than the US. (For some reason people would rather watch cycling over mtn biking <shrug>). But the other held true and marketed and paid for it to be big. You cannot make money without money. That is just how it works in this day and age. This sport has so much marketability its amazing! People of all sorts can easily and cheaply play. Anyone can do it. Thats a marketing wet-dream.
Quote from: smyith on August 30, 2010, 02:41:51 PM
Yes! Dumping money into a sport makes the sport grow quicker. I don't see how you can even fathom an argument against that. I'll provide a list of sports that all sprang up professionally around a similar time.
Skateboarding
BMX (vert and street)
Mountain Biking
Snowboarding
Motocross (a lil' early in Europe)
Roller blading
Luge
These are all sports that will have some amount of shock value. There are cable channels that just show the accidents in sports like those listed above. We like to see bodies flying and people getting hurt. That happens in these sports. It does not happen in disc golf. Luge gets tv coverage only because its an olympic sport. I suspect that disc golf is a more popular sport. If it was not an olympic sport you would never see luge on TV. Mountain biking is very difficult to televise as its hard to set up cameras on many mountain trails to capture the action. It is easier to do so with road racing. Bike racing, which I love, is not a popular tv sport in America.. There is a dedicated core of fans in the US. We get very limited coverage. Perhaps disc golf can aspire to that kind of coverage. In Europe, its extremely popular. Of course, there are spectacular crashes. Disc golf does not have very sexy accidents. Once again, I mention that word. Who is kidding who-- sex sells.
Just throwing money at a sport will get it some coverage. Hoever, if it is not interesting it will not bee long lasting. You say you need money to make money. I say you need a reason to make people want to invest money.
Smyith, I have two questions for you:
1) How can a sport succeed commercially if no one wants to watch it? I'm not saying that it can't but I don't know what the business model is. Almost no one wants to watch disc golf. At every tournament that I am a TD or a volunteer at, I talk to casual players that came out to play. One of the alternatives to playing the course that I offer up is to watch some of the best local pros play the course. Approximately all of these players opt to do something else than to watch someone play disc golf. Occasionally some will stick around and watch the pros throw their drives. They seem impressed with their skill, but they still don't watch any more. I have rarely seen players who are injured come out to watch a tournament even though they have the time. There are more PDGA members in Illinois than there are players that play tournaments. Even those guys don't come out to a tournament or two to watch. I think all of the sports you mentioned had a lot of spectators before they ever had TV. They also have lots of spectators for events that are smaller and not televised. So, if there are no viewers, what will drive the sport commercially?
2) If you had $1,000,000 of seed money to invest in disc golf, what would you do with it?
Quote from: pdga#7648 on August 30, 2010, 11:54:49 AM
Sr. I'm not saying that disc golf is the only sport where pot smoking is done alot. I am just saying that the disc golf family has been tarnished as dope smokers, hippies. That is why we don't see the BIG MONEY being thrown at this sport. That is the bottom line, no matter who here beleives it. Am I happy about it? No not at all, but my eyes are open, and I see what goes on in between rounds at any event. at least 10 cars have golfers in them, blazing up. If I can see it, I'm sure others do as well.
I know this, but I still play between 12-15 sanctioned tournaments each year, because I love the game and the competition.
I would love to be able to quit my 60 hour a week job, to play disc every weekend and be set financially, but that will never happen, for me, or probably not for any Open player on the NT unless their family already has money.
Your belief and constant regurgitation that the "disc golf family has been tarnished as dope smokers, hippies" only helps perpetuate the myth. There are plenty of "squares" out on the courses as well. How is this any different from ball golf? I would not expect to see golfers chugging beers in between swings at the PGA Championship, but I would certainly expect to see it at any number of local courses if I were to watch a casual or league round.
If you hear someone say that only hippies play disc golf, why not take that opportunity and turn it into a quick lesson on why it is simply a myth? At this time, there is no existing PDGA member requirement for you to acknowledge the existence of disc golfer hippies.
Would it be impossible to un-tarnish disc golf and create a new identity based around the world's best players?
Did baseball survive the black sox, steroids, and other unsavory reputations?
IMHO, He who has the most fun STILL wins! :headbang:
Exposure of the sport is the main thing.
I've noticed Adler having a lot more chuckers since the 2009 tournament which was profiled in the local newspapers. Even though they are chuckers its still a good thing to have them on the course. Sure it annoys you to no end but if we could somehow educate those players, perhaps it would help. Also, perhaps taking some money that a tournament takes in could go to placing an ad in the local newspapers. That's where the PDGA fails at. Local exposure of the game for the chuckers or people interested in the game. I don't know how many times I've given out the PDGA website and people ask huh?
Now... I know there's a lot of people who like tie dye discs and multi-colored but I think that hurts the game for chuckers. They don't care to know their disc, just that it fits well in their hands and its a pretty cool color. I've seen chuckers with majorally overstable discs that just make a hard left out of their hand and they get ribbed by their group for "not being able to throw."
I recall the tournaments back in 98 where no matter how well you did, everyone got a free disc which helped me stay playing.
Going back to the topic, I think they are perhaps doing it every other year so they can save money for a bigger tournament that year instead of every year. Only thing I can think of
Quote from: Jon Brakel on August 31, 2010, 07:06:28 AM
Smyith, I have two questions for you:
1) How can a sport succeed commercially if no one wants to watch it? I'm not saying that it can't but I don't know what the business model is. Almost no one wants to watch disc golf. At every tournament that I am a TD or a volunteer at, I talk to casual players that came out to play. One of the alternatives to playing the course that I offer up is to watch some of the best local pros play the course. Approximately all of these players opt to do something else than to watch someone play disc golf. Occasionally some will stick around and watch the pros throw their drives. They seem impressed with their skill, but they still don't watch any more. I have rarely seen players who are injured come out to watch a tournament even though they have the time. There are more PDGA members in Illinois than there are players that play tournaments. Even those guys don't come out to a tournament or two to watch. I think all of the sports you mentioned had a lot of spectators before they ever had TV. They also have lots of spectators for events that are smaller and not televised. So, if there are no viewers, what will drive the sport commercially?
2) If you had $1,000,000 of seed money to invest in disc golf, what would you do with it?
1) Most people I know who don't want to watch it got tainted when they saw the early videos. (the drunken clip shows) Most think that thats what it would be on TV. As far as traveling to watch tournaments, I don't think there is much interest in that because of the type of people who play, either they would rather go play at an open course, be with their families (the majority...i think), or be getting wasted somewhere. alot of the sports i mentioned had their families there to cheer them on. i cant think of anyone who likes to bring their family to watch. all to common, we have several tournament players that need that dead silence, no shadow, or no one in their peripherals. Those people get so upset about the dumbest *beep*, that attitude, which is very prevalent, isn't conducive to audiences. also you got those big massive waits at some tournaments (30sec rule (801.03) needs to start being enforced by all, its outta hand), who wants to stand around for that. at the MXG open we had some ridiculous wait times 2nd round. one of the guys in my group had his family following and watching (awesome spectators by the way, never even noticed them while playing the holes). they got sick of waiting they left. there are so many issues that play into this whole issue of why disc golf isn't in the media. from speed of play to image to money. the problem is that everyone wants to do it one step at a time. sorry but that takes way to long and its easy to lose sight of the original goal. massive change in a short amount of time is much more effective and farther reaching than gradual change.
