Off topic IOS threads

[Jwt4412]

If we are going to be modifying/manipulating posts - at least put it in context...

Bruce's number crunching is correct, although I would say it was 17.00 for champ and 19.00 for star based upon the pricing I have been exposed to...  But the pricing I have been exposed to requires a minimum of 25 of each mold at time of purchase and maybe Bruce's is seeing pricing that allows someone to get fewer of each mold at one time...

resulted in this response...

To jwt4412, my pricing included shipping and sales tax.  I know some TDs don't pay their sales tax when they buy from out-of-state vendors.  Scott and I always pay our sales taxes. 

I assure you, we do what is required.  Differences don't always have to be nefarious.  I am a big admirer of what has been built to become the IOS, why is it necessary to imply that other TD's and Series are unethical and shysters?

Not sure what you are referring to as out-of-state vendors, as we would make all of our purchases directly from the manufacturers.  If there are middlemen... that might explain some of the differences.

[pdga#7648]

that is just Bruce being Bruce!!!

[Jon Brakel]

No, it is people being too sensitive. Bruce wasn't saying that everyone except for Scott and Bruce pay sales tax. He was just pointing out that his pricing that he quoted does include sales tax. I don't remember what state it was but the last time that I saw Bruce he was telling me that a TD just recently got into trouble for not paying sales taxes on discs sold. So, we know that at least one TD was not. Bruce was pointing out that his price includes sales tax...not that he was assuming that Jwt4412 does not pay sales tax. Jeesh!

[Bruce Brakel]

And, when you buy discs from "Innova East" that is an assumed name for Carolina Flying Discs, a vendor.  They do not manufacture any discs.

[Jwt4412]

Wow. I am pretty sure the resistance you encountered when venturing outside the confines of chicagoland had nothing to do with IOS itself...

I seemed to have been misinformed, my exposure to IOS has basically been Brett, Tom and Scott - I had previously posted... "I am at a loss why any group of locals would be adverse to having a well run series event played on their local courses..."

Suddenly, it is clear to me.

[smyith]

that is just Bruce being Bruce!!!

that is a weak excuse. especially for someone who is a figure head of Discontinuum and the IOS. i read it the same way as JWT4412 did, and i think that it was meant the way it was said. it may have not been a direct jab at Jwt4412 but it was a jab none the less.

[Dan Michler]

that is just Bruce being Bruce!!!

that is a weak excuse. especially for someone who is a figure head of Discontinuum and the IOS. i read it the same way as JWT4412 did, and i think that it was meant the way it was said. it may have not been a direct jab at Jwt4412 but it was a jab none the less.

smyith, why are you always on here looking for a fight?

[Jon Brakel]

that is just Bruce being Bruce!!!

that is a weak excuse. especially for someone who is a figure head of Discontinuum and the IOS. i read it the same way as JWT4412 did, and i think that it was meant the way it was said. it may have not been a direct jab at Jwt4412 but it was a jab none the less.

smyith, why are you always on here looking for a fight?

Bruce is not a figure head of Discontinuum or the IOS. Bruce used to be the merch man of the IOS but stepped down last year. Bruce has never been associated with Discontinuum as anything other than a member. Bruce does not represent the IOS or Discontinuum. All of his posts should be attributed to Bruce and only Bruce.

Also it is impossible for Bruce to be making a jab at JWT4412 because I'm quite sure that Bruce does not know what his real name is. Bruce would have no idea that he is a TD or that he is associated with Springfield disc golf.

And finally it is NOT a "jab" to say that not all TDs pay sales tax on their discs when it is known that some TDs have gotten into trouble for not paying sales tax on their discs. This is called a fact, not a jab.

[Chainmeister]

I'll give you a research project.  Search Bruce's name and you will find a cornucopia of comments that are true but perhaps stated in an impolitic way.  When it was said "That's just Bruce being Bruce" a truth was uttered. When evaluating Bruce's discourse you can get into  one of two long lines.  One line contains those of us who have a chuckle at a comment we would have never dare made. The other line contains those who have been insulted by Bruce.  In either case you will not be alone.  There have been times when he has crossed the line and the apparrent insult is actually a direct attack.  Going back to the research project you will note he has thousands of posts. With that volume you will find some comments that bluntly accuse somebody of somkekind of malfeasance.  He rarely minces words.  Accordingly, if you have a comment (such as his comment about sales tax) that is ambigous it was certainly not an attack. If he wanted to attack you or anybody else it would have been painfully clear. He doesn't beat around the bush like I do.

