PDGA DISCussion Board

[CEValkyrie]

There has been a new feature added to the PDGA DISCussion Board. There is now a chat room you can enter. Brian Schewberger was on there & so was Damon.  

[damonshort]

There has been a new feature added to the PDGA DISCussion Board. There is now a chat room you can enter. Brian Schewberger was on there & so was Damon.

...thus marking the only time that Brian Schweberger and I will ever be mentioned in the same sentence.

Other than this one.

[Jon Brakel]

There has been a new feature added to the PDGA DISCussion Board. There is now a chat room you can enter. Brian Schewberger was on there & so was Damon.

...thus marking the only time that Brian Schweberger and I will ever be mentioned in the same sentence.

Other than this one.

No, I'm going to make it three times that Damon and Brian Schweberger are mentioned in the same sentance.    

[Myk]

4

brian and damon,
sitting on the tee,
D-I-S-C-I-N-G

first comes the drive
then comes mid-range
then their putting in a crazy challenge.

Okay, it's not that great, but it works.

[jim]

brimon
or
damonberger

kinda like a bushquayle

okokok  

[CEValkyrie]

I was chatting with Schweberger & Heeren last night for a few minutes. Chris said he had just found out today that Innova is going to sponsor him.  

[Bruce Brakel]

When I was chatting with Chris Heeren he brought up the Tower Ridge Am Women Rip-off.  I told him he might score some points with the chicks if he went to bat for them and Jen agreed.  Or maybe Jen said it and I agreed.  Anyway, it was nice to see a Wisconsin guy pointing out that Wisconsin TDs rip off their ams rather than having it be some border-crossing Illinois redneck gym teacher.

Funny, once I did the math on the thread, Terry Miller quit responding.  I guess no matter how many $2 and $3 fees you subtract from $172, it is hard to reduce $172 to $32.  Unlike Nick Kight, I cannot find any benign motive behind that when the TD does not say, "Oh man, we forgot to multiply by 4.  I'll send Sarita some stuff to make up for it."  

If Terry did a $25 player pack his math might add up in a PDGA sort of way.  Did he? What did you all get for your $25 player pack?  If you had a wallet full of cash and you were negotiating at my open trunk, how much would you have offered for that bag of stuff?  $25?  My BGO $25 player pack had a towel, a t-shirt, a Champion disc, a mini and miscellaneous small stuff.  I think if you are doing a $25 player pack and $8 off the top for PDGA and Series fees at a B-tier where the informed player is expecting a $10 player pack, you should just put on the flyer,

"No am payout."

[jim]

Bruce, if you worked half as hard at CONSTRUCTIVE criticism, rather than blasting people who do things differently than you, you're ranting would be a lot easier to swallow.

Please remember, each and every person is different. Each club is different. You seem to insist that people accept your idiosynchasies, but you ream out everyone else who tries something different.  You and Terry are PDGA State Reps. If you have a dispute, I think it would be more tactful for the two of you to settle it on the PDGA Board or among yourselves. Slamming someone here becasue they turned you off there is inappropriate.  Just my 2 cents. Thank you.

[mirth]

What rip off?

[mirth]

Nevermind, I found the thread.

[Jon Brakel]

Bruce, if you worked half as hard at CONSTRUCTIVE criticism, rather than blasting people who do things differently than you, you're ranting would be a lot easier to swallow.

Please remember, each and every person is different. Each club is different. You seem to insist that people accept your idiosynchasies, but you ream out everyone else who tries something different.  You and Terry are PDGA State Reps. If you have a dispute, I think it would be more tactful for the two of you to settle it on the PDGA Board or among yourselves. Slamming someone here becasue they turned you off there is inappropriate.  Just my 2 cents. Thank you.

Bruce and I are not as alike as some people believe. We disagree on a lot of things...even stuff that matters. However, one thing that we do agree on is that Ams should not be treated as cash cows in general. Specifically we think that if the money that the Ams are paying in is not going back to them, then this should be spelled out clearly in a flyer. There is plenty of money available in a well run tournament to pay for fees and other expenses. I think if a TD is taking more money off the top, the bottom or the middle, then he or she should be upfront about.

