Ratings

[ochreogre]

Surprised to see my rating firmly stuck in the Red range.   I was expecting to drop down into the 775 range.  Hate to see the way I've played at the last 4 events get rewarded.  What a mess.  

I'll be even more excited when my DFL at the Blast gets added (or is that  deducted?) to my rating so it plummets to an even 850.  *joy*  Is there anything better than going to a course you've played dozens if not hundreds of times and shooting 15 strokes over par?       Was it the OB?  Nope, only hit the rope once on one hole.  Water?  Nope, stayed dry.  Trees?  Not really, one tree.  Was it...me?  You betcha.  I stunk that course up!  

I worked it out, and I think Chris Heenen's score from Sunday beat my DFL on Saturday by 42 strokes.  Wow.  I know he's a pro and all, with a 1000+ plus rating, but a 42 stroke difference?  Ouch.  Is it 5 points = 1 stroke or 10 points that equals a stroke?  Either way...ouch.  

But at least I'll have my best finish to date from Parkside added in, so that will balance out my DFL.  Oh wait...crap.  No it won't.  D'oh...  

Sure am looking forward to Widdershins!  Hopefully I can find where-ever I left my game before then...

[mirth]

Its 1 stroke = 10 points, steve.....

[Dan Michler]

actually 1 stroke at bevier will be worth more than 10 points since the SSA will be less than 54. (its an under par course)

[Dan Michler]

i can't wait for the next update     then last year's blast will be outside my 12 month window and those rounds will be dropped.  if i don't play at all until then (actually i'm playing at least 3 tourneys) i will go over 930.  i just wish the results from sinnissippi (July 4!) would get turned in.  what the heck.  that was probably my highest rated tournament of the year and of course thats the one that won't get turned in by the TD     i need every point i can get to catch up with comincioli who is frickin 16 points ahead of me now!!!!!!!!!!!  

i'll catch back up dude        

[Brian]

I just wanted to say that I'm really let down by the PDGA and the rating system.   I play tournaments so that they will affect my rating.  However, both Tower Ridge and Parkside do not factor into my rating because not enough rated people played the course set up that I did.  I would have liked to known that before I wasted $60+ on the entry fees.  It's not like these tournaments were a low tier, both events were Wisconsin Tour events.  

One other thing about the rating system, people don't adhere to it and most TDs don't enforce it.  It should be uniform through out all sanctioned tournaments, that TDs either use the ratings to dictate your lowest division or not have them factor in at all.  This would eliminate surprises when signing in at a tournament.  

If we had more organization at the top, the PDGA would become a more respectable organization and not stereotyped as pot smoking hippies.  Instead of wasting money last year on the advertising firm, they should have contracted a computer programmer and devised program that allowed for your rating to be updated once the TDs entered the results in to the system.  This would make things a lot easier for the volunteers that now have to put in extra time to do all the rating and tournament updates.  Furthermore these volunteers could have more time to focus on the development of the game and guiding the future of the PDGA.  

Now I know that whoever reads this is probably going to say, that I should get involved more with the PDGA.  To which I will reply, I am not the person who decided to volunteer and run for positions.  These people knew what the position would entail and should not have run if they could not fulfill the job.

Anyway, thanks for letting me rant, I feel much better now.

[Brian]

The rant that I had is not because of this update and my drop in ratings, I knew that the drop was coming and that I am the only one to blame for my crappy play.  I've had these issues since last update when my tournaments did not count on my rating.  

[CEValkyrie]

Brian,
   I totally understand how you feel. I'm battling trying to get the Saturday event at Bevier rated for the PDGA members. The weren't enough propegators but Sunday weather conditions were identical so it could work. I wish we had done the Blast 1 day but no one can predict how many players will show. Had 91 players showed, 1 would have been turned away. I totally agree, I have no clue why they can't have the ratings updated immediately  when entered into the computer.  

