(http://grabmdiscgolf.com/Grabmclassic.jpg)
Nice, might have to make this one. Haven't been to Rockford yet this year.
anyone know the start times, divisions, entry fees, etc. for this? I couldn't find them on the website.
Quote from: damonshort on July 31, 2011, 04:36:58 PM
anyone know the start times, divisions, entry fees, etc. for this? I couldn't find them on the website.
[/quote
look here
http://grabm.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=events&action=display&thread=365]
no pre reg?
smooth tournament. you guys are approving on efficiency. however, i am very disappointed there were no players packs (added payout instead), so basically over half the field donated to others payouts. this should have been posted and announced long before the tournament. i would not have drove out there had i known.
i like the new hole #2. the new #14 is not really all too great. it changed a good golf hole in to a deuce hole. the west course is in need of MAJOR tree trimming.
all in all i am disappointed in the lack of information you provide pre tournament and the no players pack is irksome. i am going to be very hesitant to drive out there again for a tournament.
Quote from: smyith on August 07, 2011, 06:04:43 PM
smooth tournament. you guys are approving on efficiency. however, i am very disappointed there were no players packs (added payout instead), so basically over half the field donated to others payouts. this should have been posted and announced long before the tournament. i would not have drove out there had i known.
i like the new hole #2. the new #14 is not really all too great. it changed a good golf hole in to a deuce hole. the west course is in need of MAJOR tree trimming.
all in all i am disappointed in the lack of information you provide pre tournament and the no players pack is irksome. i am going to be very hesitant to drive out there again for a tournament.
Actually if you join GRABM on Facebook, you would see all this info you state wasn't provided. Hole 14 East isnt new, they just cleared the the path so people could play through it, you are welcome to play it the other way. C-tiers dont require a player pack and most people want better payouts instead. If you go to a tournament just for a players pack, then you go for the wrong reasons. The west course had been trimmed a lot, but with so few people to do such a big area its hard to please everyone. Thanks for coming and join GRABM on facebook so you aren't lacking info.
I'm from GRABM and I'm sorry for the misunderstanding. As for the trimming on the west like Duain said we only had so much time. About a week ago another storm came through and knocked down more trees. We tried to get to it all but we really didn't have time. We encourage giving us input on how you think the tourney went. As for player pack we didn't say there would be one and as previously said it isn't required for a c-tier. I also agree that more people like the money to go into payouts. There is no requirement to have added cash for a c-tier. Our club worked hard to get the course ready for this tourney. I know what you're saying isn't an "attack" or anything like. I just wanted to clarify a couple things. Join on facebook and check out our website. If you have a question please feel free to ask especially on facebook. We would be happy to answer and you would get an answer in a timely manor. I hope this helps and we are looking for to hopefully seeing you for upcoming tourneys. Sorry again for the misunderstanding.
Quote from: duain on August 07, 2011, 06:13:59 PM
Actually if you join GRABM on Facebook, you would see all this info you state wasn't provided.
i shouldnt have to join facebook to get tournament info. everything should be posted when its announced. not it random updates and comments on one site. and a link for that one source of up to date info isnt provide.
QuoteIf you go to a tournament just for a players pack, then you go for the wrong reasons.
whats it matter what i go to a tournament for. and who was ever polled for if they want players packs or increased payout? i dont necessarily care about the players pack, more just not having it posted anywhere (except apparently on an exclusive site) that there wasnt going to be one. i would have made my choice for what division to play in change. i noticed many people bagging and was curious why. much more understandable with this structure and i wouldve done the same.
QuoteThe west course had been trimmed a lot
ill use one hole as an example, #14
btw, i really liked the temp holes. much more unique and challenging then tourns past. #21 east was sweet.
im not attacking anyone just trying to get the point across that information like that shouldnt be exclusive and should be announced in the flyer.
It was a C-tier. There should be no expectation of a player pack at a C-tier.
I'm always bewildered that anyone wants a player pack. All a player pack is, is a forced purchase of merchandise. "You want to play my tournament? Then you gotta buy a disc. It is included in the entry fee." The other bewildering thing is, if player packs are so awesome why don't pros want them? When I used to have something to do with the IOSeries, I always used to advertise that if any pro wanted the $10 value player pack, which sometimes was $20 in Discraft merch, they could buy in for one. One pro used to buy in regularly. For the ams a player pack is just a forced sale, and sometimes you're forced to buy stuff you have no use for.
If the payouts are not a big am-scam, I'd much rather have fat payouts for the top 40% than player packs for losers. That's the other way of looking at it. Giving out player packs is like paying to last place.