[smyith]

that is just Bruce being Bruce!!!

that is a weak excuse. especially for someone who is a figure head of Discontinuum and the IOS. i read it the same way as JWT4412 did, and i think that it was meant the way it was said. it may have not been a direct jab at Jwt4412 but it was a jab none the less.

smyith, why are you always on here looking for a fight?

who is looking for a fight? i certainly am not. what in that comment is trying to start a fight? bruce may not technical be a "figure head" but he is viewed as one. whether or not those of you who are more involved with the club think he is. the truth is the name Brakel is directly associated with IOS. they go together like it or not. barrish i know exactly what you are talking about but that doesn't give him the right to act like that on the boards and then when others do its considered starting a fight. double standards seem to exist on this board heavily.
look at Jwt4412 last post, i know many people who have this exact feeling. consider the numbers of people who played IOS events back in 2006, 200+ people every weekend. what happened to those numbers? the past couple of years most events haven't been filling. Ever wonder why?

see how easily a comment can be mis-interpreted? your comment can be turned right back on you. why are you always on here trying to start fights?

[Jwt4412]

Also it is impossible for Bruce to be making a jab at JWT4412 because I'm quite sure that Bruce does not know what his real name is. Bruce would have no idea that he is a TD or that he is associated with Springfield disc golf.

And finally it is NOT a "jab" to say that not all TDs pay sales tax on their discs when it is known that some TDs have gotten into trouble for not paying sales tax on their discs. This is called a fact, not a jab.

Jon, I am sure Bruce can check his tax records and find the 1k purchase from me using the sdgc paypal...  I kid.... and I drop.

[Jon Brakel]

Also it is impossible for Bruce to be making a jab at JWT4412 because I'm quite sure that Bruce does not know what his real name is. Bruce would have no idea that he is a TD or that he is associated with Springfield disc golf.

And finally it is NOT a "jab" to say that not all TDs pay sales tax on their discs when it is known that some TDs have gotten into trouble for not paying sales tax on their discs. This is called a fact, not a jab.

Jon, I am sure Bruce can check his tax records and find the 1k purchase from me using the sdgc paypal...  I kid.... and I drop.

Knowing Bruce's questionable memory he still might not remember! LOL! Or he might not know to associate your screen nsme with your real name.

I appologize to those that I offended. I probably should not have said people were being too sensitive. I think some people just took Bruce's post the wrong way.

I do hope that the name Brakel is associated with the IOS! I also hope that people know that I am not Bruce and he is not me. I cannot be held responsible for what Bruce posts and he has the same rights to post on this message board as anyone else. He also has had his posts questioned, deleted or changed by mode so I don't think you can say he gets any favoritism here.

[CEValkyrie]

that is just Bruce being Bruce!!!

that is a weak excuse. especially for someone who is a figure head of Discontinuum and the IOS. i read it the same way as JWT4412 did, and i think that it was meant the way it was said. it may have not been a direct jab at Jwt4412 but it was a jab none the less.

smyith, why are you always on here looking for a fight?

who is looking for a fight? i certainly am not. what in that comment is trying to start a fight? bruce may not technical be a "figure head" but he is viewed as one. whether or not those of you who are more involved with the club think he is. the truth is the name Brakel is directly associated with IOS. they go together like it or not. barrish i know exactly what you are talking about but that doesn't give him the right to act like that on the boards and then when others do its considered starting a fight. double standards seem to exist on this board heavily.
look at Jwt4412 last post, i know many people who have this exact feeling. consider the numbers of people who played IOS events back in 2006, 200+ people every weekend. what happened to those numbers? the past couple of years most events haven't been filling. Ever wonder why?

see how easily a comment can be mis-interpreted? your comment can be turned right back on you. why are you always on here trying to start fights?

I went back and checked 2006 in the peak of the IOS. I believe this is the biggest difference.

