WI Tour Economics & misc

[shawn]

do you have trophy only options?

seriously, why are WI events so damn expensive?

[Chainmeister]

do you have trophy only options?

seriously, why are WI events so damn expensive?

Just tank a bunch of rounds to get to a lower division, and save some money.  I thought $20 for Novice was very reasonable. I haven't sent in any money yet, but plan to.

[Dan Michler]

do you have trophy only options?

seriously, why are WI events so damn expensive?

Here is 1 reason:

$5 WI Tour fee that most of us have no interest in participating in, yet are given no choice.

[Bruce Brakel]

do you have trophy only options?

seriously, why are WI events so damn expensive?

Just tank a bunch of rounds to get to a lower division, and save some money.  I thought $20 for Novice was very reasonable. I haven't sent in any money yet, but plan to.

I used Wisconsin pricing for the Peoria Open.  The courses in Peoria are worth a higher entry fee.  If we have a good turn out, I think you'll see the difference that five or seven dollars more makes in payouts. 

I've never understood the whole different prices for different divisions thing.  They are all getting the same amenities.  Why not charge every division the same?  We do it too, but to a lesser degree.  We have pared it down to three Saturday prices and two Sunday prices, counting the trophy only option. 

Maybe I should start a group of polls in the IOS area.  Brett and Jon both think that lower division players want to pay less and get proportionately more of it back in player packs but upper division players want to pay more and get bigger payouts.  Maybe some of our pros would not be wound so tight if the entry fee was lower?  Or is it just that Type A types are more likely to make it to the pro ranks? 

Dan, you have choices.  You have a huge city full of weekend recreational choices.  Kalamazoo is not that far from Chicagoland.  And gas was 20 cents a gallon cheaper in Michigan City than it was in Mokena.  You just have to leave home sometime when sensible people are sleeping so that you can have the one open lane out of Chicago all to yourself!  I have no idea what Larry is doing or what course he is using or what his entry fees are.  If you find out what courses he is using I'll tell you what the courses are like. 

[Dan Michler]

my point (as i'm sure bruce already knew) was that i have no choice but to pay the 5 bucks if i want to play the event, even if i have no intention of playing the WI Tour finals.

[shawn]

there also is a 2 buck basket fee...   have not heard anything about where the baskets were placed the last few years.  http://www.widiscsports.com/wdsaFinance.shtml     No info at their site...

Is anyone accually going to drive to Marshfield for the WI tour Finale... it's only a 4 hour drive north of Milwaukee..

Had a friend this year take 2nd in Adv. out of 47 players and he got 35 in funny money..  players pack was a disc and mini.  Cost 50 to get in...   that is craptacular...  This is the going theme at the Prestigous WI Tour Events..   

Is it poor management, lack of sponsorship...  my guess is NO sponorship and fleece the AM's...  Just keep running events when you can fit them in...  I remember when the Praire Open wanted to get in the WI tour and they wanted to keep it down to best 7 events in WI for the year..  They were trying to figure out who to bump out or if we could even get in...  There are now 14 events that are in it.

Sorry about thread drift....  this deserves it's own thread....  well, not that sorry.

[discglfr]

Oh,

It seems to be "THAT TIME" once again in the wonderful world of disc golf.  Looks like it's time for someone to step up and provide some explanations out there since there are rumors, threads, and whatever else going on.  Shawn, it's doesn't appear to be a secret that you have come under the same frame of mind that some others have.  Seems like the more people try to explain the truth, the more people don't care to hear it and instead they start vicious lies and rumors everywhere they turn.  Not speaking of anyone specfic here, but it seems to happen all the time.

ALL of the below statements can be found by either ASKING someone that is directly involved with the WI Tour or coming to ask me.

Starting with Shawn's initial question - seems like event fees are always up for debate.  Most of the time people want to see bigger payout but then complain about paying more to play.  Or the flip side is that when people pay very little they then say that the payout sucked.  What is the right answer here?  I don't know if we'll ever know.  It also seems that if you do well or dominate in a particular division you don't mind paying more because you probably will win more.  Bottom feeders usually feel the opposite and they enjoy large player's packs and flatter payouts. 