The scores have been posted on the pdga site. http://www.pdga.com/tournament_results/73897
When the PDGA went to mando player packs for B tiers and higher, many players did not want them at all and we did all we could to offer options that would please our B tier am players. Now players have grown up getting player packs and just expect them. How the world changes over time!
Could someone please clarify as to why a 945 rated player was allowed to play intermediate? I thought the cut-off was around 935...
935 and higher is supposed to play Advanced. why they let chuck play Int is a Great question!
Quote from: Bruce Brakel on August 07, 2011, 08:51:40 PM
It was a C-tier. There should be no expectation of a player pack at a C-tier.
i did not know until this tournament that there was no requirement for C tiers. also, the only other tournament ive ever played without a players pack was either doubles or discontinuum invitationals. so i guess ive learned my lesson for the day.
Quote from: Frolfer88 on August 08, 2011, 10:53:52 AM
Could someone please clarify as to why a 945 rated player was allowed to play intermediate? I thought the cut-off was around 935...
because this was setup for sandbagging. and they were not checking for current or player ratings during sign up.
Quote from: Frolfer88 on August 08, 2011, 10:53:52 AM
Could someone please clarify as to why a 945 rated player was allowed to play intermediate? I thought the cut-off was around 935...
because this was setup for sandbagging. and they were not checking for current or player ratings during sign up.
[/quote]
Actually names were checked before hand, didn't you see the person checking the names on a laptop, so your comments are worthless like your attitude. If you look up Chucks name, no rating comes up because he isn't a current PDGA member and you can't see his last rating until you submit the TD report to the PDGA, you would know this if you actually looked.. This tournament wasn't set up for sandbaggers so keep your insults to yourself. You should pay more attention to whats going on instead of looking for things to complain about.
Quote from: Frolfer88 on August 08, 2011, 10:53:52 AM
Could someone please clarify as to why a 945 rated player was allowed to play intermediate? I thought the cut-off was around 935...
Quote from: smyth
because this was setup for sandbagging. and they were not checking for current or player ratings during sign up.
Quote from: duain on August 08, 2011, 08:47:38 PM
Actually names were checked before hand, didn't you see the person checking the names on a laptop, so your comments are worthless like your attitude. If you look up Chucks name, no rating comes up because he isn't a current PDGA member and you can't see his last rating until you submit the TD report to the PDGA, you would know this if you actually looked.. This tournament wasn't set up for sandbaggers so keep your insults to yourself. You should pay more attention to whats going on instead of looking for things to complain about.
I agree the insults are not needed. Checking players who walk up to an event takes work and some planning ahead. Even though he is not current, his rating should have been able to be checked at the registration table. Assuming the PDGA sent the files they usually do, the TD would have had the information to check it. If there was a net connection available (I'm assuming not), a quick google search can reveal a non-current members rating almost all of the time with one query. Most likely this was an oversight by the tournament staff. Conspiracy theories can be left at the door.
Some players have gotten spoiled by events that are extremely well-run and snafus like this (and the fact that this event did not follow 1.9C in the competition manual) can happen. It is best to give feedback to the TDs so that they can do better next time. But jumping all over their back is not the best way to communicate this. Not all TDs have been doing this for very long and many are still learning.
Editted to fix quote markings
Quote from: smyith on August 08, 2011, 03:26:00 PM
because this was setup for sandbagging. and they were not checking for current or player ratings during sign up.
this was not intended as an insult to the tournament staff. first off a tournament set-up with no players pack is going to result in sandbagging. thats just the way it is, whether or not the TD and staff intended it or not. you cant deny that. during the tournament that was discussed by many.
while i was in line at sign up i personally witnessed 2 players say they were non current and werent sure were their rating was. they were told not to worry about it and just pay were they normally would. some people obviously took advantage of that trust. i have been to many tournaments were the TDs have a print out sheet of players current and non current (not just IOS but other states as well). so my statement is not entirely ignorant based on what i saw and know from past experiences.
now as for my attitude, i find it disappointing that any negative criticism given is inferred as offensive automatically. personally based off re-reading my statements i see absolutely nothing that shouldve been taken as insult.
Quote from: smyith on August 08, 2011, 03:26:00 PM
because this was setup for sandbagging.
I believe this statement is what is construed as an insult. I don't know of any TDs that run events for this purpose. Looking at the results, other than the one player who played in the incorrect division, all other players who placed either a) had a rating in the correct division, or b) threw two rounds that are in the normal range for placing in that division. I would hardly consider that sand-bagging.
A C-tier with no player pack is no more attractive for baggers than any other tournament which provides a players pack. Non-local unsanctioned events that provide huge prizes (like a basket) for winners of lower divisions? That's a different story.