And i do understand your point but i dont agree on the lack of marketability. im not in marketing and dont know the ins and outs, but if anyone and everyone is capable of playing, they can figure out a way to market it to the mainstream media. Maybe thats what we need instead of money. pay a top-notch marketing firm some money to get it rolling. the PDGA needs to start doing something with our membership dues. it would definitely be nice to know where the money goes, its definitely not towards growing the sport.
2) i've actually thought about this several times. i think i would put together an A-teir invite only tournament. then make the prize money huge, like $50k to the winner of MPO and $30k to FPO and then add some more money to it for everyone else. I would then use the rest to pay a company like comcast sportsnet or the golf channel (or whoever does their media coverage?) to come tape it and put it on the air. Showcase only the best players on a beautiful course and have a crew on every hole or following every group, 18 total no more. i dont think $900k would be enough to pay them though. i would also request that it be aired during a weekday night. not on the weekend!!!!! the people who are going to watch arn't going to be home to watch on the weekend. another thing with the announcers too. no *beep-ing* whispering like in golf either. talk like normal, laugh and cheer, "soccer style" announcing. it should be taped like ball golf but have the personality of the our sport. we are a joyful and fun community, it should be showcased. I love the Clash series but the whispering crap makes me want to turn it off.
Quote from: philvb85 on August 31, 2010, 09:47:39 AM
Quote from: Jon Brakel on August 31, 2010, 07:06:28 AM
2) If you had $1,000,000 of seed money to invest in disc golf, what would you do with it?
I am actually pretty curious how people would answer this question. Personally, my number one goal would be to construct sort of what Lemon Lake has. Several courses in one area that cater to all skill levels. I would supplement that with the addition of a pro shop that would also function as a teaching clinic with (budget permitting) permanent teaching pro. Whatever is left over would be used to run tournaments at this location.
I feel this would not only help in what should be the number one priority (spreading the sport) but also with the intent of creating more tournaments at more attractive venues to appease current players.
the number one priority shouldnt be spreading the sport, it should be popularizing the sport. wording my friend, wording. it will spread with popularity faster than it will with our own effort.
also, building complex is great for playing but not for advancement. look at highbridge hills, that place is amazing!!!! its turning out to be a flop. primarily cause its in the middle of nowhere tho. BRP is in a great spot but it to hasnt done anything for popularizing the sport. its popular within the community but thats it.
1) I enjoy watching disc golf. At the last IOS my brother and I watched people tee off and play hole 1 all day at Eagle Ridge. We brought cribbage but never got it out. I think it is enjoyable to watch everyone play one hole and see how different people play it. But it isn't fun like watching snow boarding is fun. No one's doing a triple up the wazzoo flip in disc golf! I think if people aren't going to watch a sport live then they aren't very likely to watch it on TV either.
2) One reason that I asked what you would do with a $1,000,000 in seed money is because most dream goals can be worked on for less. The first disc golf TV venture produced a television show at a different tournament each week. It was aired on a cable chanel that I didn't get but you could also buy the episodes on disc. I had a friend tape the show for me every week and I bought the DVDs. They went out of business after about two years after spending their initial investment money. The show was great. Professionally done in every way. It got practically zero for ratings and not very many people bought the discs either.
I don't think the average viewer is going to care if first place is getting paid $5000 or $50000. They just want to watch "something good" on TV. They want to watch something compelling.
So, my next question for Smyith is:
3) Where should the money come from that should be "thrown at the sport"?
I can answer that.
where do our renewal membership fees go? not towards growing the sport for sure. PDGA, INNOVA, DISCRAFT, have plenty of money they could throw out to tournys. Doesn't the PDGA get money from you when you run a tournament Jon? How much of our money do they need before they start giving some of it back to those that are current? Little doggie tags when we renew cost what $5.00. cmon the bumper stickers might cost them $1.00
I'm no longer PDGA current but if you look at their magazines, they have a breakdown of their expenses and funds available.
http://www.pdga.com/files/documents/09-10_PDGA_Financial_Summary_Public.pdf (http://www.pdga.com/files/documents/09-10_PDGA_Financial_Summary_Public.pdf)
$1.36 million income in 2009.
This includes $695K from memberships and $439K from tournament fees. Also took in $89K from sponsors/advertising, $84K from merchandise, and $54K from the International Disc Golf Center.
Total expenses were $1.1 million in 2009.
This includes $334K for 5 full-time office staff, 5 consultants, accountants, employer taxes, health insurance, workmen's comp, and web consultant.
$153K was spent fulfilling your membership and event packages
$171K went to the magazine and membership gifts
$131K went to Majors and NT sponsorships and the Marshal's Program
$71K on marketing
$61K was spent on the IDGC. $44K on office equipment. $50K on IT and $31K on merchandise, etc...
Quote from: pdga#7648 on August 31, 2010, 12:15:00 PM
I can answer that.
where do our renewal membership fees go? not towards growing the sport for sure. PDGA, INNOVA, DISCRAFT, have plenty of money they could throw out to tournys. Doesn't the PDGA get money from you when you run a tournament Jon? How much of our money do they need before they start giving some of it back to those that are current? Little doggie tags when we renew cost what $5.00. cmon the bumper stickers might cost them $1.00
The PDGA is not sitting on a nest egg of millions of dollars. The PDGA publishes where all the money goes every year. If you don't agree on how the PDGA is spending your money then you need to get organized and help make some changes.
Discraft and Innova are private companies so I know that you don't know how much money either company has to sponsor tournaments. How much money are those companies already putting back into the sport? How much do you think is the right amount?
I can tell you that Discraft and Innova are not pulling in millions of dollars in profit. If there were millions of dollars to be had then some sporting goods companies would have expanded into the disc golf market.
Quote from: Dan Michler on August 31, 2010, 12:48:29 PM
http://www.pdga.com/files/documents/09-10_PDGA_Financial_Summary_Public.pdf (http://www.pdga.com/files/documents/09-10_PDGA_Financial_Summary_Public.pdf)
$1.36 million income in 2009.
This includes $695K from memberships and $439K from tournament fees. Also took in $89K from sponsors/advertising, $84K from merchandise, and $54K from the International Disc Golf Center.
Total expenses were $1.1 million in 2009.
This includes $334K for 5 full-time office staff, 5 consultants, accountants, employer taxes, health insurance, workmen's comp, and web consultant.
$153K was spent fulfilling your membership and event packages
$171K went to the magazine and membership gifts
$131K went to Majors and NT sponsorships and the Marshal's Program
$71K on marketing
$61K was spent on the IDGC. $44K on office equipment. $50K on IT and $31K on merchandise, etc...
okay, so they made $260,000 in 2009. Now add up all the profits for 15 other years, and you come up with ALOT of money, correct?
Quote from: fathergod on August 31, 2010, 12:22:08 PM
I'm no longer PDGA current but if you look at their magazines, they have a breakdown of their expenses and funds available.
where is that? ive never noticed that in that horrible excuse for a magazine.
Quote from: pdga#7648 on August 31, 2010, 01:14:12 PM
Quote from: Dan Michler on August 31, 2010, 12:48:29 PM
http://www.pdga.com/files/documents/09-10_PDGA_Financial_Summary_Public.pdf (http://www.pdga.com/files/documents/09-10_PDGA_Financial_Summary_Public.pdf)
$1.36 million income in 2009.
