Joliet Schedule

[SERG]

Anyone from Kenosha planning on playing Mokena on July 10th (25th Illinois State DG Championships)? Willing to drive/carpool if anyone is interested.

[Mike S]

I just realized the tournament on the 10th is playing the RED tees.  I have never even played the red tees, I always shoot from the white or blue.  I guess I need to play a round there this weekend for sure now.  Does anyone know if pre-registration is a must for this one?  I think it might be too late anyways.

[Dan Michler]

no u definitely don't need to prereg.  always show up when registration is scheduled to start though just to be safe.

The 10th is for ADV/PRO divisions and the 9th is for int/rec divisions according to the flyer.  Gary is usually ready to take registration before 8am.

Mokena is a fun course so it should be a pretty fun event as it was last year.

[damonshort]

I just realized the tournament on the 10th is playing the RED tees.  I have never even played the red tees, I always shoot from the white or blue.  I guess I need to play a round there this weekend for sure now.  Does anyone know if pre-registration is a must for this one?  I think it might be too late anyways.

The 10th is white/blue; 9th is red, which I'm assuming is the short tees.

[Mike S]

I just realized the tournament on the 10th is playing the RED tees.  I have never even played the red tees, I always shoot from the white or blue.  I guess I need to play a round there this weekend for sure now.  Does anyone know if pre-registration is a must for this one?  I think it might be too late anyways.

The 10th is white/blue; 9th is red, which I'm assuming is the short tees.

ah, right, i mixed up the dates.  I'll be playing rec or intermediate, not exactly sure yet.  I think I am gonna make it out there tomorrow to play the red tees.  I have played that course a million times and never even tried them.

[Dan Michler]

so how did Mokena go?  results?

[damonshort]

so how did Mokena go?  results?

Chris Heeren won by one. Shot a -20 from the mids (somebody else did too!) and -6 from the longs. Kris Hutter was 2nd, Timmy Gill was 3rd, 2 shots back. Neither of them had the other -20, can't remember who did.

[edit: after reading a post on another board, I guess it was T. Gill who had the other -20 after all...]

I had a mediocre 1st round, terrible 2nd round. The length wasn't a problem, I just couldn't putt. I mean I really couldn't putt; I burst out laughing at one point. At least I wasn't DFL.

Spike, Steve Waters and Jose were the only other club players there, I believe. I don't think any of them placed either.

It wasn't full but there were about 100 players for 27 holes. Everybody got a new stamped Pro Starfire, which was a very welcome change from the usual free X-Out.  

[Dan Michler]

a pro starfire huh?  wow.  i don't know what i'll do without my double stamped DX leopard player packs!

[Mike S]

I'll bet I played worse than Damon!!  Wow was that embarassing.  I decide to step up and play advanced, and I shoot two of my worst rounds ever on that course.  I beat my previous worst blue tees score by 6 strokes.  Great round.  Looks like I'll be playing intermediate next time around.

[adoni]

I'm a Joliet player and I've been displeased with Gary's tournaments since I've started competing two+ years ago.  I've heard the he runs the best tourneys around.   My guess, no one has ever played an IOS event.  My son and I just got involved with the ISO events and I am quite pleased.  I think you guys run an awesome tourney!  One of my many bitches about Gary's tournaments is he lets others that should be playing up, play down.  Right when you think you have a chance, someone that WILL play on Sunday shows up and takes it all away.  It's disheartening.  My son and I got into the PDGA 2 years ago and the only time we get our scores recorded is if we go out of town.  SHEESH!!  Joliet has what, 7 or so courses around and then the only time I get recognized is if I play on Advanced day .... I'd be better off starting a fire with my entry fee.

Ok .... I'm done.  I am glad to see that others have similar views to mine.

Brent, Bruce, Jon ... keep up the good work on the series ... I'll be back.  So far I've only missed the Wisc. event (1st event of 2005)

And for the record, I know for a fact that Gary uses Saturday events to sweeten the pot for Sunday.

[Mike S]

killer mustache, dude.