Just posting things like this on a public forum can seem like attacking even if it isn't meant to. A PM or e-mail to the TD (use the link on the PDGA tourney page if you don't know any other) is a better way of communicating your suggestions for making a better tournament. Also instead of suggesting they improve something you accuse them of setting up their tournament for sandbagging. I have no idea why a TD would do that, but that statement comes off as complaining.
A TDs job is difficult as it is. Much better to keep the praises public and the suggestions private. IMHO, of course! ;D
Quote from: Jon Brakel on August 09, 2011, 09:06:20 AM
Just posting things like this on a public forum can seem like attacking even if it isn't meant to. A PM or e-mail to the TD (use the link on the PDGA tourney page if you don't know any other) is a better way of communicating your suggestions for making a better tournament......
A TDs job is difficult as it is. Much better to keep the praises public and the suggestions private. IMHO, of course! ;D
Jon,
I understand were you are coming from on that, but its against every fiber of my being to be hush hush about things. stating them loud and publicly is a faster way to move things, it forces the hand to make an action.
what you purpose is the exact style of thinking that has sent this country into the cat liter box. people to afraid to state their opinions, concerns, and fears publicly has allowed for abuse and the powers that be to 'think nothings wrong'. practicing this in any facet just perpetuates the problem.
because of philosophies like this i typically come off as a dick (which i am) but thats not the intended result of my statements. but i relish in the fact that our fore-fathers would be far more proud of the types like me than the willy-nillies who are scared to speak their mind for fear of upsetting someone. weak-minded individuals are the easiest to make into sheep.
*DISCLAIMER*
This is not direct at anyone in particular but a broad statement. I mean no offense to anyone but the general masses as a whole.
i obviously need to work on my encoding and others need to desensitize their decoding.
OK so from what I have gathered, the people checking for current members and ratings messed up and let an advanced player play in a lower division. You can see why some people are upset because first place payout was around $158! I think it is great that the Grabm guys could give out that much with only a $25 entry fee. However you can see why someone would try and sandbag at the same time. Chuck would have also won advanced if he had played in it but the payout was only $131 and it cost $10 more to play. But all that aside, should there be any repercussions? Everyone makes mistakes, so I hope to bring this to Grabm's attention for future tournaments, but Chuck had to have known what his rating was yet he still played in a lower division, is there anything the PDGA has to say about such instances?
@Smyith, you asked and I gave you my opinion. Many people treat TDs and other tournament staff like they are being paid to do these jobs and that the players are their customer. For all but a few TDs this work is just a volunteer side hobby that we do for fun and the betterment of the sport. If you treat your volunteers like shit they'll stop coming back.
@Frolfer88, the PDGA might consider some kind of sanctioning for intentionally playing out of their division but it is doubtful. Someone would need to officially complain to the PDGA and if it doesn't come from the TD it probably won't be very persuasive. I don't think I've ever seen the PDGA punish a player for playing in the wrong division.
The reason payouts were so high is because we got a sponsor to donate 500 for our c-tier. Most of you know it isn't required to do this for a c-tier so we went above requirements for the players coming to the tourney. I'm sorry that we didn't catch the one guy with the rating above 935 but mistakes happen. I will make sure to bring this up to our club and td and I'm sure we will get it straightened out. If he would of moved up to advanced the payouts would of been higher in advanced and lower in intermediate. Again I'm sorry this happened and we will make sure we address this in the future. I hope to see some of you at the annual GRABM Halloween doubles tourney. If you have anymore questions please feel free to ask and I will try to get back to you soon
Thank you for the explanation. I understand mistakes happen, and I'm glad that you will discuss it for the next tournament. The added $500 was also great to see for the am division. Thanks again and see you guys in October!
what you purpose is the exact style of thinking that has sent this country into the cat liter box. people to afraid to state their opinions, concerns, and fears publicly has allowed for abuse and the powers that be to 'think nothings wrong'. practicing this in any facet just perpetuates the problem.
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sorry had to comment
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the problem is that people feel they can state their opinions in any type of forum like this one with out being held
accountable to what they say
you say you are not complaining but you ARE
you all tend not to practice what you preach no matter what you type
so with that being said > i suggest you all volunteer to work a tournament to see exactly what is involved
rockford guys >>thanks for all the hard work ,, thread drift city
minor extension of the thread drift as Spuds has raised an interesting issue--
I didn't read anything as saying we should shut up and not air our concerns. I read Jon's comment as wisely suggesting that the first move to be a PM to the TD. It may be that the concerrn is addressed or misunderstood. No firestorm is raised. If after the PM the commenter feels that something is still amiss he/she can air it out publicly. I read the comment as a call for the initial communication, especially when it is a complaint, to be addressed directly rather than publicly.
Let me put it in a White Sox context to make it clearer--
If Ozzie has a problem with a player he should deal with it in the clubhouse before trashing the player at a press conference.