This includes $695K from memberships and $439K from tournament fees. Also took in $89K from sponsors/advertising, $84K from merchandise, and $54K from the International Disc Golf Center.
Total expenses were $1.1 million in 2009.
This includes $334K for 5 full-time office staff, 5 consultants, accountants, employer taxes, health insurance, workmen's comp, and web consultant.
$153K was spent fulfilling your membership and event packages
$171K went to the magazine and membership gifts
$131K went to Majors and NT sponsorships and the Marshal's Program
$71K on marketing
$61K was spent on the IDGC. $44K on office equipment. $50K on IT and $31K on merchandise, etc...
okay, so they made $260,000 in 2009. Now add up all the profits for 15 other years, and you come up with ALOT of money, correct?
I don't believe they have had a surplus of income for the last 15 years.
OK, this is my last post on this subject for the next two years...
Obviously I think that you can't just "throw money" at the sport to make it suddenly become popular and no one here is going to convince me otherwise.
Here is your challenge:
Prove me wrong!
Jon, I'll take the bait. If there was any excess money I would improve the quality and quantity of webcasts. This is a lower cost option and creates footage that conceivably could be sent to broadcast or cable for highlights. Maybe broadcast of events is a long way off. However, if there is a playoff at USDGC or some other event it might be worth 15 seconds of highlights if there is some cool video to go with it.
If we are going to urge PDGA to take leadership this may be the place. I think they should chose a major event at a scenic location and broadcast the lead card(s) of the last couple rounds. There should be a couple of cameras and the broadcast team (of volunteers) should have done some advance work and have stats etc and not the hokey interviews and "banter" we have seen. Frankly, Terry has been one of the better talking heads. I could do without pretty much all of the others. If PDGA had an excess of over $250000 last year I do not see that as a sign of huge windfalls. However, its enough money to use some to take a crack at a high quality webcast. Webcasting can serve as the bridge to see if it ever catches an audience. There should be no fee. We are not looking for the webcast to make money or even break even. We are looking for it to demonstate an audience. We don't want to put up any barriers to getting larger numbers of viewers. If PDGA can show it is gaining a foothold of viiwers it may be able to get some ads on its webcasts to help defray costs. If it grows from there... who knows? If it fails, they tried and we will have to accept the fringe status of the sport.
I had wondered if IOS should try to webcast its A-tier. If I was a teenager and could start all over I would want to grow up to be a baseball play by play announcer. Fantasy aside, its more realistic to have an organization like PDGA take a crack at it. Most disc golfers are pretty nerdy and most would be comfortable with a webcast.
To Smyith, yes the balance sheet is in the magazine every year. Also, I just posted a link to the pdf file located at pdga.com. The information is public. They list their net worth as $338K, so they have not been accumulating $250K a year for the last 10 years according to their accounting information.
I think Barish makes a good suggestion. Funding a higher quality live webcast for Worlds or USDGC would be interesting. Nothing against those who have put forth the effort to make live webcasts in past events, but the footage has been difficult to follow and ultimately, not exciting to watch. If we could get live footage of the quality we see on the Clash, Vibram Open, or USDGC DVD's, I think the actual excitment of the action might carry over to the viewer.
I would have loved to have seen high quality footage of Nikko throwing OB and missing a 15 footer on the final hole of last week's Skylands NT event, to throw away a 1 stroke lead and miss a sudden death playoff with Feldberg and Orum. Or how about watching the 2003 legendary Schultz/Climo USDGC sudden death playoff live? It was awesome to watch on the DVD, but I already knew the outcome before I popped it in. Sports is meant to be watched live.
I have no clue how much a quality live webcast would cost. Its probably a lot. Maybe more than can be reasonably afforded. But if it can be done for $250K, I think it would be worthwhile. Some of the other expenditures are obvoiusly just as unnecessary and could be cut if needed. I would like to see if a significant audience for this type of webcast could develop.
Gonna sound dumb but what about having a channel just for Disc Golf. I'd actually enjoy watching videos like the stuff Discraft does online
@ Jon
Who's talking about throwing money at it? They can intelligently "invest" more into the sport to send it down a different direction then the current one.
*deleted response* - i chose to send a personal message instead. I'm disappointed in his view of the people in this forum and the words he has chosen to express. they show a lack of respect.
@ fathergod
Whos gonna pay for that to happen? that is a ridiculous amount of money that only the biggest sports can afford.
@ Chainmeister
Interesting i never thought of the webcasts. I agree every attempt has been relatively weak and hacked together. i gotta admit though i do like billy crump as an announcer. i just wish that he would quit the whisper stuff and talk normal. Announcing should be how people are on the course. laughing and joking around, telling stories, all that good stuff.
Here is the corporate information for both Discraft and Innova
Discraft Inc Business Information
Location Type Single Location
Annual Sales (Estimated) $20 to 50 million
Employees (Estimated) 20 to 49
D&B: 25
SIC Code 509111, Sporting Goods-Wholesale
NAICS Code 423910, Sporting Goods Merchant Whls
Products, Services and Brands Information not found
State of Incorporation Michigan
Years in Business 23
Innova Champion Discs inc.
Location Type Single Location
Annual Sales (Estimated) $2.5 to 5 million
Employees (Estimated) 10 to 19
D&B: 25
SIC Code 394923, Sporting & Athletic Goods Nec (Mfrs)
NAICS Code 339920, Sporting & Athletic Goods Manufacturing
Products, Services and Brands Information not found
State of Incorporation Information not found
Years in Business 27
lmao.
to some of your likings, no need for me to say anymore on this topic
no way does innova make less sales than discraft. those numbers are bunk
Innova may have the larger market share for disc golf, but Discraft has a larger share in other disc sports. Keep in mind that those numbers are just estimates because they are both privately held.
Actually I can see that being true. If you notice Innova has fewer employees and they also have a smaller factory in size compared to Discraft. Discraft also has a bigger internet presence.
Maybe its just me but I feel like Innova and Lat64 are like fine wine. In both companies I haven't seen a problem with their molds while Discraft has numerous molds that are inconsistent with flight.
Quote from: Jon Brakel on August 31, 2010, 01:50:48 PM
OK, this is my last post on this subject for the next two years...
Obviously I think that you can't just "throw money" at the sport to make it suddenly become popular and no one here is going to convince me otherwise.
Here is your challenge:
Prove me wrong!
At least one person didn't understand what I meant by saying "Prove me wrong!" so I thought I would clarify before moving on. This is what I sent him in a PM, I just cut and pasted that here.
I have a feeling that you might have taken my challenge of "prove me wrong" the wrong way. I don't mean on this forum right now. What I mean is that for well over 10 years now I have put in hundreds of hours of volunteer work every year into trying to make the sport of disc golf better. I have been doing the things that I think will lead to the sport growing. My statement was to simply challenge you and anyone else that think there is a better way, to be the change that you want to happen. If you change the sport for the better, you will prove me wrong. And I'll be glad to be wrong!
Quote from: smyith on August 31, 2010, 07:32:29 PM
@ Jon
Who's talking about throwing money at it? They can intelligently "invest" more into the sport to send it down a different direction then the current one.
And I had to respond to this because I started using the phrase throwing money at it after you used it in the post quoted below. Actually you said it twice in that post.
