Intermediate players and rules

[can't putt]

I've been noticing a LOT of rules infractions in Intermediate, mostly regarding downed limbs and schule.  There seems to be a broad misconception that anything can be moved out of the way between your lie and the hole as long as it's dead.  I observed a discussion on hole 2 (old course) yesterday where a player had thrown behind a large limb that was possibly still partly attached to a tree.  Two players were scrutinizing the limb to see if it was dead.  I resolved the issue by telling them it didn't matter, it can't be moved as it is between the lie and the hole.  In another instance, a disc came to rest about 3 feet into the schule.  The player improperly marked his lie on the edge of the disc closest to the fairway which was 90° off the line of play.  He then placed his foot outside the edge of his mini to give himself another 4 inches or so.  The accumulated error plus his stretch allowed him a clear straddle putt to the basket.  I was able to correct him before he threw, since he never moved the original disc.  His putt was now obstructed and he missed.  Also, a lot of Intermediates back into brush and hold branches out of their way.  I'm sure the same is true in Rec.  I'm not sure what the resolution is to this problem, but encourage everyone to clarify the rules for those who don't seem to understand.  I know this is not often fun, but in the end makes the game more fair for everyone.  Just my 2¢.

[Chainmeister]

Of course this stuff happens in Rec.  More often than in intermediate.  Its actually better  in AM IV as we generally have more experienced but  less proficient golfers. (sorry about the slam my AM IV brethren and sistren) I was with a group of relatively inexperienced players first round.  I reminded them of rules issues such as using a mini, taking 3 minutes to search for a lost disc etc as we went on.  However, I did see some holding of the brush to allow a shot to get out of the woods.  I did not call it and  should have.  I esepecially thought about it as I was torquing my body into a strange  position to allow me to get a shot over some brush and thinking I was the only guy nearby who cared whether the brush was thrown over or smooshed under. I also held off from telling the guy who was on the cell phone, apparently working out an issue with his girlfiriend, for much of the round.  He wasn't distracting or loud, but certainly was innaprpriate.  It was a mistake to let that one go but I was just trying to focus on my own game.

Most players, including the ones I was with, react very positively when rules issues are brought up in a teaching manner rather than an aggresive manner. However, There are times when the blind are leading the blind in lower divisions because nobody on the card really knows what to do. 

There really aren't enough volunteers or staff at IOS events to send marshalls out onto the course.  However, when we go to Jericho and Fairfield this might be a decent idea.  Get a handful of pro/advanced players to walk the course at least during the morning rounds to marshall the course. Ask the players on Int/Rec day to pitch in an extra 50 cents or a dollar to go towards buying lunch for the volunteers.

[Jon Brakel]

Backing into the woods, tromping down of stuff in the way, fudging the foot at the mark, etc. all happen in every division. It even happens in the elite pro ranks. You just have to call people when they do it.

[Dan Michler]

its tough to call people on rules infractions during a round.  you risk creating an awkward or hostile situation which can totally mess with your focus for the rest of your round.  i usually save it for situations which are extreme or ones where i know the whole group is on the same page. 

that being said, its better if you nut up and call people on a rules infraction if you see it.  its the only real way to teach some people that the rules actually are followed by some players.

another one i thought of is the clock on your 3 minutes to search for a lost disc isn't supposed to start until all players are helping search.  i've had several dudes who for whatever reason dont' think they need to help look, but are the 1st to speak up and say its been 3 minutes.

[tacimala]

I'm with Dan on the part that it could make for a very awkward and possibly hostile situation after the fact. I tend to make mention of it after the fact as a casual warning over an official warning so that it doesn't break concentration or create a weird situation. I've never had to take it further than that and I think everyone improves when it is handled in a similar fashion.

[WkeBrd3]

Another thing I noticed yesterday in the morning: Hole 17 was a CTP for a club membership. A guy in my group parked that hole. His disc was maybe a foot and a half away from the pole, however, the flag was about 6 inches from the hole, with a name already on it. No big deal. Well we continue playing, and after we play 18 and the alternates and get back to hole 1 or 2 (whichever hole was right next to it) we notice that the flag has been moved. It was now about 5 feet away. What the hell? Now granted, the eventual winner won with a leaner, but who would move the flag farther away from a previous persons CTP? This couldn't have been an individual thing. The whole group must have seen this happen.

