Out of Bounds

[DougEDawg]

"A player whose disc is considered out-of-bounds shall receive one penalty throw. The player may elect to play the next shot from: (1) The previous lie as evidenced by the marker disc or, if the marker disc has been moved from an approximate lie, as agreed to by the majority of the group or an official; or (2) A lie that is up to one meter away from and perpendicular to the point where the disc last crossed into out-of-bounds, as determined by a majority of the group or an official. This holds true even if the direction takes the lie closer to the hole; or (3) Within the designated Drop Zone, if provided. These options may be limited by the tournament director as a special condition (see 804.01)".

Above is the PDGA out of bounds rule.  Does this mean that if I tee off and my disc goes out of bounds (my disc never touched anything inbounds during it's flight), I can bring it one meter from the last point, determined by my group or an official, it was inbounds?  I seem to remember Bruce stating at the Bev Blast 2004 (on the last hole) that my only option would be to tee off again with a penalty stroke.  In either case, I would be throwing three after the penalty, but I would be much closer if I could use the mark determined by the point it was last inbounds.

Just curious for 2005 tournaments.

[Bruce Brakel]

Those are your options.  I do not recall saying that.  With all the wind I might have misunderstood your question and replied with a nonsequitur.  Or was all the wind a different tournament?  What was our last hole?  If you went ob on that short hole next to #1 immediately left off the tee on a lefty hyzer or righty forehand, last in bounds and re-teeing would be the same thing.

[DougEDawg]

The last hole was the one that o. b. was roped off.  It was the hole that was adjacent to hole one.  I did throw it so that the disc went over the o. b. line and and stayed o. b. upon it's landing.  Is the ruling where it last "touched" inbounds (which would be my hand on the tee pad), or where the disc crossed over the o. b. line.

In short, I'm trying to figure out why the disc wouldn't be spotted where it crossed over o. b.  If that is the case, then I'd be lying 2 and throwing from about 20 feet away as opposed to lying 2 and re-teeing.

[Jon Brakel]

The last hole was the one that o. b. was roped off.  It was the hole that was adjacent to hole one.  I did throw it so that the disc went over the o. b. line and and stayed o. b. upon it's landing.  Is the ruling where it last "touched" inbounds (which would be my hand on the tee pad), or where the disc crossed over the o. b. line.

In short, I'm trying to figure out why the disc wouldn't be spotted where it crossed over o. b.  If that is the case, then I'd be lying 2 and throwing from about 20 feet away as opposed to lying 2 and re-teeing.

It sounds to me like you are saying that it never was inbounds. It crossed over to out of bounds directly off the tee, right? That was the hole with the OB line that came up to the tee on the left. So, if you threw out that side and it never came back then the place where it crossed into OB was at the tee.

OB has a vertical line, it isn't just the ground. IF your disc was traveling thru OB air space the whole way and lands OB, then you would take your next shot from the tee pad. "Where it last crossed OB" is the same as saying "Where it was last in bounds".

[CEValkyrie]

Doug is talking about Hole F just north of the parking lot. It had rope around the left sied of the fairway, wrapped around & and along Yourkhouse road to the entrance road. On and over the entrance road was OB as well. Shawn's yellow Discatcher was the temp basket.

I'm assuming Doug threw a forehand on the shot. The disc immediately crossed the OB to the left and never came back. Since the disc never crossed back in bounds, you should have either played 1 meter off the OB line where it crossed out or ReTeed. That is how it was supposed to be played correctly.

Your group was very friendly and gave you a good spot or weren't aware of the correct rule . I think everyone learned from that situation and it worked out good for Doug. Did you take a circle 4 on that hole doug?

[Bruce Brakel]

I think Doug and Brett are talking about Hole I.  

