Bruce made some valid points in his post under Safari.
The more i've become involved, the more I dislike the way decisions are made. The bigger we get(DISContinuum), the harder it becomes to please everyone. I've thought about this long before Bruce's post.
Example-] IO
Jon & I took some heavy heat for our decisions about the IO. That took a toll on us. It's too hard to please everyone. We felt like we were in front of a jury at one of the club meetings, trying to show that our tournament would work & that we didn't have this grand scheme to make Bruce thousands of dollars.
I've said it a few times in the past. Those who spend the time & support the club should make the final decisions. I would like to see club meetings where we discuss like we did yestarday & then the Ops can take a final vote. It will probably never happen, but that's the way i'd like to see it happen.
Every decision i've tried to make has been for the good of the club & to get more involvement from club members & non club members.
I want to play disc golf & have fun playing disc golf. I'm too young to waste my playing time. I don't want to worry about all this stuff & it did affect my play this summer (injury during work day) & mentally. It really got to me on Saturday.
Saying this, I will be stepping down as President on December 31st. I'm not sure how things will work but i'd like to be put back in my Vice President position that I had. I believe it was a 2 year term. If that doesn't happen, i'm ok with that.
Basically, I will be doing the same things i've done in the past. I'm not going anywhere. I just don't like my role as being labeled President. I will still have the same decision making power as everyone else in the club. I'll make my votes, voice my opinions, & volunteer at events & work days.
Jon - I agree with you that aside from the positions needing to exist for incorporation purposes they really are underutilized.
I also agree that some additional wording/amendment to the club consititution *might* be in order to facilitate that, but we'll see on that one...
Usually someone asking a question doesn't mean they have the answer, unless your my older brother Mark and you're just asking to quiz.
Bruce, how dare you try to be honest! I thought people in the legal profession weren't... isn't that a stipulation for passing the bar? :p
It really bothers me when people get upset or frustrated with the club. The whole main idea is to have fun with friends and to spread the fun around. When you're not having fun, it sucks.
Guess what: I have not had much fun for the past 2 years! Having responsibility is demanding and difficult. But there must be a few people to take this on so that the majority of players and members can have fun without hinking about all the behind-the-scenes mechanics of an organization.
I could not follow through on my presidency this year because of time restrictions, and Brett stepped up willingly. That had to be tough. Especially with me still involved and with my heavy opinions. I take my hat off to you buddy! You are doing an AWESOME job!
But I ask that you (or anyone) not take club stuff too seriously. Nobody is relying on us for food, shelter, or money. We're just here to help ourselves and others have fun.
Regarding the IO issues, you're still taking them personally. Don't. You may not realize it, but I've taken just as much heat for some of the events I've run. I'm still getting guff for the HPC Memorial. Heck, I'm still catching hell for the WB of 2001!!! That is just part of the job.
We cannot please everyone.
We cannot always be completely fair.
We can and do try.
We are doing a great job. If a ruling keeps coming up (like the $2 rule), that means it might deserve further examination or review. We don't always get things right the first time. That's OK. This club is a work in progress and we are all doing the best we can.
We have these psitions so that the club can have some semblance of order and hierarchy of people to go to when things need to get done.
We all agreed on these positions and voted to fill these positions twice, making minor changes each time.
Another reason we need officers and a board of directors is for incorporation and insurance.
Unless we totally want to revamp the club, re-apply for some other sort of organizational status, or change or philosophy, we should keep the structure the same. Any changes we make must be filed with the IRS, each change incurs a $15-$50 filing fee.
What's the real issue here?
How about this:
Lets try to be specific when we post on serious issues.
If you have a problem, say it outright.
Try to follow that up with a solid suggestion.
Jon, when you said:
"I agree with Brett that our ops and officer positions are not really utilized very well. I don't think any of our roles are defined very well..."
But then you said you weren't suggesting change or sure that anything had to change. What WAS your point, then?
When things are heated like this, please don't just 'throw something out there'.
I have no idea what you are saying.
Too many excuses and conditional statements and emotional clarifications.
Seriously, I'm not just bashing.
Again, why are you bringing up the questioning about the Illinois Open again and again?
If we didn't question methods, profit margins, and specifics, the club officers would not have been doing their jobs.
As for decision-making, it is part of the Articles of Incorporation of the club that ALL MEMBERS get to vote on club decisions. If we change that, we change the club. Why do we need to change voting procedues? This is NOT an elitist club. EVERY MEMBER gets a say.