[Jon Brakel]

I'm a Joliet player and I've been displeased with Gary's tournaments since I've started competing two+ years ago.  I've heard the he runs the best tourneys around.   My guess, no one has ever played an IOS event.  My son and I just got involved with the ISO events and I am quite pleased.  I think you guys run an awesome tourney!  One of my many bitches about Gary's tournaments is he lets others that should be playing up, play down.  Right when you think you have a chance, someone that WILL play on Sunday shows up and takes it all away.  It's disheartening.  My son and I got into the PDGA 2 years ago and the only time we get our scores recorded is if we go out of town.  SHEESH!!  Joliet has what, 7 or so courses around and then the only time I get recognized is if I play on Advanced day .... I'd be better off starting a fire with my entry fee.

Ok .... I'm done.  I am glad to see that others have similar views to mine.

Brent, Bruce, Jon ... keep up the good work on the series ... I'll be back.  So far I've only missed the Wisc. event (1st event of 2005)

And for the record, I know for a fact that Gary uses Saturday events to sweeten the pot for Sunday.

Thanks for the kind words. We set out a few years ago to run the kind of tournaments that we want to play.

I have great respect for Gary and everything that he has done for disc golf. I have approached him several times about doing his lower divisions sanctioned. We obviously disagree about that.

Taking profit from the lower divisions and adding them to the upper divisions has been a long standing way to run tournaments. It is not the way the IOS is run and it won't be the way any tournament that I am involved in will be run.

[Bruce Brakel]

I've never dissed Gary publicly and I'm not going to.  He runs great tournaments for pro and advanced players.  He has given thousands of hours to course installation and maintenance projects.  If you choose to play unsanctioned tournaments you get what you get.  I think it is cool that Joliet rec and intermediate players support the pros the way they do.  Be sure to let other Joliet rec and intermediates in on what you know.  There has always been room for more players at our split day tournaments.

[Jason M]

I too am a Joliet player and I personally find it very disheartening that all of you people are dissing a PDGA Hall of Famer. I think that it is rediculous that some of you people are bitching that an Intermediate tournament is not sanctioned. I'm sorry but if you don't like it, then don't come.

   Gary busts his ass out there and some people here don't even have the guts to approach him about this. Maybe the reason that he doesn't sanction both days is because of the extra work (and cost) it would be to get those scores to the PDGA. He, unfortunately, has nobody doing the extra work for him to get these scores in. He does EVERYTHING himself. I am not going to claim to be anything special because I rarely have the time to help him myself, and have already missed one of his tournaments this year for work.

   So to Tony and anybody else out there that doesn't like his events please don't go bitching about it out on the internet. That is ignorant! Bring it to people in our area tyo work out, or bring it to Gary.

Finally, rumor has it that you guys from up north are trying to take over an event or 2 in J-Town. Just so you know, if you do you will have a major boycott on your hands. You will be missing many of the best golfers from the state. This is Garys area, and we would like to keep it that way. No matter how you guys feel, I have never witnessed a better TD than Mr. Lewis.

Jason M

Bruce, just so you know, you say you have never dissed Gary publicly, but that sure sounded like a diss to me.

[Jon Brakel]

Jason,

I didn't diss Gary. I said I have great respect for him. One of the reasons I started running tournaments in Illinois is because Gary suggested it. I was talking to him once about a tournament that I helped run with Bruce in Michigan and he said that I should think about running tournaments on the courses up here. Soon after I met Brett and the Illinois Open was born. After the first Illinois Open Gary said to me "Why don't you run some tournaments at Crystal Lake and Streamwood?" Next year we did. The IOS is secretly a puppet of Gary's!  

But seriously, I really like Gary and really appreciate everything that he has done for disc golf. It is a Joliet guy dissing Gary, not one of us from the IOS. Gary and I can disagree about how to run tournaments but I enjoy talking to him on the phone to talk shop. Gary is a really nice guy and I don't have any bad feelings about him at all.

[adoni]

I was hoping only to express my opinion in a bulletinboard.  I did not have the intention of starting a 'flame war'.  There are many discussions in this world that many others do not know took place.  One discussion was with Mr. Lewis about making Sat. (AM day) sanctioned.  And it's not just a one time discussion ... it has been mentioned a few times, and as read in the previous posts, not just by me.  I have a 15 year old that wants to play and compete, but when he goes up and asks if he can play on Sun. so his scores are recorded and is told he can play advanced, what message does that send.  He, and I, think it's wrong.