In 2006 from May to August there were 9 PDGA events in Illinois. 3 of those were 1 day C-Tiers. 6 of those 9 i'd consider to be Chicagoland tournaments. 1 was the Discontinuum Club Invitaional which has an unusual format. Over 4 monthes the players really had 5 opportunities to play an event locally in the Chicagoland area. That is pretty close to 1 event per month during the prime disc golf monthes. At the time the lower divisions in the Chicagoland area were not being sanctioned at most of the non IOS events.

In 2010 from May to August there were 19 PDGA events in Illinois. 11 of those 19 i'd consider Chicagoland tournaments. 1 was the Joliet Invitatinonal which has an unusual format. Over the 4 monthes the players had 10 opportunites to play an event locally in the Chicagoland area. The players had over 2 events per month to chose from.

[damonshort]

When I first started playing tournaments around the turn of the century, it was standard procedure that there was one day for Open and Advanced, and another "unsanctioned" day for everyone else. For someone like me, who will never in this lifetime ever approach 'Advanced' by any definition, that meant paying an entry fee, getting an x-out or other disc that you might be able to use, maybe a mini or a sticker, and then, if you play well enough, some funny money to 'buy' some more discs that same day. PDGA ratings, even though they existed then, were never part of the equation. I may have played well, more likely I played badly, but my membership in the PDGA was worthless. (well, particularly worthless, but that's another topic....)

Maybe this would have changed eventually anyhow, but the IOS concept, and the people involved with it, was in the FOREFRONT of making the tournament experience more attractive for the 'amateur' player.

I remember ONE tournament in Streamwood; at least for 'below Advanced', it was non-sanctioned. (this was long before the recent terrific things going on at Streamwood...).  I remember ONE tournament in Lombard; at least for 'below Advanced', it was non-sanctioned. Until the last few years, the 'second day' Joliet tournaments were never sanctioned. I played several tournaments in Wisconsin on the off-day that were non-sanctioned. I haven't played any Rockford tournaments that weren't IOS-associated; I believe there are still non-sanctioned opportunities there, but it's better than it used to be.

But in general, there was the Joliet 'series', a couple of things in Rockford, a couple of things in Peoria, and that was it.

So much of that has changed, and the IOS was the MAJOR factor in that.. What has remained, unfortunately, is the sense of territoriality (or whatever) against 'outsiders' holding tournaments in areas where the the locals can't get their act together to put on a tournament, or choose to selectively ignore PDGA standards for a PDGA 'sanctioned' event. (several locales around the 'tri-State area", and most of us probably know where they are.)

I'm not suggesting that anyone should go through all the hassle, but I am saying "if you're not going to do it, let someone else do it, and shut up".  I'm getting old enough now that I can sit back in my rocker and say that this is just stupid.

It looks to me that tournament attendance the last couple of years has dropped off overall, whether it's IOS or not. Maybe it's the economy, maybe the novelty has worn off. 7-8 years ago, there were a handful of tournaments during the year; as has been pointed out, there are tons more now.. You can't play everything.

fer cryin out loud folks!  It's a game!  We all like playing it. (usually.) Nobody's making money off it.

Taxes exist. They finance good things, really (well, mostly.) You need to pay them.

Sure, Bruce can be abrasive. (either Jon or Bruce himself has pointed out that if Bruce has never p*d you off, you just haven't been paying attention.) But if you avoid a tournament because you feel he's affiliated or (worse) that he's making a profit (which he certainly isn't), <rocker> you're just plain stupid. </rocker>

You want to put on a tournament, put on a tournament. If players want to play it, they'll play. But if you're going to offer something that will attract them, you're most likely going to offer a model that the IOS has been offering for years.

[CEValkyrie]

I have been wanting to compare some numbers anyway and this motivated me to go back and look.

2006
9 Illinois Events from May 1 to August 31
1,328 total players.
3 close proximity state events. (Ind States, GMO, & Prarie Open)

2010
19 Illinois Events from May 1 to August 31
1,757 players.
9 close proximity state events. (Lemon Lake, IOS #2, GMO, Lemon Lk, Kenosha, Pro Worlds, Grn Br It, Monroy X, Prarie Open)

There are still a crap load of players playing events. I think attendance looks like it's down but it's not. If there were only 6 local Chicagoland events this year they would have all filled to the max and have turned people away just like a few years ago.