Quote from: smyith on August 26, 2010, 01:07:58 PM
...Why i say they need to "throw" money at the sport, ...
Ball golf wasn't anything until someone started throwing money at it. And as soon as that happened it blew up. All its gonna take to make disc golf a multi-million dollar industry is to clean up its image...and to make it worth ($) playing the sport...
Sorry for lying about my previous post being my last post on this subject for a while. I thought I should clear up a couple of things though. Now I *think* I'm done! ;D
Quote from: fathergod on August 31, 2010, 07:39:55 PM
Here is the corporate information for both Discraft and Innova
Discraft Inc Business Information
Location Type Single Location
Annual Sales (Estimated) $20 to 50 million
Employees (Estimated) 20 to 49
D&B: 25
SIC Code 509111, Sporting Goods-Wholesale
NAICS Code 423910, Sporting Goods Merchant Whls
Products, Services and Brands Information not found
State of Incorporation Michigan
Years in Business 23
Innova Champion Discs inc.
Location Type Single Location
Annual Sales (Estimated) $2.5 to 5 million
Employees (Estimated) 10 to 19
D&B: 25
SIC Code 394923, Sporting & Athletic Goods Nec (Mfrs)
NAICS Code 339920, Sporting & Athletic Goods Manufacturing
Products, Services and Brands Information not found
State of Incorporation Information not found
Years in Business 27
My info shows Discraft with annual sales of $32.8mm and 49 employees and Innova with annual sales of $4.1mm and 14 employees. It's likely and possible Innova operates under various subsidiaries that recognize revenue which accounts for the apparent difference in revenue.
@jon
you obviously didnt READ my pm to you. i could care less about proving you wrong. you trivialized an argument because you disagree with it. thats completely disrespectful.
im glad you throw tournaments and have helped grow the sport, but that only does so much before its run its course.
@pickax
i totally forgot about their other markets.
@ fathergod
how many people do you know that throw innova and how many throw disccraft. id say for me personally (including all the people ive met in tournaments) id say its about 80-90% innova. then add in all the companies innova makes discs for and its gotta be a money machine. and personally, i find that if you know how to pick your discs properly that every company is consistent. thats why i am so glad we have a local disc shop. also, from my experience discraft is far more consistent than innova. you can buy a buzzz today and 5years from now get one that flies the same. my rocs from various years are extremely inconsistent (all have similar domes and weights). 2006-2007 they did something to the Rocs and now they suck. ive got 20 some rocs sitting here that i dont even throw now cause i cant go replace my KC Pro with one i would want to throw.
Quote from: smyith on September 01, 2010, 02:50:10 PM
@jon
you obviously didnt READ my pm to you. i could care less about proving you wrong. you trivialized an argument because you disagree with it. thats completely disrespectful.
im glad you throw tournaments and have helped grow the sport, but that only does so much before its run its course.
@pickax
i totally forgot about their other markets.
@ fathergod
how many people do you know that throw innova and how many throw disccraft. id say for me personally (including all the people ive met in tournaments) id say its about 80-90% innova. then add in all the companies innova makes discs for and its gotta be a money machine. and personally, i find that if you know how to pick your discs properly that every company is consistent. thats why i am so glad we have a local disc shop. also, from my experience discraft is far more consistent than innova. you can buy a buzzz today and 5years from now get one that flies the same. my rocs from various years are extremely inconsistent (all have similar domes and weights). 2006-2007 they did something to the Rocs and now they suck. ive got 20 some rocs sitting here that i dont even throw now cause i cant go replace my KC Pro with one i would want to throw.
I completely disagree with Discraft being more consistent. Ever tried throwing a flash? Each mold will either be super overstable, stable, or understable. Ask any of the Discraft pros besides Mark Ellis why they won't use it in tournaments and they will say its unreliable. The spectra is another disc with problems, mainly its supercolor print that makes the dome really slippery. Yeah, the buzz is a sweet disc but I'd put that disc up against a San Marino any day.
Quote from: fathergod on September 01, 2010, 03:33:05 PM
I completely disagree with Discraft being more consistent. Ever tried throwing a flash? Each mold will either be super overstable, stable, or understable. Ask any of the Discraft pros besides Mark Ellis why they won't use it in tournaments and they will say its unreliable. The spectra is another disc with problems, mainly its supercolor print that makes the dome really slippery. Yeah, the buzz is a sweet disc but I'd put that disc up against a San Marino any day.
so your basing your statement on 2 discs??? im not sure about the flash but i know the spectra isn't popular at all. i can name numerous disc by a few manufacturers that are inconsistent. but at least we can all agree that gateway is the most inconsistent company out there
Wow, I need to read some of these threads more often - this was a fantastic read! The last time I had viewed the forum it was back on page 1, now on page 4 :). I know no one has posted here in over a month, but I have some intriguing comments that I'd like to add to the puzzle.
Disc golf is going to have a difficult time breaking off its stereotypes. Too many people unfortunately use illegal substances, and unfortunately disc golf has been branded as the "hippie drug sport." A lot of people live up to that stereotype. How can you make it stop? You can't entirely, but the beginning would be to make it cost more to play disc golf. That would start trimming away those that can't afford both the drugs and the disc golf - and since drugs typically are the stronger addiction - they go that route. There will still be those that have money (or their parents do) so they could pay the greens fees and still get their drugs.
However, right now it's going to be a LONG time before pay to play disc golf ever becomes a reality. Why not? Because there are so many free places to play! Besides that, you'd have to make some VERY awesome courses in order to get people to hand over the cash to get going.
So how else can you draw someone to your pay to play course? Unfortunately, that answer is alcohol. I'd be very curious to see how much money comes in to a golf course that is greens fees and compare that to alcohol and food sales within the clubhouse. It's guys that go out for some booze and while they are at it play 9 or 18 because it's relaxing (until you care about staying on the fairway and making your putt). The advantage that ball golf courses have is that they ALL cost to play. But you go, you hang out with your buddies, you get a round in, hang out some more, go home. Because people are paying to play, the owners actually have some money to improve the course. Disc golfers rely on park district to spend money and hope that they don't screw up the design with limited power to change the positions of where stuff goes.
Until you start seeing free courses going away in favor of pay to play and getting people actually out there, you won't start seeing other potential owners/investors want to start installing their own courses because there's no money to be made. Once they start to see a potential for more money, then they might change their mind.
Why do people go to golf tournaments? Sure you like to watch them play, but you are watching them make a LOT of cash. Plus it's the top pros you are watching. How many people go watch just an AM event? I bet the numbers are far less. I bet a lot of people that watch the pro's are thinking "I could do that" or "I wish I could do that" or "I want to teach my kid to like this and learn how to do this so that they could make the big bucks." Why go to a disc golf tournament as a spectator when you can't make the big bucks?
So because of all of this, right now disc golf is going to be nothing but a casual, outdoor sport. It's not easy enough to transport a course like you can transport a set of corn hole and set up bags tournaments. Those things are easy to set up at a local bar. i was at yorkville hometown days and they had about 30 sets of boards up one day for a bags tournament. Just about everybody was drinking booze along with it. ca-ching, ca-ching.
Until you get that clubhouse set up with another reason to come out there, you'd never get far with a pay to play. You could make it an AWESOME course, and sure you'd get the hard core dgers out there. But there aren't enough hard core players in order to make it a financial success. You need those hackers/chuckers out there for yucks and a good time.