People seem to get bent out of shape when Bruce starts talking about specific numbers from specific tournaments. But the only way to break it down and figure what is fair is to look at the specific numbers. I don't think its an attack. Its an open forum for discussion to figure out what is fair, what Ams want from a tournament and what they liked or were dissapointed by in past tournaments.

I'm ok if a TD wants to run a tournament for personal profit. I'm ok if a TD wants to run a tournament for the benefit of their club or course. I'm ok if a TD wants to run a tournament in order to send the Waterford Jr. Girls to Worlds. BUT, when I attend a tournament I want to know where that money is going. When I attended Tom Christiansen tournaments I knew that money was going to Tom. No problem with me. But when I discovered Gary Lewis' tournaments, I started attending those because I knew some of the money was going to the PDGA and some was going to the local club and courses.

It is a step in the right direction that the PDGA has gotten more strict with minimum payout amounts and player's packages. However, it still leaves TDs open to value their player's packs and prizes at a higher value than the player does. By reading the PDGA forum, a bunch of us now know that most players do not value a D Stratus as a $10 value. If a TD is interested in returning reasonable value to their players, then they can learn what people want out of a tournament using these forums.

I think that is at least my 5 cents worth.    

[airspuds]

what rip off  ?

[mirth]

Do a search of "Tower Ridge" and you'll find it quickly enough... just include the quotes.

[Bruce Brakel]

blasting people who do things differently than you

I suppose it would be somewhat hypocritical to blast people doing the same things as me so that only leaves blasting people doing different things.    If you are saying that I'm blasting them only because they are different then please feel blasted for being an idiot.  Please note that that was a conditional blasting; if I am misunderstanding you I'll step in front of that blast and take it all on me.

I think if you care about PDGA disc golf then the issues raised by the No Foolin thread are important.   Do you think its right to run amateur disc golf for the benefit of the pros?  Brett, is that the way your high school baseball program works?  Do you guys charge your players $43 per game, deduct for expenses and then shift half what remains to the Cubs and White Sox?  Is that how they do it in Pony League or American Legion baseball?  It is the pressure to add cash from the ams to the pros that motivates TDs to run rip-off formats where they nickle and dime the Ams for $2 and $3 fees.

That practice is simply looney compared to any legitimate sport and it holds our sport back from getting any credence as a legitimate sport.  Whenever I explain that to anyone outside our sport they say, "And the ams put up with that?" and I say, "Well, they smoke a lot of dope.  I'm not sure how many of them are even aware of this."

On this thread I was mostly asking questions.  I thought some of you said you were going to this event.  I was hoping maybe someone could supply the missing facts supporting paying back $32 on $172 in entry fees.  I'd like to hear it.  The TD has not offered any math justifying what he is doing.  What the lone defender posted on PDGA.com is that the players got a $25 Discraft disc.  I did not know there WAS a $25 Discraft disc!  Then someone else came on and said that was a misinterpretation and I was twisting his words.  I thought I had quoted him.  

I showed how a TD can pay all those $2 and $3 fees without taking it out of the am payout and the response went something like this:
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
Which is the response I usually get from people who fully believe in milking the ams but are a little bit uncomfortable being outed.  You give them some irrefutable facts and they just slink away.  They know that the vast majority of am disc golfers are easy marks and will be back next year.  

Let me tell you something else:  I really do not enjoy being the one who has to expose this kind of stuff.  It makes my life more stressful.  It does not make me more popular and it does not make me any money.  If someone else want to volunteer to be the tireless gadfly to those who see ams and hear, "Mooooo," I'll gladly give you my cape, utility belt and invisible airplane.

[CEValkyrie]

Let me tell you something else:  I really do not enjoy being the one who has to expose this kind of stuff.  It makes my life more stressful.  It does not make me more popular and it does not make me any money.  If someone else want to volunteer to be the tireless gadfly to those who see ams and hear, "Mooooo," I'll gladly give you my cape, utility belt and invisible airplane.