If you think that the people who show up at more events than others deserve more of a say-so, you're wrong. Some people live closer than others and CAN show up more often. I refuse to tailor events for a select few. What makes those players more important? Plenty of club members contribute plenty and rarely show up for events. Support has many faces. Keep it fun for everybody! The day we stop keeping the newbie in mind, is a bad day.
I'm done now. See y'all at the Blast.
Questioning is good - check & balances and all. I am not in favor of a TD agreement which gives the TDs unlimited, unchecked authority when using the club name.
I am in favor of a TD agreement which clarifies roles and responsibilities.
I don't think I took any suggestions for the Illinois Open as an insult. I'm always up for opinions. Any way to improve an event, i'm all ears. Those kind of things don't bother me. I heard good & bad about the course. I heard good & bad about the tournament. Now we know what we need to improve for next year.
The thing that bother me is basically being acused of the Brett & Brakel Brothers trying to come up with some grand scheme to make a ton of money for Bruce. We had to sit & persuade club members to go along with this idea. All those who were against it the most, didn't even play the event. Again, a case of club members voting one way but not supporting the event. The boycotting of events is BS. That is what bothers me.
I will continue to have fun playing disc golf & participating in DISContinuum Events. I always have a great time @ our events.
I don't think me stepping down as President will change a thing. I really don't think not having a President would change things either.
The people who show up for club meetings are those who make the decisions. Why do we need officials & ops? They are just lables.
Our most valueable positions our the webmasters. Mirth & Jay get a lot of information posted in a hurry. Without this, our club would suffer.
First, I would hate to see us lose club members over these petty isssues.
The $2.00 option may never be used or very little.
My attitude & philosphy has not changed. I'm hear to have a good time & 99.9% of the time I do. I will continue to suport DISContinuum. My vision for this club when I stepped in was to take it to a higher level. Hopefully in the future it will.
I think the process of decison making for the club is flawed. That is just my own opinion & i'm not bashing anyone. Votes tend to pass & those who vote don't participate in those activities. Not all but most. It's hard for me to accpet the fact that someone that shows up once a month & participates in very few events has just as much power as the one's who spend all the time & effort to organize & run events.
I thought Bruce's point was very valid after the meeting. That's just my opinion. I could care less about the $2.00 rule. It does not affect me. It's the point that someone who has not attended 1 Safari has the same power as someone who has attended all 9.
This is why I am stepping down as Persident. It's just a label & it won't change anything for me.
As for the IO,
I felt like we were being questioned from every angle & were not trusted to run a good event. These were the same people who voted me into Presidency. This was all before the event happened.
I have no problem with players asking about payouts & procedures after the event. I do it at every tournament & will contiue to do it. We had no shame in the payouts for the IO. They were posted on a huge bulletin board in a place that everyone could find it. I had 1 person complain to me that thought the payout plastic was valued too high. If there are more, no one talked to me.
I'm looking forward to moving on. I am done discussing the IO & the $2.00 Option.
Wow what a hoot, come on guys there is no need to quit the club over a few thoughts left from others. We need you guys...
I was the guy at the meeting saying that Madisons vote should not count...she had no idea what she was voting for. Most of us did not either, that is why I stopped the vote for clarification. The vote should have stayed at a tie, which would leave things the way they were before we voted. Now we have a senerio where players that would have given a few bucks to play will just not play.
Brett, I don't understand the whole sponsor issue either...does not make sense. I questioned the IO when I was unclear to how the #'s were going to work with Bruce's/Jon's plan. You guys were very professional and I appreciate it, sorry for second quessing you. I personnally have not heard of a event not pissing someone off in one way or another. I do think that Gary and the Wallis Bros get people asking why events are run a certain way. These people that ask are usually upper level Am's that are wondering how the payouts work, but not asking in a nice manner...it sucks...you did it about the Praire Open. No big deal. I was over it a few days ago :]
We are all new to this CLUB thing, we are not perfect and we are learning as we go. In the 4 years that I have had in playing tournaments, I have seen many fights and clubs go to shit. Most of it second quessing others. 2 months ago at a GLDGC meeting a few guys went fist to cuffs...why? misunderstanding and second quessing. We don't need this, yet it will happen.