Anybody remember discgolftv.com? They were a webcast company that was trying to cover tournaments and had a shot of the day etc etc etc. It was Timmy Gill's business - don't see it anymore, do you?
Scott,
You certainly added some intriguing comments. I agree with most of what you are saying. However, I'm not sure that disc golf is much different than ball golf except for the equipment we use. Sure, ball golf has been around much longer, but I have played both and the social aspect including beverages consumed during play seems to be the same either way. It appears to be quite obvious that the owners/operators of ball golf courses have their market dialed in as you stated by providing the clubhouse & alcohol. Maybe disc golf just needs a little more time to evolve?
Personally, I would love to have a local pay to play. After playing 4 P2P disc golf courses in California last year, I now understand the difference between our typical park district courses and a real Disc Golf course. I can't wait to see Highbridge, Flip City and the others.
Last year I was playing ball golf 3 to 5 times a week. The people I play with never drink. The repeat players don't drink while playing they want to play good. The booze does not pay for ball golf it brings the golfers in. Five hours of riding in a cart without the wife with beer sounds good 2 to 3 times a year. These people help pay for the courses but we don't need them.
i really don't think making disc golf more expensive will help at all. that is one of the biggest draws of the sport, it essentially costs $8 to get started. thats awesome. now if you make that cost 20-30 you kill the market. i got started in high school. i didn't have much money at all back then. if it had cost me $20 to get started i can almost guarantee you that id still be standing in the street playing catch with an ultimate frisbee.
the drug factor at tournaments is an easy fix. it is against the rules to have them at tournaments and is an automatic DQ. so, people playing need to call them out and have them DQ'd from the tournament, no police involvement! that really sux and its lame but if you want to clean up the image thats a start.
i would love to see more P2P around here, when i lived in the Twin Cities we had a bunch of them to play. but too be completely honest, you still saw all the same activities you do at a non P2P except no course destruction. thats really the only benefit ive noticed. back when i played ball golf i drank heavily when i played, so did most of the people i played with (some of them were very good players). substance abuse is rampid in all sports and activities, you'll never get rid of it. all you can do is what the other professional sports do, enforce the rules on the competing players. Even the million dollar pros use drugs, they just dont do it during competition. why disc golf gets the short end of the stick is because our professional organization does nothing to shun the activity. once that starts to happen the image will improve.
they are designing a pay 2 play course at wildlife prairie park close to Peoria. I will not pay money to play when McNaughton is a better course and its free. Pay 2 play courses will not get more into this sport!!
I have mixed feelings on P2P disc golf. I think Disc Golf is an intriguing option to ball golf because it takes way less time to play and costs way less to play. I think premium courses may succeed at P2P. But, where great courses already exist (Peoria) this will not work. It certainly might work in the Chicago area as there are very few courses and there are fewer, if any, premium courses. Ball golf has been losing players during the recession. Its just too expensive. Disc golf probably does better in a recession. How may players do you know who will tell you their rating went up when they were unemployed? I like Scott's mention of the clubhouse as a big draw in ball golf. I think a bar adjacent to or on a course would probably do very well. Remember, there are serious ball golfers, but the bulk of the players are hacking up courses at golf outings and are likely paying more attention to the lass in the beer cart than the position of their ball. I think an argument can be made that rank and file disc golfers are more serious than ball golfers. Bowling may be a good example. Bowling leagues are excuses to have cocktails while throwing a ball. We've all been to disc golf leagues. The difference is we wear better shoes I would love to see a bar and grill where I could get a sandwhich and a beer after a round sitting on the veranda watching other players on Hole 18.
Quote from: Chainmeister on October 13, 2010, 09:15:23 AM
I have mixed feelings on P2P disc golf. I think Disc Golf is an intriguing option to ball golf because it takes way less time to play and costs way less to play. I think premium courses may succeed at P2P. But, where great courses already exist (Peoria) this will not work. It certainly might work in the Chicago area as there are very few courses and there are fewer, if any, premium courses. Ball golf has been losing players during the recession. Its just too expensive. Disc golf probably does better in a recession. How may players do you know who will tell you their rating went up when they were unemployed? I like Scott's mention of the clubhouse as a big draw in ball golf. I think a bar adjacent to or on a course would probably do very well. Remember, there are serious ball golfers, but the bulk of the players are hacking up courses at golf outings and are likely paying more attention to the lass in the beer cart than the position of their ball. I think an argument can be made that rank and file disc golfers are more serious than ball golfers. Bowling may be a good example. Bowling leagues are excuses to have cocktails while throwing a ball. We've all been to disc golf leagues. The difference is we wear better shoes I would love to see a bar and grill where I could get a sandwhich and a beer after a round sitting on the veranda watching other players on Hole 18.
Can't agree more with you David but quit making me thirsty!
;D
Doug- have you ever played a pay to play course?
Would now be a good time to mention that I'm working on installing a DG course on a golf course in Ottawa, IL?
http://www.pinehillsgc.com/
yes Dana, in Columbus Ohio in 1993. why does that matter?
I have a handful of challenging courses, McNaughton, Morton, ICC, Washington, Bradley. Why would I want to drive all the way out there, then pay to play when I have McNaughton 5 minutes from my house? Just doesn't make any logical sense. Now if the GPO is out there as an A-Tier, then sure I will pay to play, but for a casual round, no way am I paying money.( unless they take PFC Fun Bucks)
My luck, I would like it, then have to worry about them changing that course all around like they did McNaughton, and are in the process of doing to Morton.
Thay have plenty of room at McNaughton to set up another 18 holes out past the circle drive like they used to do for the Peoria Open in the late 90's. we played a 36 hole tournament there in like 95, 96, 97 and 98.
for P2P to work they have to offer something that free courses don't. Whether it be better facilities, clubhouse, or more challenging course...etc.
P2P is a tricky thing. Take Madison for example. You have 2 fantastic courses and 1 good course. One of the fantastic courses is a P2P and it still brings in tons of money. And not just from the "serious" golfers, i've seen alot of chuckers there. in the twin cities there are 4 (i think maybe 5) P2P and several stellar courses. All of the P2P courses are always bust with people as well as the non P2P. I think that for a successful P2P it is a must to have the population to draw from and make a truly quality course. Chicago Forest Preserve has the land to make several fantastic P2P courses. And i would think they would do well, if priced appropriately.
Ultimately though i don't think P2P is the way to growing the sport. thats not the reason people are drawn to disc golf.
Quote from: smyith on October 13, 2010, 07:09:49 AM
i really don't think making disc golf more expensive will help at all. that is one of the biggest draws of the sport, it essentially costs $8 to get started. thats awesome. now if you make that cost 20-30 you kill the market. i got started in high school. i didn't have much money at all back then. if it had cost me $20 to get started i can almost guarantee you that id still be standing in the street playing catch with an ultimate frisbee.
the drug factor at tournaments is an easy fix. it is against the rules to have them at tournaments and is an automatic DQ. so, people playing need to call them out and have them DQ'd from the tournament, no police involvement! that really sux and its lame but if you want to clean up the image thats a start.
i would love to see more P2P around here, when i lived in the Twin Cities we had a bunch of them to play. but too be completely honest, you still saw all the same activities you do at a non P2P except no course destruction. thats really the only benefit ive noticed. back when i played ball golf i drank heavily when i played, so did most of the people i played with (some of them were very good players). substance abuse is rampid in all sports and activities, you'll never get rid of it. all you can do is what the other professional sports do, enforce the rules on the competing players. Even the million dollar pros use drugs, they just dont do it during competition. why disc golf gets the short end of the stick is because our professional organization does nothing to shun the activity. once that starts to happen the image will improve.