OK- back to the thread. I'm bummed I couldn't go and play those great courses. Will do so next time!
The other reasoning is just efficiency of communication. This is not the home of Grabm. They were just advertising their tournament the same as we advertise tournaments on their site and other disc golf club sites. If you post here the TD might not see it any time soon, if ever, but I think most people setup their forum accounts to notify them if they get a PM.
Having said that anyone is free to post up what ever questions they may have about tournaments in the appropriate threads I was just suggesting that there are other ways.
Quote from: Jon Brakel on August 10, 2011, 09:39:49 AM
The other reasoning is just efficiency of communication. This is not the home of Grabm. They were just advertising their tournament the same as we advertise tournaments on their site and other disc golf club sites. If you post here the TD might not see it any time soon, if ever, but I think most people setup their forum accounts to notify them if they get a PM.
it wasnt even posted on their own message board....................apparently only mentioned on facebook, which i can not see anyway.
@ smyth: I know you are very opinionated, but when typing things on an online forum it becomes very hard to express tone and true meaning with your posts. Unlike in real life it is difficult to sense sarcasm and if something said can possibly be perceived in a negative way it likely will be perceived that way by someone. I noticed you butting heads with people on DGCR too and as a fellow Discontinuum member I urge you to re-read what you post before you hit the Submit button. Look for ways it can possibly be perceived negatively. I know your intentions are good, but sometimes your sarcasm and negativity get in the way of what you are trying to say and hinder the impact of your posts.
@ GRABM: Thanks for another good tourney. I enjoyed myself at the Rockford open as well ad the GRABM Classic. I also think what was done with #2 and #14 on the east course was a sweet change. IMO, it changed gimmicky holes into solid tunnel shots that demand execution. Well done!
Getting back to the disc golf aspect of this thread... Case what were the changes to 2 and 14 on the old, East, course? I get to Rockford frequently but to Anna Page not nearly enough. I will have to check this out. Please elaborate on the new holes. 2 used to be a very sharp left turn that was brutal for a soft throwing lefty. 14 had trees on the right and a post in the middle. I recall a canopy but may not be remembering it. The hole either went straight or sharply to the right after about 150 ft depnding on the basket location. What are they now?
I'm confused what "wasn't" posted on GRABM's site?? If you're talking about the tourney it was posted well before the tourney and you posted and asked a question in the thread. (sorry, this is for smyith) here is the link http://grabm.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=events&action=display&thread=365. As for everyone thanking GRABM you're welcome!! We are happy you had a good time! Chainmeister hole 2 didn't get a whole lot easier for lefties. After you are done with hole one you go up the hill to the left and there is a teepad we dug. It goes through the woods and left at the end and is pretty tight. Hole 14 is better for lefties. The area that used to be ob is now not ob. It's a tunnel shot that's pretty risk reward. Makes the hole fun! Hope to see you out there soon and good luck with your next tourney!!
David here is a rough overhead. Its not the best visual, but I think it will help give you the feel of the new hole. The red paths are the old layouts, the triangles are the baskets, the green circle (on #2) is the new pad, and the green paths are the new flight lines. The tunnels are sweet, it looks like the GRABM guys just drove a bulldozer through the tunnels. I am sure it wasn't that easy though.
(http://i263.photobucket.com/albums/ii132/WingmanCreations/NewRockfordLayout.png)
Quote from: Case J on August 10, 2011, 03:37:08 PM
@ smyth: I know you are very opinionated, but when typing things on an online forum it becomes very hard to express tone and true meaning with your posts. Unlike in real life it is difficult to sense sarcasm and if something said can possibly be perceived in a negative way it likely will be perceived that way by someone. I noticed you butting heads with people on DGCR too and as a fellow Discontinuum member I urge you to re-read what you post before you hit the Submit button. Look for ways it can possibly be perceived negatively. I know your intentions are good, but sometimes your sarcasm and negativity get in the way of what you are trying to say and hinder the impact of your posts.
like i said.
Quote from: smyith on August 09, 2011, 10:31:40 AM
i obviously need to work on my encoding and others need to desensitize their decoding.
Quote from: DaBus85 on August 10, 2011, 06:15:41 PM
I'm confused what "wasn't" posted on GRABM's site??
Quote from: smyith on August 07, 2011, 08:11:24 PMi dont necessarily care about the players pack, more just not having it posted anywhere (except apparently on an exclusive site <facebook>) that there wasnt going to be one.
Nice job Case! I wish we had a bulldozer, but we aren't even allowed to use power tools at the course. Everything that we do is done by hand tools. So it's a lot of work but it's worth it. I'm happy to see positive feed back on those holes!