Bruce,
    I appreciate what you do for me. Being an Am, I support your efforts 100%. I too took some heat for some posts last summer on the PDGA board about payouts. It is not fun. Everyone calls you a greedy Am.  

The one thing i've learned,

TD's, advertise fully what you are doing.
If you are making money for yourself, advertise it.
If you are making money for you club, advertise it.
If you are making money for course improvement, advertise it.
If your merchandise is overpriced, advertise it.
If you are giving D-Strati as player packs and calling them $10.00 discs, advertise it.
If you are going to pay back $32.00 of $172.00 entry fee, advertise it.


If I play the tournament and know that ahead of time, I won't say a word.  

[jim]

Nobody wants to talk to Bruce (oh, you mean 'get preached to in a dictatorial and judgmental manner')?
Gee.........

/Quote/
That practice is SIMPLY LOONEY compared to any legitimate sport and it holds our sport back from getting any credence as a legitimate sport. Whenever I explain that to ANYONE outside our sport they say, "And the ams put up with that?" and I say, "Well, they smoke a lot of dope. I'm not sure how many of them are even aware of this."/EndQuote/

[Jon Brakel]

I can see how focusing in on that quote might make you a bit defensive or offended, Jim. But I think focusing only in on that makes it easy to miss the point.

The point is really "Do Ams want to pay the pros for the priveledge of playing in a disc golf tournament?" I think the answer to that question is no and at any of the tournaments that I am running or involved with the Ams will NOT be paying the pros.

If any pros are out there, I am not slighting the pros either. We are still paying back the pros 100% of their entry fee.

This is actually the path toward the growth of the sport and the possible creation of a real professional division. The people who watch bowling on TV are bowlers. The people who watch ball golf on TV are ball golfers. The people who will watch disc golf on TV are disc golfers. How do we get spectators for disc golf? We grow them! Growing amateur disc golf is how professional disc golf is going to grow. It won't grow by taking $10 from every amateur and giving it to the pro division or to the pros at the next big event.

[jim]

This sport will grow, no doubt. But you cannot force everyone to play the Brakel Way. THAT was my point.  Blasting someone here (who does not read this board and cannot defend himself) is not professional or courteous. That, too, was my point.

You and Bruce write so condescendingly and subtley try to redirect others' posts, and you both missed my point.  I said nothing about how money/prizes are awarded or about TD disclosure.  But that's what your direct response to me was focused on.

Let me make it very clear.
I am sick of Bruce's didactic and judgmental soapbox preaching all the time. Yep, the Brakels do some good things for disc golf (as I have said numerous times). But the irritating, blaming, conceited, circumventing manner in which you sometimes try to bring about change is unhealthy. And it is NOT behavior a PDGA State Rep should display.

[Jon Brakel]

I can appreciate your point, I was just trying to direct the discussion toward more positive talk rather than focusing on the negative issues.

There is no "Brakel Way" as I have said before, Bruce and I differ on many issues. To lump us together just because we have the same parents is kind of limiting.

I have no desire to force anyone to do anything. I'd like players to be educated so that they may make the decision that is right for them. I think that the way that Bruce, Brett and I run our tournaments is appealing to both the amateurs and the pros. They can let us know by playing this summer.

[Jon Brakel]

I am trying not to get in an unconstructive argument with you Jim, because I tire of those. I'm trying to understand your perspective. Sometimes I feel like you misinterpret Bruce's conviction for something else. I don't think Bruce wants to change the disc golf world like a dictator, but I do think that he has a conviction for what is good for disc golf.

The PDGA forum on our DISCussion board was created to discuss PDGA issues and related information. This is so that the Discontinuum people can discuss these issues and find out what people right here think. The No Foolin' and Tower Ridge discussion were PDGA Discussion topics started by other players (unrelated to any of the Brakels).

I can't speak for anyone else, but if I have players from Peoria play the IO series, I would not be upset if they posted about it and used my name on the PFC board. By being a TD I realize that I have put myself out for judgement and I know that often I will not hear directly about that judgement.