I completely understand that people get into it because it is cheap. However, it's never going to become a big time competitive professional sport unless people can make money while providing the sport. A sponsor pays in money because they expect to get business back from it. If they don't see the potential to make money, why spend money on it? A park district has no incentive to put in a 5-star championship caliber course when a lame, 9-hole 1800 footer gets the job done for a "recreational activity". It leaves the people that do care about disc golf frustrated, but we don't have the money to shell out to make it better.
I recently introduced a bunch of guys to the sport on a huge back yard. I set up 4 pretty open temp holes - all about 220 - 300 ft. I had one guy step up to play because he knew I was in business with it and wanted to learn more about it. He absolutely fell in love with it, but thought at first he was going to hate it. He was throwing 200+ backhand and forehand right from the start with a Champ Leopard that I gave him to use. He told me that he thought it was just throwing a regular Frisbee, where was the fun in that? But once he realized there were drivers, mid's, putters, and they were a LOT heavier, he wanted to play more. He wound up playing the set of 4 holes 3 times with me before getting dark. Nobody else played more than once or twice around.
I bring that story up to mention another key factor that people have already stated, but it's worth stating again: EDUCATION. Spreading the GOOD word about the sport, not the stereotypes. Those cheap-o Frisbees that get handed out with corporate logos on them will always drive me nuts because that's always what I think about first when you say a Frisbee. You can never throw them far and break like they are nothing. I was out at 2 festivals this year, and I'm setting up at another one a week from this Saturday. The one in Oswego had decent recognition of the sport - probably about 30-40% of the people I talked to were aware of the sport. At the Taste of Lombard I had probably about 65% recognition - it helped that I was right on the course though! Take it to a town where disc golf does not exist and it's a LOT tougher. I have had a LOT of youth approach me and tell me "oh yeah, we did this in school." That's an excellent thing. They just don't realize where all of the courses are out there, and in some cases practically right in their back yard!
oh what I wish I could do with money won from a lottery... :) buy some land, set up some NICE courses, and then if the lottery winnings was big enough, drop enough in the pool to make sure 1st place at a huge NT tournament on my courses took home a million bucks. That might get some people out :)
Since were all chiming in on the P2P issue ill tag along
I am pro P2P all day. It is part of growing the sport. (i disagree Adam).
It is absolutely pushing the sport by creating more revenue for the course that you are playing to play. How many times have you played lippold and said to your self. Man this hole could be made better or i wish they would put in concrete tees. or get rid of the pea gravel or how bout a bench of every hole or a garbage can bathrooms?????
By having a pay to play course you have a bit of revenue towards course improvements. Otherwise its left to the clubs responsibility to provide the funds for any improvements...
At public parks where disc golf is there they DO NOT create any revenue for the community even though they get lots of attention from the people that live in the town it still does not become any sort of priority for the white collar people in charge of how spending occurs.
This brings me to private courses which are pay to play by some respect weather its just a donation or an actual pro shop collecting greens fees to walk on the course. Now if you haven't played blue ribbon pines then i strongly suggest you do so. It was the most beautifully manicured course i have ever seen.
It was said earlier about the amount of people who play Golf and care about how they play to the guys just there for an outing only caring to have a few drinks and have fun....
This is no different from disc golf... The 45000 plus pdga members is just a small percent of the people who play.. Most of the people who play are there cause they can get out n have a few beers burn one and throw a disc... Most who don't really care. As a functioning member of the disc golf industry i can say for every one single pdga member i have walk in my shop and buy some thing each week i have 100 chuckers.
In order to grow the sport more P2P courses need to open, More pro shops need to pop up... Ones that cater to the casual player not just the tournament player. We all need to make it "COOL" wear your disc golf clothes every where you go. Play with casuals, and be a ambassador of the sport at all times....
And always ALWAYS hit an ace in front of chuckers it gets them all sorts of riled up!!!!!! hahaha
Cant wait to see all of you guys at the Hunt for Halloween at lippold OCT 24 1 day b teir
I still disagree. P2P will evolve the game not make it grow. Right now awareness/education, and marketing will grow the sport at the rate we all want. the P2P courses will take it to the next level after that. If the awareness is greatly increased then more people will get out there and try. i think one of the best examples is right in our own area. the high schools having disc golf clubs is huge!!! but in my little exposure to who's there, alot of the avid chuckers aren't playing in the club. i'd like to see more involvement from those chuckers who aren't there. They already have the interest. I would ultimate like to see these HS disc golf clubs to become more of a disc golf team, and travel with the team and play other schools. The club i work with recently got approved use of buses through the school. With the relatively small interest (but growing) we have already to get that just shows that the schools are willing to help us out. If we get them started in high school, learning proper etiquette and technique it will bring a more "positive" marketing demographic to several more companies.
Like in all aspects of life, education is the means to change. Without it we are doomed to repeat the same cycle we have exsisted on for the last several thousand years. Someones gotta get someone with money off the ball golf course and onto the disc golf course.
The high school where I live has a team and a club. I joined the website, told them how long I have been playing, and offered to play with them or put on a demonstration for the club, about a month a a half ago, still no response. I don't know if the club split up or what, but I thought 1 person might send me a message with interest?
I just don't understand how people think golfers would rather pay money to play, than play for free. I have at least 12 course within 30 minutes of my house that are free. The one they are designing is 35 minutes away, and I have to pay to play. If I have been playing for free for 18 years(excluding tournaments and leagues) why now would I want to spend money to play? No matter how nice the course is, it probably wont be harder than McNaughtons long tees! Period!
If you Pros want to spend the money you win to play or practice a casual round, feel free. I just simply stated I wouldn't do it, as it makes absolutely no sense.
P2P: I had an omlette at a Coney Island in Waterford and it cost $6. I had an omlette at Forte in Birmingham and it cost $12. What you get for your other $6 are the other people you are eating the omlette with.
Maybe half of the courses around here are P2P but the P2P fee is pretty nominal -- a $25 annual pass or a $2 to $4 daily fee at most places. The P2P fee keeps some people off the course, but mostly it keeps off the right people.
Actually, though, every course is P2P. It is just a question of who is paying and who is playing. Your neighbor is paying for your disc golf experience at the "free" public course, and since he does not give a rat's ass about disc golf, that explains why you still have crushed limestone tees ten years after the course was installed, and why you are sharing space with a jogging path, tot lot and practice soccer field.
Growing the sport I. A guy tried to grow professional croquet in England by following the PDGA model: charge a steep cash entry fee and pay it back to the players. He charged enough to get a lot of players interested. Unfortunately, England law frowns on that sort of thing and he had a big enough pool to attract the attention of the police. There are states that have laws similar to England's. Consult your attorney before you "grow the sport."
Growing the sport II. The only sport I know that intentionally grew itself was soccer. The US Soccer Federation tried top down attempts several times, finding investors to throw money at professional soccer. Finally they gave up on that and decided to take a ten-year hiatus from supporting professional soccer. Instead they threw all their energy into schools and leagues for children. They grew a huge player base for soccer. It is still boring to watch.