[Dan Michler]

i would agree with brian.  i think that they should find a way to rate everyone who plays in a sanctioned event and has paid their PDGA dues.  a rating is supposed to be one of the privileges that comes with getting a membership.  i know its frustrating to me to play in a tournament that never has its results turned in.  i can imagine being much more frustrated if the results were turned in but did not count. just cuz u don't play advanced or pro doesn't mean u aren't entitled to the same privileges once u have paid ur money.

i definitely agree with the idea that the ratings updates need to be automatic also.  the current system seems ridiculous.  i think this is something that will inevitably happen, hopefully sooner rather than later.

also, what action does the PDGA take if a TD fails to turn in a TD report?  i'm sure bruce and jon know    

[CEValkyrie]

One other thing about the rating system, people don't adhere to it and most TDs don't enforce it.  It should be uniform through out all sanctioned tournaments, that TDs either use the ratings to dictate your lowest division or not have them factor in at all.  This would eliminate surprises when signing in at a tournament.  

Brian,
    At our tournament this year we had posted what ratings could play what divisions & we check every players rating to make sure players are playing in the correct division or higher. We did not have any problems with players trying to cheat the system.  

[CEValkyrie]

also, what action does the PDGA take if a TD fails to turn in a TD report?  i'm sure bruce and jon know  

I just read some recent discussion on the PDGA Board about this. Sounds like they downgrade the tournament for the next year or don't allow it at all.

Also, I don't know this for a fact but I think some TD was suspended this year from running PDGA events. He however has another person that has signed up to take over these events & he still runs them.  

[kyle]

Brian,
   I totally understand how you feel. I'm battling trying to get the Saturday event at Bevier rated for the PDGA members. The weren't enough propegators but Sunday weather conditions were identical so it could work. I wish we had done the Blast 1 day but no one can predict how many players will show. Had 91 players showed, 1 would have been turned away. I totally agree, I have no clue why they can't have the ratings updated immediately  when entered into the computer.

I got my 10 rated rounds in this summer, so I should count as a propegator now.
At least I met that goal.

[Dan Michler]

thats propagator, not propegator.  i just want to stop the propagation of this propegation error originated by CE Valk.

i called in sick today.

[Brian]

It's good to hear that people agree with me.  I think that more events should be ratings based, if the system can become more up to date.  This way it will keep people with a 927 rating out of intermediate and in advanced where they should play, I'm sure that there are other examples that everyone knows of.

 

[damonshort]

Brian, I completely agree with your sentiments, but your concerns should be addressed to the PDGA, not organizers like at Parkside and the IOS/Discontinuum. There's a hole in the system - by playing (and paying for) a sanctioned tournament you should be *guaranteed* rated rounds (for better or worse   ), but the system is controlled by the PDGA; the organizers are doing the sanctioning in "good faith".

I know that these concerns have been addressed to the "Central Scrutinizers" (quick, somebody identify that reference); what progress has been made, someone else would have to say.

[Jon Brakel]

Brian,

I understand your frustration as I have been frustrated with the ratings system as well at times. There are several situations that contribute to this problem.

1) Many events do not run their Rec/Am days sanctioned. Many events will get enough ratings propagators but because they are not sanctioned they don't count. This has an affect on some of the lower turn-out events that are sanctioned. Because these other popular events are not contributing to making Rec/Ams propagators, there aren't enough propagators in the Rec/Am fields at the lower turn-out events. My only suggestion here is that if you are a Rec/Am rated player, don't play the events that are unsanctioned for your ratings appropriate division.

2) Some events do not have all divisions playing on the same tees at the same time. You should talk to the TD about the tee configurations. If you have a chance ahead of time, ask the TD before the tournament. If he/she hasn't made score cards yet he might be willing to run everyone on the same tees so that there is a better chance everyone will get rated.

3) TDs that know they are going to have a problem getting their tournament rated, need to talk to the PDGA. Sometimes they will use the propagators that are available. Sometimes they can use the upper division day to get the numbers. Events that don't have enough propagators will be automatically NOT included in the ratings unless the TD takes proactive action to get them included.

I do not think that every PDGA member who plays a PDGA event should get a rating without exception. The minimum number of propagators is pretty much at the edge of mathmatically significant numbers to make a rating that means anything. A rating based on 4 or 5 propagators is likely to mean almost nothing mathmatically. In order to keep the ratings significant it is important that only valid ratings are included in the process.