WI TOUR RULES are all posted right here for everyone to see:  http://www.widiscsports.com/rules.shtml

SIMILARILY ALL WDSA finances for the past few years all appear when I go to
http://www.widiscsports.com/wdsaFinance.shtml

http://www.widiscsports.com/assets/wdsaFiles/2002WIDiscGolfTourBalanceSheet.pdf

http://www.widiscsports.com/assets/wdsaFiles/2003WIDiscGolfTourBalanceSheet.pdf

http://www.widiscsports.com/assets/wdsaFiles/2003WDSAFinancialReport.pdf

http://www.widiscsports.com/assets/wdsaFiles/2003FinaleScoresPayout.pdf


ALSO...ALL BASKET FUND RECIPIENTS are listed here:  http://www.widiscsports.com/assets/wdsaFiles/CourseDevelopment.pdf and the guidelines for applying for it are right here:  http://www.widiscsports.com/assets/wdsaFiles/CourseDevelopmentAwardGuidelines.pdf

http://www.widiscsports.com/assets/wdsaFiles/2004WIDiscGolfTourBalanceSheet.pdf

http://www.widiscsports.com/assets/wdsaFiles/2004WDSAFinancialReport.pdf

http://www.widiscsports.com/assets/wdsaFiles/2004FinaleScoresPayout.pdf

http://www.widiscsports.com/assets/wdsaFiles/2005WDSAFinancialReport.pdf

I would be willing to bet that at least a handful of people that read this message board have played on at least 1 course that has received a basket from the Wisconsin Disc Sports Development Fund.  In the grand scheme of things can you really be upset that $2 of your entry goes towards putting MORE courses in the ground? 

Regarding the finale - the tour directors, Tom Jenkins and Eric Paulson, attempt to find new and different locations each year.  Ideally they would like the location to be 'centrally' located but of course that always can be up for debate.  Heck, Steve Kinde near Menomonie put in a bid to host the finale but they thought that was too far to the west of the State.  Marshfield is WITHIN 3 hours from just about every MAJOR disc golf city in the State.  I'm sorry if you aren't personally pleased with it's location.  I think the common TD phrase is, "You can't please everyone all of the time."

Innova and others have been great supporters and sponsors of the WI Tour for many years.  Duster, Randy, Mike Newhouse, Uncle Joe, I Can Putt That, Flying Fortress, the GLDGC, myself, and countless other companies have helped sponsor either ALL of the WI tour or at least individual stops on the tour.  Do we have a $1,000, $5,000, or $10,000 sponsor for the tour?  NO.  Could YOU personally lead the charge do doing so - SURE.  Hundreds of people put in hundreds of hours of work to make events happen on the WI tour and it's one of the most organized and best run tours in the nation.  Nearly 13 or 14 years have made this a reality and if you don't believe just how good it is, ask the PDGA for starters.  They have complimented us plenty of times for 'being on top of things'.  We see anywhere between 100 to 250 people at each of the events (with a few Pin High exceptions) and that's not too bad in our eyes.  Our WI Tour has also helped bring Wisconsin to over 100 playable disc golf courses AND proves that Wisconsin can host B Tiers, A Tiers, NT's, AND Majors! 

I think you are a little mis-guided and mis-informed when it comes to your Parkside details as well.  The tour wanted to make sure the people were in place to pull off a well-run event.  That was proven early and it's been a great addition to the tour ever since.  Again, it appears that the intentions of the tour directors don't match up with your personal agenda so I think that's something you need to take up with them.

As for the Pickle / Sergio reference that you made.  I PERSONALLY have PDGA spreadsheet in front of me.  Heck, I'll even go as explaining it to the best of my knowledge. 

Starting from the top:

The ENTRY FEE was in fact $35 for the Advanced division so saying it was $50 is not correct.  There was a processing charge for doing it online and there was a late fee/day of assessment to a FEW players that in fact didn't register until the day of the event.  I don't think Sergio fell into either category.