This is the reason we need to get a TD contract so the club has no involvement in how an event is ran. The club will set some guidelines for the TD if it is for leagues or an event. In return, the club will get a buck or two or whatever for each player. GLDGC gets a buck from every Milwaukee league, thats lots of $. People will not mind the extra $ as long as they see what our site has to offer. This will be extra work for the web guys, but some of the cash can go for administrative cost...if you know what I mean.
sorry for dragging...this is another topic, I could go on and on.
I find this message from Duster very much needed right now...
WHO ARE YOU??
Keep your head down and never volunteer!! Those were words to live by in my Marine Corp days, but stop to think where disc sports would be without volunteers. Yep, we'd all be sitting on our duffs watching Tiger Woods make himself into a multi-millionaire.
Volunteers have taken disc sports to the edge of mainstream sports nationally. Volunteers have placed new courses at our disposal all over the state and more "Dream Courses" are to come. Volunteers past and present have built and maintained courses, are working together effectively as clubs, doing community service work in schools and with youth groups.
Through volunteering, people are making names for themselves and embedding those names in the history of disc sports (locally, statewide and nationally). You can get to know people through leagues & tournaments, but when you volunteer, people get to know you!!
Do something for yourself today - volunteer to help disc sports grow. Recognize that this is and always will be an important part of your life. I'm not asking you to do anything you are not capable of, I'll not ask you to do more than you have time for. Understand that a heavy load becomes lighter when it is shared and best of all, people will get to know you!! Duster
The name of this thread is odd, but...
I agree with Brett that our ops and officer positions are not really utilized very well. I don't think any of our roles are defined very well (or if they are defined somewhere that definition isn't well communicated or followed). Whether you are talking about the president, vice president, operations, or even Jim's role. It's just kind of whatever that person wants to do. But then people who aren't in those positions are also free to volunteer to do stuff as well. The more people who are involved directly with the things that we do, the better. However, I'm not sure why we have the formal positions.
I wasn't suggesting we change the structure, just maybe give the structure more meaning. But I'm not sure we have to change anything. Its just a line of discussion that Brett's comments made me think about.
I thought that some discussion about the roles of the positions might be helpful. That does not mean that ultimately I think anything has to be changed. But it might mean that. All I was saying was that I thought the roles weren't well defined, but maybe we could talk about it. Maybe the roles are/were defined somewhere, and I haven't seen it.
I was attempting to relate to some of Brett's post and commenting that I thought some discussion of that aspect of his post merits further discussion.
I don't share all of Brett's frustrations (a lot of them, but not all), but on this point I did, so I was relating to the post that started this thread. But just because I have the need to discuss something, doesn't mean that I have the answer. So, I was leaving open the possibility that the answer might be that the status quo is the best solution.
QuoteJim (09-15-2003 03:13 p.m.):
I have no idea what you are saying.
Too many excuses and conditional statements and emotional clarifications.
Seriously, I'm not just bashing.
Not feeling bashed, Jim. I'm ok, you're ok. :)
I made no excuses or emotional clarifications. I'm sorry that most of that post are multiple conditional statements. It is confusing.
Perhaps this is more clear:
I share a lot of Brett's frustrations. I think it would be less frustrating if we had more clearly defined roles within the existing Discontinuum structure. Feel free to agree or disagree. Just don't call my brother an egotistical fat head, that's my job.
Quotemirth (09-15-2003 03:23 p.m.):
Bruce, how dare you try to be honest! I thought people in the legal profession weren't... isn't that a stipulation for passing the bar? :p
I think that's why Bruce "seperated" from the only law firm he ever worked for 15 years ago.
I agree with Shawn. Didn't think I'd ever post that! :)
The Discontinuum TD contract will help TDs in the future to run events without having to be questioned all the time. This won't solve all of our problems, but it will help with some. I am working on it and plan to have a draft ready for the meeting in October.
QuoteJim (09-16-2003 09:34 a.m.):
Questioning is good - check & balances and all. I am not in favor of a TD agreement which gives the TDs unlimited, unchecked authority when using the club name.
I am in favor of a TD agreement which clarifies roles and responsibilities.
Me too. The contract would only give the TD specific rights as outlined in the contract. The purpose of the contract is to protect the interests of of the TD AND Discontinuum.
This is a viewpoint from Bruce, logged in and all officially me:
I'll have a viewpoint when someone offers to pay me $100 an hour to have one, and that's pretty cheap too. Until then, I'm flip-flopping sides on odd numbered days to keep all issues in play until I can figure out how to make some money off all this.