The Michigan Gambling Document

[Bruce Brakel]

I'm posting my layman's brief on Michigan gaming law and the PDGA format here.  This is not really a topic of interest to Northeast Illinois Disc Golfers.  I'm posting this here because I can't figure out how to attach documents at pdga.com.  

I have promised a number of people that I'd get this written up explaining what the problem is and the process that has led me to the point where I can't run payout events in Michigan anymore.  Many of these people I'll see face to face if they want to discuss the issue, and I'm not really planning on starting some kind of fierce debate here or over at pdga.com.  

I'm kind of going through the five stages of loss right now over the decisions that this is leading to.

[damonshort]

I'm posting my layman's brief on Michigan gaming law and the PDGA format here.  This is not really a topic of interest to Northeast Illinois Disc Golfers.  I'm posting this here because I can't figure out how to attach documents at pdga.com.

I'm not a lawyer (no comment   ), but it looks like Illinois is safe...(sec 28-1  b.2)...
Illinois Compiled Statutes

...although I'd still rather play trophy-only, given a choice.  

- edited cause I put () around 'B.2' in the reference and it turned into a smilie...

[mirth]

Ahh... the ILCS. My reference material for writing bylaws.

[Bruce Brakel]

Yeah, we looked into that last year about this time.  Illinois is good.  

The known bad states include California, Florida, South Carolina and sometimes Arizona.  Known good states include Illinois and Texas.  

[CEValkyrie]

Ahh... the ILCS. My reference material for writing bylaws.

So that is what you used in the conspiracy to take over DISContinuum.  

[Chainmeister]

Bruce,

Have you considered speaking with a Michigan legislator?  It seems that a disc golf torunament (with its gigantic payouts! ) is not the type of activity that the good people of Michigan intended to forbid.  I agree with your colleagues that you appear to have been caught in the same net as the sharks.  I am not so naive to think that you will get anywhere.  However, it seems that its worth a try to set a meeting with your local rep, especially if your boss would come with you, to see if an exception for disc golf could be drafted.  I would suspect that you could get PDGA to assist you as well, at least as far as getting a letter explaining how it works.

Amusing side note- I am sitting in a Panera with my laptop and tried to hit the link for the ILCS and cannot get there because "gambling" is prohibited.  I guess the ILCS section on gambling is just as verboten as porn.  The bagel was worth the censorship. I will check the link when I get to my office tomorrow or home tonight. I am an attorney as well.

[Bruce Brakel]

We tried the legislative route last year and got a bill introduced which was then rewritten in such a way as to be totally useless and so I quit pushing the issue.  At that time the fact that I was up to my armpits in promoting and running illegal events kind of made it hard for me to be the poster child for decriminalization.

It is clear to me that what we are doing is what the legislature intended to prohibit.  If you look at the original and early exceptions they all involve what is literally nickle and dime level gambling.  Old folks playing rummy for less than $5 per game, Skeeball with prizes that do not exceed $3.75 per game, etc.  I'm talking without rereading, but the original and older exceptions all seemed to be for inconsequential levels of wagering.

And, anymore, I'm not certain whether I want our format legalized here.  I think the high stakes gambling format [for me, $40 is high stakes.  I realize it is not Poker Worlds high stakes] leads to a degradation in sportsmanship and comradery.  I want to try complying with the law, while winking at whatever Millz or Ellis might have going, and see how that works.

[mirth]

so what, you're going tropy only in 2005?

[Bruce Brakel]

so what, you're going tropy only in 2005?

Michigan is going entropy-only: it is going to keep getting less organized.  [A physics joke for all our physicians in the audience.]  I'm either going trophy-only or atrophy-only.  If the Tag Finals is a bust using the trophy-only format, I'll only run the Sturgeon.  If it catches on, I'll run several one-day True Am events.

I'll tell you more about this next weekend.

[damonshort]

I'll tell you more about this next weekend.