$2 was taken out for the basket fund (which has now benefited over 20 courses in the State)
$2 was taken out for the Wisconsin Tour (which goes towards the finale and various costs throughout the year)
$3 was taken for being a PDGA B-Tier event
$1 was taken out for course costs (rental of the shelter and course closing for the day)
$1 was taken out for sanctioning / insurance (sanctioning is $75 and insurance was $50)
$1 was taken out for event supplies, (photocopying, air horn, paint, pencils, baggies, and probably 20 other little things the TD shouldn't have to eat the cost of)

So that (unfortunately but fairly) adds up to $10 subtracted for the $35 entry.

Ryan then subtracted $10 out for each participant for their funny money (aka brass cash).

That left him with $1100 in the purse.  He then took out $18 per person for the custom, hand made trophies (I'm sure you'll want to argue with that as well but those were unique, hand made, 1 of a kind trophies and I don't think he 'gouged' the 44 players by subtracting $18 for each of the 3 trophies.   

At the end, he gave each player a Nalgene sytle water bottle if they were in the cash.  I guess figured a modest $8 value for each of those that were given out. 

He also had a few hundred dollars in Am CTP's and Pickle games which were ALL FREE for every amatuer (and pro) to compete in. 

He then just read the payout scale straight down from the PDGA report and guess what ... he even paid an extra 2 spots from what the payout suggested.  He met or exceeded all PDGA B-tier guidelines in all divisions. 

So my questions to you (or anyone else for that matter) are:

1)  When is the last time you correctly researched the PDGA TD report or read the tour guidelines?

2)  When is the last time you ran ANY event?

3)  Do you think TD's or people doing disc golf related work should be breaking even or even worse, taking a loss on events?

4)  Do you there are more constructive and helpful ways of presenting your opinion without bashing the hard workers and volunteers that put forth so much time and effort? 

I know I take some of what you said personally because I'm one of those people that works very hard to provide more events, leagues, and courses yet I hear more complaints than anything else.  Many people will gladly take constructive criticism and try to better themselves and the things they do but please have your facts straight before you belittle what others work so hard to do. 

As always, my phone and e-mail are open to anyone.  That goes for all 8 members of the WDSA board.  We want to improve things and make them the best we can.  I know it's harder to be part of a solution versus just pointing out the negative but feel free to help things improve rather than commenting on just the 'perceived' negatives. 

And finally ... if you don't LIKE THE CURRENT STRUCTURE with PDGA payouts - you need to bring that to THEIR ATTENTION.  Over the past 10 years the PDGA has gone from a very steep and strict 33% payout model to encouraging a FLATTER payout in ALL Amateur divisions.  If anyone is truly getting bent out of shape on the fact that 'Ams' are not winning hundreds of dollars in discs or portable Mach III baskets for winning Advanced divisions then they need to re-evaluate why they are even playing the game at the 'amateur' level. 

This isn't a news flash but I'll repeat what I've said countless times on other message boards, "No person, anytime soon, is going to get rich playing disc golf at either the amateur or professional level.  If you think that you should, you need to get out now and find a different activity to take up." 


Thanks!

PS - It has been brought to my attention that some people using IE browsers don't always get the correct page to come up on the www.widiscsports.com site.  Apparently there is a glitch there and I apologize about that.  We'll do our best to get those updated correctly.  For what it's worth, I was able to pull up ALL of the above listed links when using the Firefox browser. 

[Bruce Brakel]

I'm not saying this to be inflammatory but explanatory.  I used to think events like these and the TDs who run them were bad, but now I think most TDs don't have good accounting and economic training and they just don't have a grasp on the numbers.  Now I think they mostly have good intentions but are a little weak on the Ferengi spreadsheet skills.  I did the same thing at first but maybe my graduate courses in economics saved me. 

$2 was taken out for the basket fund (which has now benefited over 20 courses in the State)
$2 was taken out for the Wisconsin Tour (which goes towards the finale and various costs throughout the year)
$3 was taken for being a PDGA B-Tier event
$1 was taken out for course costs (rental of the shelter and course closing for the day)
$1 was taken out for sanctioning / insurance (sanctioning is $75 and insurance was $50)
$1 was taken out for event supplies, (photocopying, air horn, paint, pencils, baggies, and probably 20 other little things the TD shouldn't have to eat the cost of)

So that (unfortunately but fairly) adds up to $10 subtracted for the $35 entry.

