For Rules Junkies Only

[damonshort]

Couple of interesting situations today in Joliet:

1) Player's drive lands into some murky water OB left of the basket. Disc is seen across the creek (in the water). Everyone in the group agrees this is the thrower's disc- it was the same color, the trajectory looked right, etc.) In the interest of speed of play, etc. player marks his lie at the OB point and completes the hole with the penalty stroke. (makes the putt for a 'circle 3'.)

Before going to the next tee, the disc is retrieved, and the player discovers that it's *not* his disc. We look for another couple of minutes and it's declared lost. Player goes back and retees. Completes the hole in 3 shots for a 'circle 5'. Everyone in the group is fine with the concept of the other shot from the creek bank as being a provisional, since everyone thought he was playing off the 'correct' disc. I'm not sure that's literally correct, but it certainly makes sense. (He took the 'circle 5', and again, everyone was fine with it, i.e. not tacking on another stroke for the first putt from the OB point. I guess you could say it's not a provisional unless you're calling it a provisional, but that seems silly in this case.)

2) Player putts uphill, the disc hits the lower basket, and takes a mad tournament roll directly back towards him. Player, to his great credit, frantically moves his bag out of the way *to let the disc keep rolling*. The bag was either to his side or in back of him when he putted. I mentioned after the hole that he wasn't obligated to do that, but he was sure that he was.

Now, 803.07 sez: "Players shall not stand or leave their equipment where interference with the flight or path of a disc could easily occur. The away player may require other players to mark their lies or move their equipment before making a throw if the player believes that either could interfere with his or her throw."

But if it's your own stuff, and it's not between the lie and the basket, I don't see how anyone can say that a 'tournament roll' can easily occur; if the bag was 'offline' when he putted, it should be considered part of the course. I think. And he was essentially 'calling it' on himself.

For that matter, 803.07 C continues: "Any player who consciously alters the course of a thrown disc...shall receive two penalty throws" - which is clearly ridiculous in this scenario.

I was 100% sure this afternoon. I'm about 90% now.

And I wasn't the thrower in either situation. 

[pickax]

In regards to the disc in the creek scenario. A throw cannot be a provisional throw unless one declares it to be a provisional throw. Since the hole was complete and it was later determined that the player threw from the wrong lie. It would either be +2 (803.10A). No need to go back and play the lost disc. A literalist would call those additional shots practice throws unless that sequence was declared to be a provisional since no one knew what the call should be. Another example where if the lost disc rule had been left alone it would not have mattered that the disc in the water was not his.

The rolling disc scenario has been argued ad nauseam on the PDGA message boards.
Rules Scenario
and
Interference, and responsibility for equipment

[can't putt]

Seems to me there was clear evidence that the disc went O.B. and the lie was determined by the flight path of the original disc ("the trajectory looked right").  I think it could be argued that the player did not, in fact, throw from the wrong lie.  IMO circle three should have stood.

[pickax]

My guess that this was hole #11at West Park. It is easy for a disc to go appear to go into the creek, but actually be past it and be lost in the weeds on the far side. I can understand waiting until the next hole to pick it up due to the difficulty in crossing. If the creek was muddy and it is possible for the disc to be in the water and not seen, I would agree the circle-3 should stand. If the far side of the creek was out of bounds, again circle-3. Though if past the creek is IB, the creek is clear, and his disc could not be found, it is a lost disc. Score 5 (3+2 for misplay).

[Dan Michler]

I think once he holed out, there is no going back to replay anything.  If he discovers it was played incorrectly then I think its a 2 throw penalty.

On a sidenote this exact situation happened to me at Channahon 2 years ago.  I threw a bright green orc DEEP into the woods on that long hole with the pin elevated on that plateau with the bricks surrounding it.
From where I find it, I have to hack twice just to get out, then end up with a 5.  I didnt throw that disc the rest of that tournament.  The next day I go to throw it and realize its got somebody else's name on it.  I thought it was pretty funny but this sucked because I would have been better off not finding the disc and playing it from the spot where we last saw it (the rule at the time) and taken an easy circle 4.