While rating a round with just a few propagators, or no propagators at all, will give you valid ratings of how those players played that day compared to each other (basically what I did with the safari events in 2003), it will not give you ratings that are valid compared to people who did not play the event. You need the propagators to tie in the rest of the players to the rest of the disc golf world.

Brian,

Please keep in mind that we are still in the early stages of the ratings system and every event that is rated is making more propagators. The more propagators that are made, the more events that will be able to be rated automatically in the future. TDs are also still learning about how ratings work and when their events will get rated. Many TDs are still not educated about how their tee choices effect ratings. Many TDs still think that their Rec/Am players don't care about PDGA sanctioning and ratings.

These are some of the obsticles in the way of rating all PDGA events.

[damonshort]

Jon & I have discussed this before...

...every event that is rated is making more propagators. The more propagators that are made, the more events that will be able to be rated automatically in the future.

But if there aren't enough propagators, the event or round isn't rated, even if it's sanctioned, and the non-propagators are no closer to propagatoriosity than they were before the sanctioned event. There's neither a chicken nor an egg here.

That's why I think that having any "gators" at all in the pool should be sufficient to get rounds rated; even if they're inaccurate they'll drop out of a player's history eventually.

... My only suggestion here is that if you are a Rec/Am rated player, don't play the events that are unsanctioned for your ratings appropriate division.

the spirit of the 'boycott' is fine, and in the reeeeal long term this would solve the problem, but I can understand where there'd not be a lot of incentive, given that you may not get rated even if you do play a sanctioned tournament unless some of this stuff gets fixed.

If you really want a rating, I'd say the most reliable way is to donate to a few Advanced pools unless you find that rare tournament where all divisions are playing on the same day. Seems a bit expensive, although theoretically it will improve your game...

[CEValkyrie]

I think the PDGA needs to find a way to make it work. They have paid members that want ratings. Boycotting events does no one good. Had I been in running the Blast from the beginning, I would probably go back & do it as a 1 day so everyone was assured a rating for the event.

[Dan Michler]

i agree.  even if there aren't enuf propogators, the PDGA has to find a way to come up with some sort of rating for a player who has payed his dues.   it may not be an exactly accurate rating, but it will be better than nothing.  i feel it is their responsibility, not the TD's or the player's.

[Jon Brakel]

But if there aren't enough propagators, the event or round isn't rated, even if it's sanctioned, and the non-propagators are no closer to propagatoriosity than they were before the sanctioned event. There's neither a chicken nor an egg here.

It's not that there aren't enough propagators anywhere. They just aren't at all tournaments on all days. There are plenty of saturday tournaments where there are enough 'gators. Given that we are still fairly early in the ratings process 'gators in some divisions are still being developed. That process isn't instantaneous, but will in time, take care of itself.  

[Jon Brakel]

i agree.  even if there aren't enuf propogators, the PDGA has to find a way to come up with some sort of rating for a player who has payed his dues.   it may not be an exactly accurate rating, but it will be better than nothing.  i feel it is their responsibility, not the TD's or the player's.

I disagree. If the current ratings system gives us a rating that is plus or minus 5 ratings points (my guess), then would you want a system that gives a rating that is plus or minus 50 ratings points? We would then have a ratings system that is absolutely meaningless.

I have not run the statistical analysis necessary but I'm guessing that our current ratings system is accurate to within 5 ratings points. It might be more accurate than that. The more non-'gators you allow to be temporary 'gators the less accurate the rating becomes. The ratings system already gets flack from some people who don't think it is accurate enough.

Since the course SSA plan became unmanageable given the number of volunteer man hours that the ratings project has at it's disposal, the only course of action is to continue to use the propagators to generate ratings.

If you have a plan that would be accurate, make more tournaments rateable and can be implemented by the available volunteer staff, then you should submit it to the PDGA or to Chuck Kennedy. It is fine to think that PDGA members deserve to get a rating for every event, but we can't just snap our fingers and make it happen. People who know more about statistics than I do have figured out this rating system. If someone out there knows more or has better ideas, step up...we need you!