I do know the out-of-bounds options and I know that I knew them at the time.  I would have told anyone who asked a clear question that if they went over the out of bounds area immediately off the tee, landed out of bounds, and never flew over any in bounds area, they are re-teeing throwing three.  If they were in bounds somewhere forward of the tee, they would have the option of reteeing throwing three or throwing three from where it was last in bounds, whichever they preferred.

If Doug asked me about this after the fact, like after the round was complete, and told me that the player reteed, I probably would have said that that was fine so long as he took a stroke for the o.b.

Like 99% of what happened longer ago than 15 minutes ago, I really have no recollection of this.  All I remember of the Blast is one long drive, some yellow rope, and Brett's temporary holes.  I know I was there Saturday, but nothing memorable happened in my life Saturday.

[Bruce Brakel]

For those who don't know me, I have memory impairment due to fever related brain damage.  This is funny:

I remember driving home from a tournament telling Kelsey, "You have to remember this day because six months from now it will be completely gone from my memory."  I have no idea what day that was!

I don't know whether to laugh or cry.

I'll ask Kelsey at lunch what it was she was suppose to remember.

[DougEDawg]

Bruce,

Your call was fine.  It's just that since then, I had a hard time understanding the rule.  Now I think I finally do.  Correct me if I'm wrong.  My interpretation is that if a disc is teed-off directly into out-of-bounds territory without huvering over in-bounds territory, then it must be re-teed (throwing 3).  If a disc is teed-off, huvers over in-bounds territory and then goes out-of-bounds, then it is either re-teed or thrown 1 meter from where it last crossed out-of-bounds (both cases throwing 3).  Is the re-tee always an option with the latter scenario, or is that at the TD's discression?  Touching in-bounds doesn't mean I have to touch the ground,tree, bush etc., right?  It means flying over the space that is in-bounds, right?  In other words, I can fly over inbounds (without touching anything inbounds), then land out-of-bounds after which I can mark my lye where the disc last crossed out-of-bounds.

In any event, Brett is right.  I caught a good a break as a result of my group not fully understanding the rules.  I bogeyed that hole.  I would have most likely double bogeyed it if I had to re-tee.

By the way, in that same tournament and on an earlier hole, Bruce made a great call when he determined that my disc was in-bounds.  It was in the pond and barely resting on the edge of dry land.  I took my one meter and parred the hole!

[Bruce Brakel]

My interpretation is that if a disc is teed-off directly into out-of-bounds territory without hovering over in-bounds territory, then it must be re-teed (throwing 3).  If a disc is teed-off, hovers over in-bounds territory and then goes out-of-bounds, then it is either re-teed or thrown 1 meter from where it last crossed out-of-bounds (both cases throwing 3).  Is the re-tee always an option with the latter scenario, or is that at the TD's discression?  Touching in-bounds doesn't mean I have to touch the ground,tree, bush etc., right?  It means flying over the space that is in-bounds, right?  In other words, I can fly over inbounds (without touching anything inbounds), then land out-of-bounds after which I can mark my lye where the disc last crossed out-of-bounds.

The tournament director can limit your options, but otherwise you can always rethrow from the previous lie, or one meter in bounds from where you were last over an in bounds area, or from the drop zone if there is one.

At IOS #3 we had the artificial island hole and there you always had to go to the drop zone.  At USDGC they have a hole where the tee is the drop zone and it is your only option, so you have to re-tee, even if you were over the in bounds green before finishing o.b.

I can think of three different tournaments last year where not knowing their options cost a competitor a stroke.  In every case they missed a short putt and then rolled or flew a long ways to o.b.  Instead of reputting with the penalty from the old mark, they took their next putt from one meter off the o.b. line much farther away.  If you are playing against me and you ask, I'll tell you the truth; but if you don't ask, it won't even occur to me until a hole or two later.  

[Dan Michler]

I would feel stupid re-putting from my old spot 10 feet from the basket after I missed and rolled OB 50 feet away.  This may be compliant with the current PDGA rules, but that is not how golf is meant to be played.  Tiger Woods certainly can't do this during a PGA event when his putt rolls way past the hole into the water, and the PDGA rules shouldn't allow it either.