Ryan then subtracted $10 out for each participant for their funny money (aka brass cash).

 
Of those items, at an IOS we take money for the Series overall awards out of the TD profit on the amateurs.  Likewise the $3 fees, course use fees, potty rental fees, opening up the building fees, sanctioning, insurance, TD supplies, modest trophies and 20 other things for which there is more than enough profit on the amateurs to pay for.  We don't subtract that from the amateurs' payout; we subtract it from the TDs' payout.

I'm sure we're getting basically the same wholesale deals on merchandise.  So on a $35 entry fee, if you are going to pay out $35 retail in prizes, player packs and CTPs combined, it leaves you with about $17.00 to cover those $10 to $12 in expenses.  You don't really need to deduct $10 for a $10 value player pack if it costs you $5.25.  If it costs more, cut out the middleman and deal with Innova and Discraft directly.  I deal with everyone directly or i don't deal their product.

If you do graduated entry fees for some reason and intermediates are paying a lot less, you are probably losing money there.  Our Intermediate cost break down often leaves us with 50 cents per player +/-.  We have similar costs to what you describe, but sometimes a little less, depending on the course use fees which vary.  Don't even think about the juniors or you will just hate them.

Probably where you are having a big problem is with your pros.  You could probably turn on some lights if you would take each entry fee, apply those per player costs to it, and see where you are making money and where you are losing money.  If you are adding 10% to the pros and not getting that in cash from a wealthy benefactor, that 10% is another number in the expense column.  If you are subsidizing all those costs for the pros and making the ams pay for it, you are losing $15 to $20 on every single pro who gives you $50.  OUCH!   

After I did a tournament all on my own and lost a couple hundred bucks, I did two things:  First I went and sat in the park selling left over discs until I was back to zero because Diana was not letting me in the house until I did.  Fortunately it did not rain that week.  Second, while i was sitting there I ran approximated, estimated numbers on every division and every entry fee.  That's when I started hating juniors and pros!  I changed my entry fees and my sanctioning practices to reflect economic reality and now I love everyone, but some more than others. 

It does not really make any economic sense for a TD to lose money on pros so he can attract more pros and lose more money, while he is trying to make up those losses on the amateurs, so he can turn off more amateurs and have fewer amateurs to make up that money on.  That is a cycle that leads to bankruptcy unless someone keeps kicking in $500 every weekend, but it is the cycle most TDs peddle. 

The unfortunate reality is that few TDs really have the cash sponsorship to justify running B-tiers and A-tiers for pros.  When they try to do it on amateur profits, they go into that economic death spiral of attracting more loss leaders and discouraging more profit makers.  It is even harder if a couple of amateurs in the next town over have the education or lobes to figure out how to run events that cater to the players that grease the skids for your "added cash" events.  I'm sorry but we are the stick stirring the whirlpool faster that sucks down those serieses that have upside down economic values. 

If some of you on the other side, (and I won't characterize either side as the darkside even though I admire Darth's economic policies,) would try coming over to our side this is what you'd find:  for two years it is tough sledding because everyone thinks you must be some kind of fraud.  Then you finally break through with the amateur players who are winning at both kinds of events.  They tell their friends.  Now you have 200 players at your tournaments and sponsors are coming to you.  Now when you talk to potential real cash sponsors, like Marshal Street or whoever, they want in somehow because success associates with success and breeds more success. 

I'm trying to be explanatory here so that I can reach and teach anyone who is listening.  But maybe a decent pro TD cannot hear from a sucky am TD.  When the student is ready the teacher will appear.  Except in my case the way it worked was, when the student was ready, the teacher bought him out at his bankruptcy sale.  I can be there for you for that too, if that is all I can do.  Merching up at TD bankruptcy sales has become a thing of mine, unfortunately.

[Dan Michler]

i have had only very positive experiences with AM payouts this year at Wisconsin events.  they have been more than generous.