Bruce, I was going to bump my earlier post from another thread, but -

are you bringing the 150 z-plastic (z-talon, to be exact)?

[Bruce Brakel]

I'll tell you more about this next weekend.

Bruce, I was going to bump my earlier post from another thread, but -

are you bringing the 150 z-plastic (z-talon, to be exact)?

What: are you from Texas?  Hey, Billy-Bob, you gonna be at the Z-ten?  Oh, is this thread about women disc golfers from Maryland?  Well, not anymore!  

I'm not doing a tournament stamp order pick-up between now and then, but I could do a small order of demand items at somewhat more expensive prices.  Like 15 funny or 12 real.

Are there any men not reading this thread because this is not an equipment thread who might want normal weight Flicks?  Any women and children looking for the 150 Flick?  Kelsey is whipping that sucker a long ways for Kelsey, 210 uphill at league today and 240 flat at practice last week.  Not sure whether it is the magic disc or what, but in regular weights it is supposed to be +2 overstable.

[damonshort]

..the 150 ztalon I gave you the $15 funny for...    

[Bruce Brakel]

Update:  I'm currently not planning on running anything in Michigan in 2005.  I could see doing the Sturgeon somewhere but there are already 110 tournaments in this state in 2005.  We've got six[?] events in the IOS and maybe a seventh event outside the IOS, so I don't need to run any tournies here.  

I'm working my way through the states.  Michigan is totally surrounded by "good" states.  The only new bad state to pop up is Louisianna, which is bad only if the tournament is being run for a profit.  But if five people are involved in making that profit, it is elevated to a felony.  

[Chainmeister]

I guess if you play for anything more than crawfish thay just might be cajun you.    

[mirth]

^bump, cuz I think this is an important thread for people to be aware of.

[BBisInit4Himself]

It seems that yet another "avgjoe@earthlink.net" anonymous e-mail has been sent to another Park Director in Michigan.

This is really getting old.

Bruce, if you love disc golf so much why does this discussion continue?

If being legal in Michigan is so important to you why have you been spotted in Michigan parks with your trunk open and discs available 4 sale?

When replying to "avgjoe@earthlink.net" the e-mail comes back undeliverable.

That is odd since the last half-truth e-mail was sent just this past Tuesday.

Section 301 of Michigan gaming laws is only a part of the "300" series of gaming laws.

Why does the letter only focus on part of the law and not on any of the amendments that followed for many years after?

Are there hidden agenda's out there to drive Michigan tournament players out of state so bordering states like Indiana and Illinois will benefit?

Do you know any disc golf promoters in these states?

This is a nice precedent you are setting for you and your family.

I was under the impression that in your position you should be helping Michigan Disc Golf.

This situation really does no one any good.

I'm not trying to be antagonistic but I am not the person who brought others into this and then kept it going longer than it should have.

There is a better way to handle this situation but these anonymous e-mails over the past two years or so are simply not the way.

Disc Golf is a great game and has plenty to offer from children 5 years old and up to many seniors who simply like the exercise and outdoors.

I do not know any disc golf tournament director living in a mansion because they got rich from hosting an event that is considered a "game of skill" and not a "game of chance" like Section 301 states.

"avgjoe@earthlink.net" does not speak the entire truth but only leads people pointing in a direction that "avgjoe@earthlink.net" wants them to.

These scare tacticts e-mails that are not entirely factual should be considered illegal.

I wonder if they are?

I will look that up as well, when I get a free minute.

A person like "avgjoe@earthlink.net" should have a government job or maybe even be an attorney.

Hmmmmm, do I know something I shouldn't?

[Bruce Brakel]

When I was selling discs at Firefighters I had no idea Troy had a city ordinance making it illegal to sell stuff.  I guess its the Peoples' Republic of Troy.  But thank you for calling the police so that I could be informed.  

I have no idea who you are but the police officer told me that your problem was that I was selling too cheap.  Yeah, in it for myself.  