[can't putt]

I agree with Dan's comment as well.  David makes a valid point, though, that rules infractions pointed out in a teaching manner are usually well recieved.  I suspect in Open and Advanced this may be less the case as the players are likely more familiar with the rules.  I don't think we should lose the opportunity to educate in Int. and Rec.  I don't advocate being a rules nazi, but rather a rules teacher.

[Jon Brakel]

I don't believe I've ever stroked anyone for anything during play. I have called a few foot faults usually knowing that they aren't going to get seconded in Rec or Int. The first time I ever played with David I told him after he threw his second drive on 18 at Fairfield that he wasn't hitting his mark on his fairway run ups. But I didn't officially warn him because I knew he was making an effort to hit it. I sometimes call foot faults when someone who keeps missing their mark or tee pad throws a really bad shot. The penalty for the first foot fault is a warning and re-throw so if someone seconds it, it is a reminder/learning experience and a mulligan at the same time. My usual line when playing Rec though is "As you play more tournaments you may get grouped with someone who is really particular about the rules. So, you should know that [insert rules violation here] is against the rules and [whatever the penalty is] is the penalty for doing it." I've told quite a few Rec players this when they fail to hole out (by slapping the chains or touching the side of the basket) on the next tee pad. This tells the player two things: 1) You know the rules and 2) You're watching them. If they were actually trying to cheat this usually stops it dead. If they did not know they appreciate the rules lesson and that I did not officially call them on it.

[Chainmeister]

I agree that there is no need to stroke somebody unless something is repeated.  I had no desire to stroke anybody yesterday.  I think I missed the teaching moement to tell the others about a rules infraction because I was too tied up in my own game. Jon,and others have done the same with me.  I think I am strongly left side dominant.  I know I am left eyed and know I am left handed.  I have tended to step about 9" to the left of my mark when doing a run up.  Their gentle advisements have helped me hit my mark.  I think the issue is even a bigger deal in junior divisions.  There are widely varied impressions of what the rules really say.  Further, a really young and small player may feel too intimidated to make a call or may make the call but get overrulled by a group that is incorrect.

[pickax]

In most cases, a foot fault gets an extra unofficial warning because no one is watching and therefore their are no seconds.  Dave had been consistently missing his mark on run-ups and started being called on it. He worked on hitting it and now he hits it every time. Many times if you talk to someone politely on the side and explain the rules, they get it. Often times I have had to explain the rules on practice throws, taking 1m in from OB, etc. Pretty much they all have been appreciative. The only time it has been tense was when I asked someone if what they were smoking was illegal and if so to put it away. Fortunately, about half a hole later they apologized for having put me in that position to say something.

On the 3 minutes for lost disc,"Two players or an official must note when the timing of three minutes begins."(803.11.A) You can't say it's been three minutes if no one started a timer or noted the time. If players are requested to help look for a disc and refuse, it is grounds for a courtesy warning(801.01C).

I watched the Junior card for a hole when we were near them during the first round yesterday and asked Diana if that was a casual as one kid was throwing (w/o marking his lie) ahead of the others still on the teepad. I really wish we had an extra knowledgeable volunteer to walk with the Juniors so that they learn the game correctly.

[Chainmeister]

On the 3 minutes for lost disc,"Two players or an official must note when the timing of three minutes begins."(803.11.A) You can't say it's been three minutes if no one started a timer or noted the time. If players are requested to help look for a disc and refuse, it is grounds for a courtesy warning(801.01C).

We had one of these yesterday.  I intentionally lolligaged my way over to the area where the disc went out to give the guy more time.  I got there looked for a very short while and then said three minutes were running.  The others really didn't reply.  When a little over three minutes had run and nobody would say the guy got shortchanged, I called it.  He had no problem re-throwing. He was just bummed because he really didn't want to lose his disc. Everybody looked, nobody found. Even the guy on the cell phone looked while continuing his conversation.

[tree]

Yesterday I played with 2 inexperienced players who didn't know that there were such detailed rules. I used it as a teaching experience. There were actions that they tried hard to change and there were others that were habits that kept popping up every few holes, especially in the afternoon when we were all tired. After reminding them both about different infractions, I decided to let it go. I didn't want to win because of penalty strokes (that may be an exaggeration.....I didn't keep track of  the number of infractions).

My point is, if players aren't informed of the rules, they can't learn them. Jon taught me rules of tournament play right away and I started practicing them, even though I was playing by myself so that following the rules was second nature.