I see I was wrong about he WI Tour fee being 5 bucks, its only 2.  maybe it was 5 last year, not sure why i thought that.  i only brought it up to help answer shawn's question about why some WI entry fees might be higher than elsewhere.  personally, i wish the fee was optional for people who wish to compete in the Tour finals, but I know what I'm getting into when i travel to these tourneys so the decision is mine.

thanks for the info Terry

[discglfr]

Bruce,

Thanks for your explanations.   They truly make sense IF you are mainly trying to cater to amateurs.  By what you've said and by what we (WI pros) have experienced, it's no secret that the IOS events really do nothing special to attract or retain pros.  In fact, the pro turnouts are usually 25 to 33% less than most WI Tour events (with exceptions of the Ken Kreie events).  It simply is NOT an objective that you guys have and that's fine.  Heck, most of the time it's our WI pros that make up for half or more of your pro field. 

So do we come because they are world class courses?  Do we come because we're expecting huge payouts or even ANY added cash?  Do we come because these are events that are 'can't miss' as pro players?  No, no, and no.  We come because it's the spirit of competition and because we enjoy playing out of state especially when something in state is not going on. 

So your model does a good job of getting am players and making them happy while it does nothing special for the pros.  As you even said, it's hard or doesn't make sense to even offer pro divisions for B or A Tiers because you lose money on them.  So while I realize that new players are the 'future of our sport' your system doesn't really encourage anyone to get better and move up to the pro ranks because it's more advantagous to stay where they are.  And if you want to say that's a problem with the entire PDGA that's fine too.  I think we pay out too many ams way too much to start with.  HOWEVER, no TD in their right mind wants to be the first one to take in a small entry and then pay out nothing but ribbons. 

Ter

[Jon Brakel]

Terry, I think you are spot on especially in your last sentence. I think our IOS tournaments are a means to get to the sponsorship where we can offer pros something. Only time will tell, but I think increasing the ranks of interested and involved amateurs is the road to real pro sponsorship.

[mirth]

I think thats where ratings come into play, to a point, then peer pressure takes over. Why force somebody to turn pro if they don't think they can compete?

[Mike Clark]

Terry, I think you are spot on especially in your last sentence. I think our IOS tournaments are a means to get to the sponsorship where we can offer pros something. Only time will tell, but I think increasing the ranks of interested and involved amateurs is the road to real pro sponsorship.

What happened with the $250.00 from Hot Rags? Did that sponsorship money get added to the pros? If not what happen to it?

[mirth]

IIRC they wanted it split evenly between pros & ams, but don't believe it until Jon/Bruce confirms or denys it.

[CEValkyrie]

Here are my thoughts. These are just opinions. Not bashing any person or series.

Plain and simple. This will continue to be an ongoing debate until disc golf advances into a true Professional sport when it's on TV and big money is involved. No one will care how much plastic ams are winning when Pros are able to make a living off disc golf & are winning hundreds of thousands of dollars at NT Events. The debate of entry fees, trophy only, and whatever else will be gone. For now we have to live and debate what we got right?

I agree with Shawn that WI tour fees are high. I'm going to or will have played 4 of them this year. Tower Ridge, Wakanda, Milwaukee, & Parkside. I was going to play Mad City but I have a wedding to go to that was not planned. With travel costs I just cannot afford to make some of the other trips I had planned. I make a pretty good living too. Of the 13 WI Tour Stops it costs on average $70.00 for Open. $909/13=$69.92. I do agree with Terry that Pros are treated very well at WI Tour stops. You can win some pretty good money when you play good. Many of these events are filled to capacity so I see no reason why they need to lower entry fees. If anything maybe they need to charge more to capitalize on this.

[discglfr]

The Wisconsin Tour has become a pretty big staple in the Midwest and I am a direct product of it (take that as good or bad:)).  It was the Wisconsin Tour that allowed me to host my first ever Fox Valley Open in 1999 which was not my first TD experience but it was my first sanctioned TD experience.  I have since then run probably 75-100 various events throughout the years. 

Other things I know the Wisconsin Tour has done:

1)  Provided a place for people like Barry Schultz to come up through the ranks and then move onto the national and world scene (I hear he's pretty good these days)

2)  Gives organized events to people all over the state.  We have events that range from Eau Claire to Kenosha to Appleton to Telemark.  That's pretty much covers MOST of the entire state.

3)  It gives a system for people to track their goals and accomplishments.  Everyone knows that finishing in the top of the Wisconsin Tour at the end of the year is a serious accomplishment.

