2005 WI Events

[Bruce Brakel]

Am Master is not for a player of a certain skill it is for a player of a certain age.  If you only want to play with am guys over 40, play am master.  If you only want to play with intermediates, well in this case you'd have to play a different tournament.    

[Mitch]

A sandbagger, by definition, is someone who artifically inflates his handicap (or lowers his rating in disc golf) in order to gain an advantage. Since there is no rating cap for Advanced divisions how could this player be sandbagging? It is absolutely impossible, by definition of the term, for anyone playing in an advanced division to sandbag. The only way to "sandbag" in Advanced Masters is if someone underage were to lie about their age in order to play in the division.

Jon

Perhaps sandbagger is the wrong label for the guy, in the old days that was always the term we used, but how does the PDGA address a guy who beats the same group of peers over and over for years and never moves on or gives anyone else a chance. Furthermore rumor has it this guy sells the plastic he wins for a profit. He's made a business of it

[damonshort]

Perhaps sandbagger is the wrong label for the guy, in the old days that was always the term we used, but how does the PDGA address a guy who beats the same group of peers over and over for years and never moves on or gives anyone else a chance.

Just for the record, I avoid calling him a sandbagger.   You can't force someone to turn pro, so under the PDGA guidelines he's got every right to stay where he is.

To me it's a bit of a puzzle, since if I could play consistently at his level I'd want to raise my game and play in a division where I wasn't winning all the time (and it's not 'all the time'; just ask Pat    )   I dug my own hole yesterday so it's not like I didn't have a chance. But I'm not gonna try beating him on his home course in Manitowoc so I'm playing pro GM next month; it's only $5 more and I don't need the plastic.  

Furthermore rumor has it this guy sells the plastic he wins for a profit. He's made a business of it.

Well, yeah, but he's certainly not alone. That goes to the whole am/pro/semi-pro argument, a situation I think is full of holes. And is another thread.

So I'm not defending him - I think the situation is a little pathetic, really - but there's really not much that can be done about it.


And I'm clearly unmotivated at work today.....    

[Jon Brakel]

Jon

Perhaps sandbagger is the wrong label for the guy, in the old days that was always the term we used, but how does the PDGA address a guy who beats the same group of peers over and over for years and never moves on or gives anyone else a chance. Furthermore rumor has it this guy sells the plastic he wins for a profit. He's made a business of it

The PDGA is not addressing that issue as far as I can tell. The fix for the problem is either a ceiling on amateurs, which just seems wrong to me, or get rid of the merchandiserama format. The problem is that if the PDGA gets rid of the merchandiserama format then I think they will lose their amateurs to non-sanctioned merchandise based tournaments. They will then, in turn, lose their big pro "added" cash. Most of the "added" cash comes from the amateur base in one way or another. Shut down the merchandiserama format and the pro cash cow dies...or really the cow gets born again under a different name.

Perhaps Nick Kight is right. Maybe we need a division that doesn't have prizes so that we can put a rating cap on the merch division but leave no rating cap on the "Nick Kight" amateur. No one would play the division, but at least those of us who feel that making someone turn pro is wrong can just point to that division and say "If you want to be a career amateur you have to play over there once your rating gets over 975 (or whatever the ceiling might be)."

[Mitch]

If an advanced player like the one I'm referring to could play pro or pro master and take their winnings in funny money and protect their am status I'd be happy.

What do you think of that idea?

[Bruce Brakel]

I think the solution is simple:

Approximately 50% of the players at any tournament can play in a lower division than the one they signed up for.  Those players need to shut up or move down.  If you are a recreational or intermediate rated player playing in an advanced division and you are calling anyone a bagger, you are the problem.  And if you are playing a tournament where you cannot move down because the TD does not offer lower divisions, you need to ask yourself if you should be playing that tournament.  No one has an obligation to move out of an advanced division so that you can win against weak competition.  The top amateur divisions are for the top amateur players, and people who want to get their butts kicked by them.

Second, I think the problem at the top of Advanced, where there are 50 players rated over 955 still playing advanced, could be solved by capping advanced at 955 and creating a new division for amateur players over 955.  There would be so few players in this division at any particular tournament that the payouts would be small and there would be no financial incentive to stay here.  

We have little control over what the PDGA does.  We can control what we do.  

As for amateurs selling the stuff they win, that is just part of the merchorama system or whatever Jon called it.  It seems to me that the only ams not selling the stuff they win are the ams playing up who aren't winning much.  All the stuff I win at my tournaments and other TDs' tournaments I just throw back in the merch boxes.  I have seen my merch in other TDs' boxes so I know that they are doing the same thing.  

[Jon Brakel]

Then the problem in Advanced Masters is a PDGA problem. According to the PDGA all Masters aged men should also be Advanced in skill because the PDGA doesn't offer any lower Masters divisions.

[Mitch]

Intermediate Masters was the perfect division for me and I believe for many of the guys I'm playing with. I would love to see it restored.

[shawn]

Steve Nichols is the guy they are talking about...  He has won 10 of the last 17 events he has played and never finished less then 2nd on the other 7...  Yes, he is a BAGGER....   I heard that he is staying an AM till the 2007 worlds in Milwaukee..  Is it fair?  NO..  Can he do it? YES.  

[Dan Michler]

i believe there are lower divisions in which an advanced masters player can play.  intermediate and recreational are both available.  plus you can play against a larger field that way.  just a suggestion.  obviously i'm not quite masters age yet, but i guess i don't personally understand why any amateur masters divisions are even needed.