[BBisInit4Himself]

You can be sure that it was not I who called the police.  This I am sure of.

I would not contact the authorities when someone is doing little to no harm concerning disc golf.  Selling a couple of discs is not a bad thing, in my opinion.  But we do need to work within the communities boundaries.  And yes, Troy has some tough bylaws but so do other cities.

The jist of my comments was to bring up the fact that when someone continues to crusade on what is legal or what is illegal in the state of Michigan concerning disc golf, you would have known that what you did in Troy was illegal.  I guess you can plead ignorance on the laws all you want until you are called on them.  You never heard that selling discs out of your car in public parks is illegal before?  Strange.

It also seems kind of funny that you would be way over in Troy, doing something illegal,  the same time a course on that side of the state gets notified of the gaming laws by the infamous and anonymous "avgjoe@earthlink.net".

We would like the casual disc golfers who take it upon themselves to vandalize and destroy our courses  to do the same as I ask of you:  Please act responsibly when you think you need to "act in the best interest" of disc golf in the state of Michigan or anywhere for that matter.  What is wrong with having a little dignity?

Many people in this state do not appreciate the fact that "avgjoe@earthlink.net" has taken it upon himself to act as judge and jury on what is or what is not legal.

Do the research, hire an attorney who is better at interpretations, and tell the entire law, just not one section of it, if you still feel you need to tell anyone at all.

I can respect a person much much more if confronted with the entire truth instead of a partial truth because you are scorn for whatever reason that motivates you.

People can believe what is written if it is not far from the truth.  Just as simple as it is to write this about disc golf, things can be written about an individual as well.

As a writer it is up to us to communicate what is important.  To me that means communicating not just part of the truth to serve your purpose but the entire truth to serve everyone's purpose.

Besides avgjoe@earthlink.net, there is another anonymous e-mailer named  noreplyrequired@aol.com.  Just like avgjoe, you cannot send e-mails to these accounts.  Stopping short of what I personally feel about the people who set up these accounts to do harm I will keep my feelings to myself.

Like I said earlier, when I get a few minutes I will spend the few hundred dollars out of my pocket and get to the bottom of who really set these accounts up.  When I find their names I will do my best to make sure the PDGA message board  and all the players in Michigan knows who he / she really is.  The fall out of knowing should be interesting to watch from afar.

Do you see how these anonymous e-mails are no good?

[Bruce Brakel]

This is avg_joe:  http://www.pdga.com/msgboard/showprofile.p...=&fpart=19&vc=1

This is avg_joe writing to the governors office to explain to her why disc golf is illegal:  http://www.pdga.com/msgboard/showflat.php?...=&fpart=19&vc=1

If you read avg_joe's posts it is clear that he has read my posts on this topic.  He is not me.  In a subsequent post he talks about throwing another brick on the pile, and not caring what anyone might think about what he is doing.  

I don't know who this guy is.  This is what I know.  I was telling several of the players at the Kensington Clean-Up Day about you or your boys calling the police on me for undercutting your prices.  Two or three laughed and said, "What goes around comes around."  [And what is up with running tournaments at Kensington but not showing up for the clean up day anyway?]

After my encounter with the police I read up on Troy ordinances.  You can find them on the internet if you google "Troy Michigan Ordinances."  It is just as illegal to peddle discs in the parking lot on a Tuesday evening as it is to peddle discs in the pavillion on the Saturday of a tournament.  Check it out.  Chapter 74.  http://www.ci.troy.mi.us/CodeAndCharter/CodeTOC.pdf  It is a $500 fine if you don't know how to talk your way out of those kinds of things.

If you want to draw me into your self-defeating pissing contest, just keep it up.  

You are encouraging people to call the police with your posts on your website.  Maybe someone misunderstood what you meant.  Maybe you should explain that since you want to peddle discs in the park, they should not be calling the police on other disc peddlers.

[damonshort]

Do you see how these anonymous e-mails are no good?

Do you have any sense of irony?