I did not call up Gary Lewis and tell him to retroactively add 2 strokes to my score for playing the wrong lie

[Bruce Brakel]

On the river disc above, I think playing from the approximate point of last in bounds is no penalty.  The thrower did not throw from another player's lie.  He threw from an incorrect approximated point of last in bounds based on the location of someone else's lost or abandoned disc.  So he committed  a marking violation, which is a warning on the first violation. 

If he declared his subsequent play of the hole to be a provisional series, you'd have to ask the TD for a ruling.  It sounds like he didn't and you didn't.  So those would be practice throws.

Since the group resolved it on the course and no one was intentionally cheating, I think at this point the five stands.    

[Bruce Brakel]

This is something we were talking about on Saturday.  We had exactly four foursomes on our course for the first round because the pros were on the Monster and the Advanced players were at the Tobbogan, so it was just the women and old amateurs on the Original.  Walking out to our hole we all came to another hole first and someone said, "We could just start here."  Could we?  I suggested we just walk 300 feet further to our assigned starting hole because (a) I didn't know if starting on the wrong hole could be penalized and (b) I didn't know if the TD knew if it could be penalized. 

Looking for a rules interpretation on playing from the wrong disc, I found the answer.  It happened in Japan and someone wrote for a rules interpretation.  That is a misplay of the course and a two throw penalty. 

[Chainmeister]

Even if finding the disc in the water wasn't his, it appears all thought he indeed went into the water.  You know, we usually never know for sure as the disc is in Davey Jones' locker.  I think He could have stood by his circle 3.  Given that all thought he was playing a provisional it woulld seem they should have thrown this at the TD who could then rule whether there was a circle 3 (ob) a circle 5 (lost).  The only mistake was not asking the TD but the only loser was the thrower who seems to have blown a chance at a 3. Hoever, if it was very unclear as to whether it really went in the water at all it might more  likely be lost and the 5 was correct. I agree with Bruce that all played within the spirit of the rules regardless of the outcome. 

I agree with Damon's version of fact situation # 2 except on a hole like #8 at Parkside where the so-called tournament roll is a common fact of life.

[Bruce Brakel]

On the rolling disc thing, I think it is unsportmanlike not to try to move your equipment if you see your disc rolling away from the basket toward your equipment.  If your disc is rolling toward my equipment and you were fine with it being there when you threw, I'm going to be really slow about moving my equipment because what if I try to move my equipment and in doing so I hit your disc and it rolls further? 

It was a rolling disc hitting the equipment that caused that player to lose it at Am Nationals last year and eventually get disqualified.  That was an interesting rules thing.  Both the TD and the Marshal overlooked their obligation to report the DQ for further disciplinary review.  [sweep]Maybe they just don't know the rules so well.[/sweep] 

[damonshort]

...so I went over to the linked thread on PDGA about the rolling disc and I guess I was wrong. apparently. my head was hurting after a few posts and I can't tell anymore. 

The funny thing about this: when this happened yesterday and the guy started running towards the rolling disc I actually thought he was trying to *stop* the disc with his foot until he reached down for his bag.

[discpro99]

i have a couple of things i need an explenation on. on hole 22 in west park there is a bathroom to the right of the fairway on that hole. one of the guys in my group was lucky enough to hit it dead center and bounce directly in the cove to walk in to the bathroom (some of you who played this weekend will know what cove im talking about). his disc was right up against the wall and its only an area of like 3 ft by 4ft. he could clearly not get a shot off with the area he had to work with. we had him play two shots from behind the bathroom where it entered, one being his 2nd shot and one being 3rd shot with a stroke penalty. he took a five on both lies so it didnt make much diffrence for him. does anyone have info on this as to what is the correct rule? secondly the fact that on the road was ob, but over the road was not didnt make any sense to me. the roads thru that park are terrible so there is no distinct line. what about alternate b, if you over drive that hole and cross the road you are ob, but on holes 19, 21 and 22 if you cross over the road your not ob and can play the lie with no penalty. any imput on this?

