Tournaments (PDGA Sanctioned)

[CEValkyrie]

Assume this is a PDGA Sanctioned Event & that 100% payouts are paid using the normal PDGA Payout Tables.


My .02
I've always been one to disagree with players packs unless they are 100% donated by a sponsor. Usually you get some item that you really don't want anyway. Even worse, that item has an inflated cost. If I wanted something from the tourney, i'd just buy a disc that I wanted to throw. If not donated, these players packs are causing the already flatter/lower payouts to the Am Divions to sink even lower. If i'm going to compete & pay a modest entry fee, i'd like to see the payouts standard & not the reduction due to player packs.  

[mirth]

I personally would rather see a players package as part of a B or higher tier. Maybe a large two day C, but not for a single day event. And even then it should only be used as an incentive for preregistration & not a door-prize-in-case-you-don't-finish-in-the-money kinda trinket.


How much do you think those beer cozies cost Joe, Brett?

[Jon Brakel]

I personally would rather see a players package as part of a B or higher tier. Maybe a large two day C, but not for a single day event. And even then it should only be used as an incentive for preregistration & not a door-prize-in-case-you-don't-finish-in-the-money kinda trinket.


How much do you think those beer cozies cost Joe, Brett?

Speaking strictly from my view as a TD, I don't want to encourage pre-registration at all. Its just a headache that I don't need on the day of the event. There are always people who pre-registered who don't show up or don't sign-in and when you are making up the board and cards you don't know what to do with them. If I am ever in the position of offering a pre-reg ONLY tournament, then everything is different because you are only dealing with pre-reg people.

From a player point of view, I have always appreciated stamped minis in a player pack. I have no problem with Gary Lewis' "take a disc from the pile over there---NO, NO, NO, not THAT pile, THIS pile with the miss-stamped discs!" system of player pack. Usually I can find something in there that is worthy of giving away. Other than that, I find player packs to be a drain on the system and often over valued by the people running the tournament.

General observation: Players who like to win stuff when they win usually don't like player packs. Players who don't win often like player packs.

[CEValkyrie]

How much do you think those beer cozies cost Joe, Brett?

I don't think those cost too much & I don't think it affected the payout. That was a small maybe $2.00 to $3.00 item. Just guessing. They gave out small Ice Bowl Bag Tags last year.

The PDGA now requires B-Tiers to provide a $10.00 value player pack & A-Tiers a $25.00 player pack. I'm wondering how the payouts will be affected.  

[Jon Brakel]

How much do you think those beer cozies cost Joe, Brett?

I don't think those cost too much & I don't think it affected the payout. That was a small maybe $2.00 to $3.00 item. Just guessing. They gave out small Ice Bowl Bag Tags last year.

The PDGA now requires B-Tiers to provide a $10.00 value player pack & A-Tiers a $25.00 player pack. I'm wondering how the payouts will be affected.

At most tournaments they will be affected by $10 x # of players and by $25 x # of players.

[Bruce Brakel]

I want to run my Michigan tournaments as B-tiers because Michigan players want points and they want B-tiers.  I can't explain that but it is something I've at least figured out.

I also know that Michigan players don't want player packs.  Even when the player pack was $10 in funny money [in 2001 for the MDGO series] redeemable for anything anytime all season long, Michigan players want the winners to win and the losers to lose.  The notable exceptions would be the rec men, most women and juniors, and some of the amateurs playing up.  

I think I've pretty much decided that for my $10 player pack I'm going to give them a $10 bill!  No one can say it is crap cash that isn't worth $10.  No one can say it is just some scheme to make a little profit on that box of donated Stratuses.  And anyone who wants a $10 disc now has $10 to buy one with.  

I might go a step further and offer them $10 Federal Reserve or $15 Funny and see what happens with that!
--------------

I think Brett's poll really does not make sense unless you look at some numbers.  Suppose you re playing in an intermediate field of 40 players paying $25 each at a well attended B-tier.  [I realize that this is not the suggested PDGA entry fee but it leaves me with numbers I can do in my head]  Which do you want for your payout:

....or   + a disc at registration from that box over there
1  75      45
2  70      42
3  65      39
4  65      39
5  60      36
6  60      36
7  55      33
8  55      33
9  50      30
10 50     30
11 45     27
12 45     27
13 40     24
14 40     24
15 35     21
16 35     21
17 30     18
18 30     18
19 25     15
20 25     15

The two payouts both pay back 100% of the entry fee and both are straight off the PDGA chart.  In the last column everybody got a disc at the start.  

This is what happens every time:  By the end of the day the everyone in the top half of the field has forgotten about that disc he got out of the box over there.  They now look at the payout and join Brett in saying, "WTF?!?"  The guy who wins does not even win double his entry fee, unless he remembers that disc, and then just barely.