[Dan Michler]

looks like the dude ur talking about is rated 941.  thats a little low to be able to do much in Pro master, but if i were him i would just play Advanced and probably stop picking on the small field of adv. masters, some of whom only play advanced masters to play with people their own age.  but then again i'm not him so as long as he's playing by the rules i guess there's no point in worrying about stupid sh*t like who is sandbagging and who isn't.

[damonshort]

i believe there are lower divisions in which an advanced masters player can play.  intermediate and recreational are both available.  plus you can play against a larger field that way.  just a suggestion.  obviously i'm not quite masters age yet, but i guess i don't personally understand why any amateur masters divisions are even needed.

You've got a point Dan; I think historically it's been considered more of a 'social' thing, although I don't have a problem playing with you little b---s when the situation presents itself.   . The thing at Highbridge is a nice setup - purely ratings-based - and I wish I could go.  

I've only been playing since 98, when I was well past 40 already (Vollrath had been there for 20 yrs and is 4 blocks from my mother-in-law's house - I'd barely noticed    ), but wasn't Masters originally 35/over, and GM 45/over, and they bumped it up? And as I recall, PDGA was going to dump Adv GM completely but a lot of geezers complained about it. Now you've got Brad Hammock, one of the stronger players overall, cleaning up in Masters and people are bitching. Ron Russell is technically a Master but he hasn't 'aged up' yet. Maybe they'll bump it up another 5 yrs?

Personally, I'll still play Int when the schedule fits mine and it's sanctioned, as I'm certainly an intermediate player. I think the IOS concept is starting to have an impact, as the Prairie Open and Peoria both had sanctioned Ints this year, and I've only seen that one other time in either IL or WI since I've started playing!

I might even play both days this weekend if I don't collapse from heatstroke on Sat. (95!? yikes!)  since I can also play adv Masters on Sunday.  Age has its benefits.  

Jon, you gonna take the plunge into Adv Masters at Manitowoc next month?

[damonshort]

looks like the dude ur talking about is rated 941.  thats a little low to be able to do much in Pro master, but if i were him i would just play Advanced and probably stop picking on the small field of adv. masters, some of whom only play advanced masters to play with people their own age.  but then again i'm not him so as long as he's playing by the rules i guess there's no point in worrying about stupid sh*t like who is sandbagging and who isn't.

another good point, Dan. That's two in one day. You're on a roll.  

Again, for the record, I understand some of the bitching, but me personally, I've got no problem with it. I had my chances yesterday and didn't come through. He's playing by the rules. I'd do it differently, but that's me. I had a great time (easily my best tournament ever, even though I feel I didn't really shoot that well!?) and he's a nice guy. Onward...

[damonshort]

oh yeah, some young Sheboygan punk aced the 305' Lake Monster hole (#13) w/ a Roc in the group right behind us yesterday. We were standing by the tee for #14 right as it cruised in. That was cool.  

There were only 2 aces yesterday, which is certainly unusual for that course, but then again Aaron Wield wasn't there.  

[kyle]

I think the IOS concept is starting to have an impact, as the Prairie Open and Peoria both had sanctioned Ints this year, and I've only seen that one other time in either IL or WI since I've started playing!

The Prairie Open has been sanctioned for all AM divisions all 3 years its been around. It just didn't always have enough gators to get us ratings.
(I just wish Manitowac and some of the other WI events would start sanctioning their Am days now.)

Speaking of Manitowac, I've played the course a couple of times, but never made it up there for the tournament. How is it? Good player packs?
I'm considering it, but $30-35 for an unsanctioned event makes me think twice.

[damonshort]

I think the IOS concept is starting to have an impact, as the Prairie Open and Peoria both had sanctioned Ints this year, and I've only seen that one other time in either IL or WI since I've started playing!

The Prairie Open has been sanctioned for all AM divisions all 3 years its been around. It just didn't always have enough gators to get us ratings.
(I just wish Manitowac and some of the other WI events would start sanctioning their Am days now.)

Speaking of Manitowac, I've played the course a couple of times, but never made it up there for the tournament. How is it? Good player packs?
I'm considering it, but $30-35 for an unsanctioned event makes me think twice.

I played Manitowoc on Saturday their 1st year (I think I missed the 2nd year, I actually had a music gig as I recall); everybody got at least a disc then, maybe two (I even got a disc returned for a change), and I think it's gotten better since then.

You know what the course is like (I love it), and the vibe is great. I know the Sunday player packs are fine, so go for it either day. You should shoot fine even if you reg for Advanced on Sunday.

Although, yeah, Sat should be sanctioned too.  

[SERG]

I didn't see lower AM scores for the Pickle Open on PDGA.com. I assume it wasn't sanctioned?

FYI: Carla won Intermediate Women by 2 strokes...another black disc.

Black Disc Count:
Sergio (0)
Carla (5)

[Jon Brakel]

Jon, you gonna take the plunge into Adv Masters at Manitowoc next month?

I've been thinking about where I should make my 1st Masters appearance. I should play somewhere this year as a Master since this is my "bagging" year...although not by skill, by age. Had I been born 12 days later I would have had to wait another year to play Masters!

Manitowoc sounds inviting. If I can make it do you want to car pool Damon?

[damonshort]

Manitowoc sounds inviting. If I can make it do you want to car pool Damon?

Jon, I'm going up the day before and staying in Sheboygan again. At this point it's a family trip, but I'll talk to you this weekend about it.

[Bruce Brakel]

I didn't see lower AM scores for the Pickle Open on PDGA.com. I assume it wasn't sanctioned?

FYI: Carla won Intermediate Women by 2 strokes...another black disc.

Black Disc Count:
Sergio (0)
Carla (5)

I'm fairly certain the lower day was unsanctioned.

We always sanction all divisions at IOS tournaments.