Growing the sport III. In 2001, I think, I was sitting near hole 1 at Hudson Mills discussing this topic with Jim Kenner, owner of Discraft, and couple of other players. Jim said, "We don't have to do anything to grow the sport. It is fun to play and inexpensive. Growth is inevitable."
Growing the sport IV: I think this is mostly about some people wanting to validate what they do by growing it into the mainstream. What we do is valid regardless of the number of people who join us. What we do is valid regardless of whether stoners and alcoholics enjoy doing it too. I don't think any of you have identified an actual problem that you have that would be solved by making disc golf larger. What is your problem that you think would be solved by growing the sport?
Growing the sport V: Did you watch the live coverage of USDGC on the last day? I actually watch pro disc golf at courses when I cannot play, but I was too busy playing disc golf to watch USDGC live.
Errors and Omissions. Innova manufactures and sells about three times as many golf discs as Discraft, according to insiders at Innova and Discraft. Both manufacture discs for other labels. Discraft manufactures most DGA discs. Innova manufactures all Millenium discs. Innova has other companies they manufacture for. Innova and Carolina Flying Discs (Innova East) are separately incorporated which might make Innova look smaller than it is. Discraft owns most of the serious Ultimate business with Whamo coming in second.
The PGA Tour has 125 players and 25 alternates. That larger number, 28,000 or whatever was quoted, is members, not Tour players. Club pros are almost always members, as are teaching pros who are not employed by a club. A sport as big as golf can only support about 125 top tier professional touring pros.
The USGA only has about one million active members, as far as I can tell from my internet research. So it takes about one million serious players and a larger number of casual players to support 125 touring pros and 25 alternates. If you can get them to watch on TV!
Doug, when you live in a smaller town with lots of land of course it will be tough to argue pay to play courses. I was up in Minneapolis earlier this summer where the disc golf scene is VERY active, and they have a huge variety of 18 hole courses both pay to play and free. The free courses are all old, short, and run down. The pay to play courses are well maintained and have beautiful tees, greens, fairways, etc. You can really tell they had money to put into the courses. Every one of them was packed when I played, even the pay to play courses. I think if you have a great course in an active community then pay to play will not turn people away. Most of the people paying to play disc golf these days are not the casual beginners that don't know the rules and are inconsiderate to others. I would pay money just to avoid courses with rude players.
Check out Bryant Lake park in Minneapolis just to have an idea of what pay to play can offer as far as maintenance goes - when I played that course, there was a group on every tee. It was packed, but the flow was smooth. There wasn't too many waiting.
http://www.dgcoursereview.com/course.php?id=763
Pardon the typos. If I could go back and edit them, I would. The forum keeps throwing out errors when I try to hit the edit button.
Perfect example is Adler park in Libertyville.. When it was 18 holes, it was a fun and challenging course every time you played and was free to play. The park district did a good job for many years keeping it updated. Then they went in and redesigned the park. We lost 9 holes and the years of use have caused some holes to be unplayable after a heavy downpour. A few of the baskets really need to be replaced and in the summer, some days you can't even play two holes because of the summer camp kids. Also, it has a huge following of chuckers who grab a friend or two, go off to Walgreens and buy overpriced discs that they can barely throw and almost take over the course on the weekends. I'm extremely surprised we didn't have any problems with chuckers during the Libertyville tournament we had this year.
So.. Would I pay $2-4 a day to play at that park? Hell yeah because the chuckers would leave and the money spent would be used to purchase new baskets and to help with the mud issue. My father had a good idea when I discussed with him the problems with Adler. He said, well you pay Tuesdays to play in the league correct? So instead of having the fee $5, have it $7 and use the extra 2 that u get from each player and save it. It's great to win $400 from an ace but that is ONE basket right there that could be replaced or new sod for the course.
So there are benefits for p2p courses
Quote from: roman on October 13, 2010, 09:06:55 PM
Doug, when you live in a smaller town with lots of land of course it will be tough to argue pay to play courses. I was up in Minneapolis earlier this summer where the disc golf scene is VERY active, and they have a huge variety of 18 hole courses both pay to play and free. The free courses are all old, short, and run down. The pay to play courses are well maintained and have beautiful tees, greens, fairways, etc. You can really tell they had money to put into the courses. Every one of them was packed when I played, even the pay to play courses. I think if you have a great course in an active community then pay to play will not turn people away. Most of the people paying to play disc golf these days are not the casual beginners that don't know the rules and are inconsiderate to others. I would pay money just to avoid courses with rude players.
Check out Bryant Lake park in Minneapolis just to have an idea of what pay to play can offer as far as maintenance goes - when I played that course, there was a group on every tee. It was packed, but the flow was smooth. There wasn't too many waiting.
http://www.dgcoursereview.com/course.php?id=763
last I checked, Peoria wasn't a small town.
but I have beautiful courses already.
and the chuckers, also need to be taught ettiquette, so teach them, don't just avoid those people.
not trying to argue with anyone on this topic. I just stated my feelings.
Quote from: roman on October 13, 2010, 09:06:55 PM
Doug, when you live in a smaller town with lots of land of course it will be tough to argue pay to play courses. I was up in Minneapolis earlier this summer where the disc golf scene is VERY active, and they have a huge variety of 18 hole courses both pay to play and free. The free courses are all old, short, and run down. The pay to play courses are well maintained and have beautiful tees, greens, fairways, etc. You can really tell they had money to put into the courses. Every one of them was packed when I played, even the pay to play courses. I think if you have a great course in an active community then pay to play will not turn people away. Most of the people paying to play disc golf these days are not the casual beginners that don't know the rules and are inconsiderate to others. I would pay money just to avoid courses with rude players.
Check out Bryant Lake park in Minneapolis just to have an idea of what pay to play can offer as far as maintenance goes - when I played that course, there was a group on every tee. It was packed, but the flow was smooth. There wasn't too many waiting.
http://www.dgcoursereview.com/course.php?id=763
You most have not had much time to tour all of the twin cities. Bryant Lake is a weak P2P course, compared to Hyland, Elm Creek, and BRP (the other P2P courses in the area). Yes it is fantastically maintained but it isn't anymore challenging then Oakwood, Lakewood Hills, North Valley (or whatever they call it now), Kaposia (i still think this is the hardest course in the area), and thats just what comes to mind. There are several 12 holers that come close in quality as well. Just cause they aren't as 'pretty' doesn't mean their not well maintained. In the year i lived there not once did i go to any of the free courses and see a poorly maintained course. But the twin cities has a huge advantage over most of the country, they have Timmy Gill and Chuck Kennedy right in town.
Quote from: Bruce Brakel on October 13, 2010, 08:28:33 PM
Growing the sport II. The only sport I know that intentionally grew itself was soccer. The US Soccer Federation tried top down attempts several times, finding investors to throw money at professional soccer. Finally they gave up on that and decided to take a ten-year hiatus from supporting professional soccer. Instead they threw all their energy into schools and leagues for children. They grew a huge player base for soccer. It is still boring to watch.
Growing the sport IV: I think this is mostly about some people wanting to validate what they do by growing it into the mainstream. What we do is valid regardless of the number of people who join us. What we do is valid regardless of whether stoners and alcoholics enjoy doing it too. I don't think any of you have identified an actual problem that you have that would be solved by making disc golf larger. What is your problem that you think would be solved by growing the sport?