If we follow the 2005 PDGA Tour Player Classifications and Divisions Guide...
<--snip-->

PDGA guidelines stipulate that events must offer any division for which there are 4 or more registered competitors, unless advance notice is given. Exceptions are made in the interests of member-player satisfaction, notably in the Women's and Junior divisions, where participants are often limited to 3 players or less.

<--snip-->

I apologize to Discontinuum DISCussion if I've started something.  I didn't mean to.

My guess is, I won't be able to find a doubles partner around here now.    

[mirth]

I have no beef with you. I know many folks who play in tournaments & believe in the PDGA want to see all divisions be run sanctioned.

[Jon Brakel]

Adoni, I didn't think you were out of line and there is no reason to appologize to Disctontinuum. You were expressing your opinion. I would have called you out on it if I thought you were being out of line.

Gary knows that some people want him to run his lower days sanctioned. He also knows that there are some people that won't attend his events if he does sanction the lower days. Every year I ask him to consider sanctioning the lower days (as I am also a lower day rated player) and every year he tells me that he thinks more of his players want unsanctioned.

As a TD I know that every decision I make someone will be displeased about. That's the way it goes. As a TD I have to just run things the way I think is best. Gary runs things the way he sees best. We both have good attendance at our tournaments so we both must be running tournaments that appeal to a bunch of disc golfers. I can understand why Gary doesn't want to change something that has been successful, but I'll still ask him this winter to consider sanctioning the lower divisions in 2006.

[Bruce Brakel]

I don't have any problem with you expressing your opinion.  In my opinion, people who don't like the format a TD is offering shouldn't play that tournament.  Gary is convinced that the majority of his players want unsanctioned lower divisions and he would know.  Jon and I are convinced that there are intermediate and recreational PDGA members in northern Illinois and southern Wisconsin who would like to play sanctioned tournaments, and we have seen that to be true also.  

[pickax]

Every time I go out and hit a round at my local course (Knoch Knolls - Naperville), I see Gary's name on the last tee as the course designer and am thankful for whatever work he did to get the course put in. Every time I go play any of the courses near I-80, I wish they were closer and am again appreciative of Gary's efforts.

My first tournament was one of Gary's down in Mokena. My first impression was disappointment that my  "free disc" was a misstamped disc. At the end of the tournament, my thoughts were "I can't believe the top rec players were shooting way under par". (I also did so poorly I was grouped with the rec women for the second round). The next tournement that I played in was Discontinuum run and for less money I received a couple of brand new discs and even finished in the brass.

Now one advantage Gary does have on the IOS series (in general) are courses which IMHO are much better.  Mokena, West Park, and Shorewood are great courses. (though I think both UW-Parkside and Rockford are just as good).

I think if Gary would sanction his lower divisions, I might be inclined to go back. At this point, I will probably reserve  my precious few chances to play in a tournament for sanctioned tournaments only. I treat my $5 non-PDGA member fee (I don't play in enough tourneys for the annual membership) as a guarantee on tournament quality and also as sandbagging protection.

Based on the tournament guidelines would Gary have to offer a rec division on his Adv/Pro sanctioned days if a foursome of rec players showed up? (Since the IOS sanctions days seperately, would that also be true for the IOS?)

As a digression (probably for another thread): Would there be less sandbagging and more playing up if tournaments were split rec/advanced on day 1 and intermediate/open on day 2. One of the things that was great about the Rockford tournament is that there was actually a gallery for the final safari. With a different split, you might have more that actually go watch the top 4. You could even give the top adv a chance to do a safari (and have a crowd). My gut feeling is that the rec and int players are more likely to watch the top players than the adv.

Back on topic, Gary has done some great work at getting some great courses in the ground, but
in comparing the tournaments, here's what I am looking at:
J-Town: $28: 48-54 holes on great courses, 1 misstamped disc, sandbaggers likely
IOS: $19 (trophy only, non-pdag): 42-44 holes, 1 champion quality disc, sandbaggers unlikely.