4)  We have the 'coveted black disc' which is something that mean seem silly to others but World Champions like Des and Cam Todd have also won these discs and thought the idea was unique and held a special place in their heart.

5)  Other greats like Jay and Des really got their tournament start by coming to Wisconsin Tour events.  I think we must have been doing something right if we could consistantly draw a crowd from Iowa.  They (amongst others) love many of our courses and the people that do so much work to make them happen. 

6)  The Wisconsin Tour has also had even OTHER people come through and get their start.  Let me know if any of these ring a bell, Keith Warren, Chris Heeren, Aaron Wield or Mike Schwieger to name a few.  I'm not turning this into a "our state is better than any other state" but it is apparent that our good courses and well-run events are doing some good for many people. 

7)  I have hit on it before that our WI Tour has helped contribute to over 20 new baskets being placed throughout the state.  If it wasn't for things like our Badger State Games being well-attended or our proven success with outings, we certainly would NOT be where we are today.  If the WI Tour hadn't been what it is today there would be no way the '98 or the '07 Am Worlds would be held in Wisconsin either.

  Last but not least, the WI Tour has given thousands of people constructive things to do with their time and weekends.  I played in my first WI Tour event when I was about 14.  Just a few years later I was attending Am Worlds in Augusta, GA.  Many people have turned the passion of playing disc golf into part time hobbies, part time jobs, and even FULL time jobs.  What more could one ask for?

I'll also throw out the disclaimer that I'm not out here to argue or bash anyone or any style of doing things.  I guess we are just bringing to light the various differences in series, tournament directing, and styles. 

[Bruce Brakel]

The IOSeries does absolutely nothing special for pros for the economic reasons I outlined.  I've always been upfront about this.  When Jon and I were in the initial planning stages of running Illinois tournaments, I suggested not offering pro divisions at all.  But Jon said, "Maybe some pros prefer C-tiers.  Lower entry fees, one day commitment, they could have their reasons.  Just do it in a way where we aren't really losing any money on them."  

After doing it for awhile we figured out that we are doing one thing for the pros: we run minor league pro tournaments where minor league pros can cash.  The 1000 rated pros mostly don't play our tournaments because there is a bigger pay day somewhere else that weekend. 980, 970 rated pros cash all the time at our tournaments.  They rarely cash at the major league events.

We do other things for the pros too, but most of you don't notice.  If any pro wants the amateur player pack, it's $10.  Some pros have bought the player pack to get the Throw Discraft Player Pack.  That's a great deal for an unsponsored pro.  And I've said this before: If any pro thinks the amateurs are getting a better deal than them with 150% payouts in Brass, I think you must be correct because we get so many ams and so few pros.  I'll pay out pros 150% in Brass if you want.  Just see me after the awards.  

But that does bring up something.  If you just come to our events for the competition, which is something I can respect, would you like lower entry fees for the pros?  Would you rather not get ratings and also not pay $2 each to the PDGA?  Jon and I are going to run the Men's Open Division pretty much any way Brett wants us to, with the caveat that pros are sponsored by cash sponsors and amateurs sponsor themselves, but if you lobby Brett you can influence the call on entry fees and sanctioning.  

[Bruce Brakel]

Terry, I think you are spot on especially in your last sentence. I think our IOS tournaments are a means to get to the sponsorship where we can offer pros something. Only time will tell, but I think increasing the ranks of interested and involved amateurs is the road to real pro sponsorship.

What happened with the $250.00 from Hot Rags? Did that sponsorship money get added to the pros? If not what happen to it?

At the preference of Hot Rags the sponsorship was distributed pro rata to all divisions in ways that all players in those divisions would have a chance to benefit.  The pros accounted for for x% of the players so they got X% in Hot Rags Cash CTPs.  Anyone can win a CTP.  The amateur portion was given out in the Flight Life game that we did both days.  We gave out about 35 Flight Life discs that way.  These games consumed  about $225 of the $250.  I unilaterally spent the rest by transferring the left over Hot Rags stamped discs to the Throw Discraft Player Pack program.  We could have had a jumbo toss for five discs, but it was a long day. 