[pickax]

That bathroom cove is annoying. I'm so glad I haven't hit it yet. Absent any directions by the TD, one must play it from the cove. If he was up against the wall that was toward the tee, then he should be able to play immediately on the other side of the wall (803.04.E) with no penalty. But if he's up against any of the three other walls, then he would need to play from the mark. He may not have a great shot from there, but he should have been able to toss it up over the wall or out the door somehow. Alternatively, an unplayable lie could be taken (go back either 5m or to the tee, add a +1 penalty.)

Having him play two different shots from behind the bathroom cove seems strange if they were from the same lie. By taking a shot from behind the bathroom cove +1 would be equivalent to playing an unplayable lie.

[Dan Michler]

hey justin, a couple years ago someone actually went inside that bathroom when the door was open.

they had to just play it as it lied by pitching backward out of the bathroom.

i know wat u mean in that lilttle cove its like being up against a tree so u can't get a stance behind the disc, so like krupicka said, u would play it from the other side of the cove towards the tee.

[Bruce Brakel]

It depends on how Gary called that situation in the player's meeting.  Sometimes he says for the potty, play it where it lies.  Sometimes he says inside the alcove and inside the building is out of bounds.

If he said play it where it lies the player could either throw from where it landed or he could declare an unplayable and go back to the tee throwing three.  If Gary called it o.b., he would get a meter relief from where he was last in bounds and play with a one-throw penalty from there.  

Oh, and if it was up against the back wall so that the player could not physically possibly take a legal stance in the alcove, the player could play it under the solid obstacle rule and play from the other side of the wall. 

[pickax]

Most of the time, IMO OB areas should be defined as on or over the road. I could see on #10 at West Park sticking with just the road OB as it the "fairway" is narrow and it provides a nice little risk/reward scenario by allowing a larger landing area across the road. Ultimately defining OB is up to the TD, and they can do whatever they want. If the road was a creek, you probably wouldn't be asking, as it might more sense to many to define a creek OB, but the ground on the far side as IB. Again it's up to the TD.

[Mukey]

secondly the fact that on the road was ob, but over the road was not didnt make any sense to me. the roads thru that park are terrible so there is no distinct line. what about alternate b, if you over drive that hole and cross the road you are ob, but on holes 19, 21 and 22 if you cross over the road your not ob and can play the lie with no penalty. any imput on this?

If you cross the road, but are still in the park you are IN bounds. Over drive hole B and you'd be in someone's yard, out of the park is OB.  Ex: Hole #10. Right or left of the pavement you have to throw over, still in the park, IN bounds. Go past the basket & you're out of the park.

I agree that on-or-over for the roads would make that place more interesting.

[CEValkyrie]

I would love to see all roads & over at West Park be out of bounds.

I agree with Justin that it's very hard to determine where the road is. We had a problem on hole #16. There is very little grass, lots of dirt, gravel, & patches of road. Without a paint line it's impossible to determine.

[damonshort]

On Sunday he called the alcove OB, and the door was locked anyhow. I don't know if it came up on Saturday.

(incidentally, everyone knows the old rock song "There's a Bathroom on The Right", right? or is it "There's a Bad Moon on the Rise".....)

[Chainmeister]

On Sunday he called the alcove OB, and the door was locked anyhow. I don't know if it came up on Saturday.

(incidentally, everyone knows the old rock song "There's a Bathroom on The Right", right? or is it "There's a Bad Moon on the Rise".....)

Lets say Gary doesn't mention anything about OB.  Lets say the door is open.  The disc flies in.  The disc falls...well you know where...   

[Tom McManus]

On Sunday he called the alcove OB, and the door was locked anyhow. I don't know if it came up on Saturday.

(incidentally, everyone knows the old rock song "There's a Bathroom on The Right", right? or is it "There's a Bad Moon on the Rise".....)

Lets say Gary doesn't mention anything about OB.  Lets say the door is open.  The disc flies in.  The disc falls...well you know where...   

Then the disc would be just like my game.  In the toilet.