[Bruce Brakel]

I think I would add that unlike Brett and more like Jon, as a player I don't have a problem with player packs if it is something I can use or sell and the TD is putting a realistic value on it.  

When the player pack is everyone gets a D-plastic Innova something or other i've never heard of, that's disappointing to me as a player.  And, I can appreciate that many of you feel the same way when the player pack is a Discraft something or other disc you've never heard of!  

When the TD wants to call a $6 wholesale disc a $15 player pack, that's disappointing too.  I know too much to be happy being ripped off that way.

As a player the main thing I want is a fair payout and a little heads up in advance how that payout is going to be distributed.  Then I can make an informed decision about whether I want to play that event and what disvision I want to play in.

[CEValkyrie]

As a player the main thing I want is a fair payout and a little heads up in advance how that payout is going to be distributed.  Then I can make an informed decision about whether I want to play that event and what disvision I want to play in.

You have a good point Bruce. If they advertise the tournament "as is" & I get "as is" them i'm satisfied player pack or not. At that point i've made the decision to play or not.

Thanks for the #'s.  

[jim]

I LOVE players packages.
I HATE high entry fees, unless it is a higher-tiered event (A or .
I think that PRE-REGISTRATION is the not only a good idea, but necessary. How can it be a hinderance or pain-in-the-butt? It has made my life easier......

I think many ideas/opinions above are valid. It really is simply a matter of taste. Some issues are seen differently in different parts of the country. Well, Michiganders are really odd anyway.........  

Suggestion:
Ask an amateur one set of questions.
Ask pros the same set of questions.

The survey that I sent out last year had Amateurs saying they want prizes instead of cash.  The Pros generally thought the Ams should get cash.  Who really can gauge these things?  People are so fickle anyways.........
   

[Jon Brakel]

...I think that PRE-REGISTRATION is the not only a good idea, but necessary. How can it be a hinderance or pain-in-the-butt? It has made my life easier...

For the reason that I stated above. There are always people that don't show up or don't check-in.  

[Bruce Brakel]

I agree with Jim that it is largely a matter of preference and taste.  On the pre-reg issue, the TD should do whatever works for him.  I find partial pre-reg to be one more detail I have to deal with on the morning of the tournament, whereas registration is largely handled by other volunteers named Brakel.  The other downside is that pre-reg players often miss out on the ace pool, cash CTPs, other side games, etc., because they don't go through the line and pick up on that stuff.  As a player I like pre-reg because I want to know that I'm in if I'm driving to Joliet, Boyne Mountain or Homieville.  Serving the players works for me so I take pre-reg but don't push pre-reg.  

I would also agree that Michigan players are different and i think it is because we have so many tournaments.  There are something like 102 tournaments in Michigan this year, not counting the stuff we don't know about, being run by at least 12 different clubs.  By my last count there were at least three other tournaments I don't know about [or I'm not supposed to know about!] so I have to assume there are a few more besides!  That works out to over two tournaments every weekend.  With that many tournaments Michigan players get to see a lot of different ways of running a tournament and they become discriminating customers.

[Bruce Brakel]

I LOVE players packages.
I HATE high entry fees, unless it is a higher-tiered event (A or .

The Kensington and the Flip City MDGO will both have a trophy-only entry fee option.

The regular amateur entry fees are $40 Adv., $30 Int. and $20 others.  The amateur trophy-only entry fee is $20 with a choice of a $15 merch coupon so you can make your own player pack, or a $10 cash rebate.  So for just $10 any amateur can play for points, ratings, and whatever we are doing for trophies.

The pro entry fee is $54 for all pro divisions.  The $4 is split evenly between the MDGO and the PDGA and the $50 goes to the payout.  For Pro divisions other than Pro 2 there is a trophy only option entry fee of $20.  This is mainly to give Saturday players an opportunity to learn from the pros by coming back Sunday, but I'll let pros play trophy-only if they want.  The first trophy-only entry fee, if there is one, will go to Pro rophy costs and the rest will go to their payout.

Flip City is a wonderful private course set on rolling hills with a great variety of long and short holes.  There are cheap motels 20 minutes north or south.  The wife and kids can hit the beach on Lake Michigan while you play.

[CEValkyrie]

The Kensington and the Flip City MDGO will both have a trophy-only entry fee option.


Flip City is a wonderful private course set on rolling hills with a great variety of long and short holes.  There are cheap motels 20 minutes north or south.  The wife and kids can hit the beach on Lake Michigan while you play.

The trophy only option is awesome. For $10.00, that is a great value for a PDGA Event. Wish I could make it both weekends.

Kensington is a good course.

Flip City is da bomb!! This is by far the best course i've played. Very scenic!!
1st course that I 2'd a hole over 400ft. Hole #13
http://www.flipcitygolf.com/course1.htm