[Bruce Brakel]

I would feel stupid re-putting from my old spot 10 feet from the basket after I missed and rolled OB 50 feet away.  This may be compliant with the current PDGA rules, but that is not how golf is meant to be played.  Tiger Woods certainly can't do this during a PGA event when his putt rolls way past the hole into the water, and the PDGA rules shouldn't allow it either.

If Tiger rolled o.b. off the green he would be required to reputt from the last lie under USGA rules.  Rule 27-1.  If he rolled into a water hazard, which is not o.b. under USGA rules but is a "water hazard," he would have the option.  Rule 26-1.  

[Dan Michler]

Exactly.  But, water is OB in disc golf, so thats where it gets stupid.

[Chainmeister]

If Tiger were playing disc golf and while taking a 10 foot putt missed a target and flew 50 or so feet into the water, he would be a fool to play from the water's edge.  His caddy would stop him before throwing and tell him, "Hey Tigre, this is for money man.  Why make a harder shot.  Take the easiest legal shot."  Its a weird situation where the water is right behind the target that would bring this rule into play.  If Tiger, or Dan for that matter, misses the target and lands 50 feet away, he will shoot from there.  So, if you have a water backdrop, make sure you have an extra putter in your bag, take aim and do not chicken out.  Make a good putt with good spin.  Hey, if you fly into the water, you can try again from the original spot after taking the penalty.  

It seems to me, a guy with minimal tourny experience, that the rule is more important for longer shots.  You have a choice.  Your disc went out 150 feet ahead, but behind some trees.  You can choose the shorter but trickier shot one meter from the boundry or you can re-shoot from the original spot.  No trees where your disc went out?  Are you going to let your ego say "I am going to make it this time" or is your brain going to say, "Ok, this shot is a lot closer."?  

[Bruce Brakel]

I'm going with my brain but letting Dan go with his ego!  

[SERG]

Doug is talking about Hole F just north of the parking lot. It had rope around the left sied of the fairway, wrapped around & and along Yourkhouse road to the entrance road. On and over the entrance road was OB as well. Shawn's yellow Discatcher was the temp basket.

I'm assuming Doug threw a forehand on the shot. The disc immediately crossed the OB to the left and never came back. Since the disc never crossed back in bounds, you should have either played 1 meter off the OB line where it crossed out or ReTeed. That is how it was supposed to be played correctly.

Your group was very friendly and gave you a good spot or weren't aware of the correct rule . I think everyone learned from that situation and it worked out good for Doug. Did you take a circle 4 on that hole doug?

I was in Doug's group when this occurred and yes, we were very generous    Just kidding...none of us knew the exact ruling so we made him bring it in bounds from where it landed and take a penalty stroke.

The disc was never in-bounds except for on the tee pad. Doug threw it out of bounds and it never came back. It hit some trees and fell not too far from the "green" area. I don't remember if he made the putt to save par or if it was a 4.

Either way, as a group we decided what to do because the rule were uncertain. Is this OK without penalty to each person in the group?

[Dan Michler]

I'm not saying yall shouldn't play by the rules.  I'm just saying I think it is a dumb rule.  I think you shouldn't be able to play from your old lie if your shot goes out of bounds.  It seems like your getting off too easy if you shoot way by into the water and you get to reputt from next to the basket.  I think you should be able to re-tee, but not rethrow from any other shot.

[Bruce Brakel]

Either way, as a group we decided what to do because the rule were uncertain. Is this OK without penalty to each person in the group?

The group is never penalized for miscalling the rules.  If a player does not like the call he can play it the group's way and play it the way he thinks the rules say, and then ask the TD.

The rules don't seem to specify a penalty for taking incorrect relief from out-of-bounds.  If you were playing in a higher division and someone was making an issue of it, the TD could penalize the player two strokes for a general misplay discovered after the hole was complete.