[Mike Clark]

Terry, I think you are spot on especially in your last sentence. I think our IOS tournaments are a means to get to the sponsorship where we can offer pros something. Only time will tell, but I think increasing the ranks of interested and involved amateurs is the road to real pro sponsorship.

What happened with the $250.00 from Hot Rags? Did that sponsorship money get added to the pros? If not what happen to it?

At the preference of Hot Rags the sponsorship was distributed pro rata to all divisions in ways that all players in those divisions would have a chance to benefit.  The pros accounted for for x% of the players so they got X% in Hot Rags Cash CTPs.  Anyone can win a CTP.  The amateur portion was given out in the Flight Life game that we did both days.  We gave out about 35 Flight Life discs that way.  These games consumed  about $225 of the $250.  I unilaterally spent the rest by transferring the left over Hot Rags stamped discs to the Throw Discraft Player Pack program.  We could have had a jumbo toss for five discs, but it was a long day. 

Why do ams need added cash? Ams should be helping to support the sport? Pros are what bring attention to the almost all sports. All sports a supported by amatuers. Directly or indirectly. And by support I do not mean that any portion of their entry fee should be givin back to the pros. But any sponsorship money should be givin to the pros IMHO. I don't play pro and I think that they should be getting any added cash at any tournaments. If it is a merch donation fine that is for ams. But cash should be for pros. That is how they make a living playing the sport.

[widiscgolf]

I have to agree with Terry.  The tour has definately brought me out on weekends to have a great time and to meet awesome people. The concerns need to be directed to the PDGA board; cause I'm seeing the majority of the concerns coming from AM's talking about payouts; when in fact the PDGA has flattened out payouts this year I believe.  Simple solution play Open there would be no questions about it.  I will be next year regardless if I better'd myself or not.  Have to pay your dues and it's time to learn from the big boys....

Josh

The Wisconsin Tour has become a pretty big staple in the Midwest and I am a direct product of it (take that as good or bad:)).  It was the Wisconsin Tour that allowed me to host my first ever Fox Valley Open in 1999 which was not my first TD experience but it was my first sanctioned TD experience.  I have since then run probably 75-100 various events throughout the years. 

Other things I know the Wisconsin Tour has done:

1)  Provided a place for people like Barry Schultz to come up through the ranks and then move onto the national and world scene (I hear he's pretty good these days)

2)  Gives organized events to people all over the state.  We have events that range from Eau Claire to Kenosha to Appleton to Telemark.  That's pretty much covers MOST of the entire state.

3)  It gives a system for people to track their goals and accomplishments.  Everyone knows that finishing in the top of the Wisconsin Tour at the end of the year is a serious accomplishment.

4)  We have the 'coveted black disc' which is something that mean seem silly to others but World Champions like Des and Cam Todd have also won these discs and thought the idea was unique and held a special place in their heart.

5)  Other greats like Jay and Des really got their tournament start by coming to Wisconsin Tour events.  I think we must have been doing something right if we could consistantly draw a crowd from Iowa.  They (amongst others) love many of our courses and the people that do so much work to make them happen. 

6)  The Wisconsin Tour has also had even OTHER people come through and get their start.  Let me know if any of these ring a bell, Keith Warren, Chris Heeren, Aaron Wield or Mike Schwieger to name a few.  I'm not turning this into a "our state is better than any other state" but it is apparent that our good courses and well-run events are doing some good for many people. 

7)  I have hit on it before that our WI Tour has helped contribute to over 20 new baskets being placed throughout the state.  If it wasn't for things like our Badger State Games being well-attended or our proven success with outings, we certainly would NOT be where we are today.  If the WI Tour hadn't been what it is today there would be no way the '98 or the '07 Am Worlds would be held in Wisconsin either.

  Last but not least, the WI Tour has given thousands of people constructive things to do with their time and weekends.  I played in my first WI Tour event when I was about 14.  Just a few years later I was attending Am Worlds in Augusta, GA.  Many people have turned the passion of playing disc golf into part time hobbies, part time jobs, and even FULL time jobs.  What more could one ask for?

I'll also throw out the disclaimer that I'm not out here to argue or bash anyone or any style of doing things.  I guess we are just bringing to light the various differences in series, tournament directing, and styles.