Growing the sport V: Did you watch the live coverage of USDGC on the last day? I actually watch pro disc golf at courses when I cannot play, but I was too busy playing disc golf to watch USDGC live.
II - LOL! thats funny, soccer sucks
IV - You know I never thought about it that way. The reason I want to grow the sport is to develop better courses, i think that if the sport is more mainstream, districts/officials will be more willing to give the land and support higher caliber courses. I am all for P2P in the area, and i think for this area to move up in the disc golf scene is to have some top notch P2P courses.
V - I watched what I could while at work, but i made sure to leave my home computer and work computer on it all day to drive up ratings and viewrer numbers.
I like the idea of both free and pay to play. I would be willing ot pay to have a good pay to play course near me.
Check out discgolfcoursereview.com
Almost all of the top courses are private and/or pay to play.
I don't think pay to play would grow the sport any more than the current free courses we have. The crappy courses around me have tons of people on them all year. That # continue's to grow each year.
Round Lake- tons of use.
Adler- tons of use.
Crystal Lake-tons of use.
Gurnee- moderate use.
Grayslake- moderate use.
Bevier- 5 years ago I could go out there and i'd be the only one on the course. Now there are groups out there every day.
Quote from: CEValkyrie on October 14, 2010, 09:43:36 AM
Bevier- 5 years ago I could go out there and i'd be the only one on the course. Now there are groups out there every day.
Same with Shady Oaks..
Quote from: pdga#7648 on October 14, 2010, 03:51:59 AM
last I checked, Peoria wasn't a small town.
but I have beautiful courses already.
and the chuckers, also need to be taught ettiquette, so teach them, don't just avoid those people.
not trying to argue with anyone on this topic. I just stated my feelings.
You probably don't have the same chuckers as we do here. The last time someone threw on me and I tried to tell them to stop, the guy came up to me and grabbed four discs out of my bag and sprayed them into a field. Last year after some 10 year old kids threw on a group of high school chuckers, those high school punks came after the 10 year olds. One of the locals stepped up trying to stop the ridiculous fight and ended up getting slammed face first into the sidewalk and beaten.
You can go ahead and speak to these kids if you want, but I'll just go to another course - or pay to avoid them. I have enough shit in my day.
wow, I totally see your point.
no we don't have that around here. usually I can go to any course and not have anything like that ever happen. maybe if you throw at them they may throw your disc back(several times actually) but never altercations.
Yes, there are middle school disc theives at warren too. It sucks when they're around.
Quote from: roman on October 14, 2010, 02:49:39 PM
Quote from: pdga#7648 on October 14, 2010, 03:51:59 AM
last I checked, Peoria wasn't a small town.
but I have beautiful courses already.
and the chuckers, also need to be taught ettiquette, so teach them, don't just avoid those people.
not trying to argue with anyone on this topic. I just stated my feelings.
You probably don't have the same chuckers as we do here. The last time someone threw on me and I tried to tell them to stop, the guy came up to me and grabbed four discs out of my bag and sprayed them into a field. Last year after some 10 year old kids threw on a group of high school chuckers, those high school punks came after the 10 year olds. One of the locals stepped up trying to stop the ridiculous fight and ended up getting slammed face first into the sidewalk and beaten.
You can go ahead and speak to these kids if you want, but I'll just go to another course - or pay to avoid them. I have enough shit in my day.
id like to know where youve had this happen. id like to go play a round there
Willow Stream. Not sure if it will be worth it for you. The cops ended up finding the guys that were involved in the fight last year - not sure what ever happened with that.
I don't think that pay to play will supplant no-fee courses. I think they will co-exist drawing their own segment of players, and some of the same players. A disc golf course is so ridiculously inexpensive to a PD than most of their other projects, that they think of it like a walking path. Most of them would not think to charge their patrons to play disc golf.
Pay to play works for me if I'm paying to play in an exclusive disc golf area. Where I don't have to share the disc golf course with joggers, bikers, dog walkers, etc. It also works for me because I know that I won't be playing between groups of 8+ chuckers on the holes in front and behind me.
Chuckers will never contribute anything to disc golf. Sorry to say that but the game has been around for awhile now and nothing has changed with them. They are still the rude, non-knowing or caring of the rules, trash dropping jerks! The general public look at both groups and only see the chuckers but yet call them disc golfers. I was at Adler yesterday and had a group of 4 chuckers in front of me and a mother and her two 8 year oldish kids behind me with frisbees. The chuckers instead of throwing one disc, would each throw 2 and then when they finally did get to the basket, they stood around putting about 3-4 times. By the time we got to hole 4 I had enough and tried to explain to them that you throw one disc and then when you put a disc into the basket, you move on. They started to swear, telling me to mind my own business and called me "Mr Disc golfer". At that point, the mother left with her kids. Chuckers hurt the game more than anything which is why I've come to support p2p courses. Let those idiots have the courses that the park districts don't care about. Thats the other thing I'm sick of. Park Districts who don't give a rats ass for the course. They just build them to get people to the park that no one comes to anyways. During the summer, I was walking to my car when the grass cutter called out to me. Turns out I left a disc and he said that I was lucky to get it back because he was told to just throw away any disc that he finds, EVEN if they have a phone number on it. Nice eh?
Quote from: fathergod on October 16, 2010, 03:47:22 AM
Chuckers will never contribute anything to disc golf.
WRONG! Chuckers are where the money is at. They lose discs the most and are easy to get to buy the "prettiest" (most expensive disc). every sport makes a good deal of their money off their "chuckers"
Disc golf player:
$25-30 for entry fee for a tournament.
Now add money you spend at the merch table.
Plus lunch
Oh and gas money
And hotel if it's not close
A chucker will buy maybe two-three discs at the start of spring/summer. Possibly one or two more if they lose a disc during that time however I've seen chuckers spend just as much time as we do looking for discs.
Since you brought up the topic of expensive discs... Why are they so expensive? Because chuckers buy them or because we do? The average chucker doesn't give a shit if a disc is used for anny's or rollers or anything else. They aren't going on Discraft's website and creaming their pants when they find out there's a new disc called a nuke. They buy it because it sounds cool and fits good in their hands. WE are the ones who care about rolling, overstable, understable, annys, hyzers etc etc etc
Quote from: fathergod on October 16, 2010, 06:34:55 AM
Disc golf player:
$25-30 for entry fee for a tournament.
Now add money you spend at the merch table.
Plus lunch
Oh and gas money
And hotel if it's not close
A chucker will buy maybe two-three discs at the start of spring/summer. Possibly one or two more if they lose a disc during that time however I've seen chuckers spend just as much time as we do looking for discs.
Since you brought up the topic of expensive discs... Why are they so expensive? Because chuckers buy them or because we do? The average chucker doesn't give a shit if a disc is used for anny's or rollers or anything else. They aren't going on Discraft's website and creaming their pants when they find out there's a new disc called a nuke. They buy it because it sounds cool and fits good in their hands. WE are the ones who care about rolling, overstable, understable, annys, hyzers etc etc etc
I believe he meant, money in the disc golf industry, not the necessities the extreme minority tourney players buys. I'm pretty sure chulkers make up 90% or more of all disc golfers.