[J.R.]

Another thing I noticed yesterday in the morning: Hole 17 was a CTP for a club membership. A guy in my group parked that hole. His disc was maybe a foot and a half away from the pole, however, the flag was about 6 inches from the hole, with a name already on it. No big deal. Well we continue playing, and after we play 18 and the alternates and get back to hole 1 or 2 (whichever hole was right next to it) we notice that the flag has been moved. It was now about 5 feet away. What the hell? Now granted, the eventual winner won with a leaner, but who would move the flag farther away from a previous persons CTP? This couldn't have been an individual thing. The whole group must have seen this happen.

We started on hole 15 and when we got to 17, the CTP flag had a name on it and it was not stuck in the ground but laying under the basket.  We had no idea what to make of it, but since none of us qualified anyway, we didn't worry about it.  Something weird happened.

[Dan Michler]

guther's group threw the exact wrong direction off of a teepad the 2nd round and holed out on another basket.  they had to continue playing from the basket they holed out on back to the basket they should have been playing to.  so they made a 330 foot hole into a 550 foot hole after already taking 2-3 shots.

i'm only telling this story because it was so awesome and because it was Guther which makes it that much more awesome   

[J.R.]

I agree with you Kurt on the number of rules violations.  I felt there were more yesterday than at IOS 1 or 3 (at least in my morning group).  They thought you could move a picnic table if it was in your way.  Then a few holes later irony struck and my disc landed directly under a picnic table.  They said I could take it 5 feet behind the lie.  And then they didn't believe me that unplayable lie got a penalty stroke. Later a guy threw his mini.  I think maybe there were more people there yesterday who don't regularly play tournaments.  But I actually mentioned to someone after the round that I felt like I had seen more rules violations.  All of them were innocent cases of not knowing the rules.  I didn't see anyone try to cheat.  

Anyway, I would just add from the other perspective my experience as a noob.  Last fall I played my first PDGA tournament.  On one hole after I missed my putt I picked up my approach disc and tossed it back to my bag.  I didn't think anything of it since it was only like 10 feet and it was direclty away from the basket.  Younk was on my card and I thought he handled it really well.  He was kind enough not to stroke me for it.  He just asked if it was my first tournament and when I said it was he told me that that was not allowed.  He used the "I don't care, but others you play with might call you on it" tact as mentioned above.  I truly did appreciate it and felt a bit silly for not knowing the rules.  I think most of these people are where I was less than a year ago and the gentle educational approach will be greeted positively almost every time.  I even think that event was part of what made me click on the Rules link on Pdga.com the next time I saw it.

[Jon Brakel]

Note that this was Greg Guther's group, not Steven Guther's group. I started a thread to discuss the rule at pdga.com. http://www.pdga.com/msgboard/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=711874&Main=711874#Post711874. Personally I think the rule is too harsh in that situation. I think it was written for situations where you hole out on a target that is near the real target. Then you would throw an upshot and hit your putt for a two stroke penalty. I think that rule should be rewritten so that if the group realizes what they've done before the next tee off then they should play the correct hole and add a two throw penalty and throw out the score for the unintentionally made up hole.

[mirth]

I was on Steven's card the second round & he went out of his way to point out he wasn't THAT Guther. Seemed fairly pleasant to play with.

[Jon Brakel]

Another thing I noticed yesterday in the morning: Hole 17 was a CTP for a club membership. A guy in my group parked that hole. His disc was maybe a foot and a half away from the pole, however, the flag was about 6 inches from the hole, with a name already on it. No big deal. Well we continue playing, and after we play 18 and the alternates and get back to hole 1 or 2 (whichever hole was right next to it) we notice that the flag has been moved. It was now about 5 feet away. What the hell? Now granted, the eventual winner won with a leaner, but who would move the flag farther away from a previous persons CTP? This couldn't have been an individual thing. The whole group must have seen this happen.

We started on hole 15 and when we got to 17, the CTP flag had a name on it and it was not stuck in the ground but laying under the basket.  We had no idea what to make of it, but since none of us qualified anyway, we didn't worry about it.  Something weird happened.

If I had to guess I would say that the flag probably blew/fell over then blew on the ground out past five feet of the hole and the next group just figured it was close to where is was supposed to be and marked it. We had some weird wind at tournament central yesterday. It wasn't blowing very hard but then about a half dozen times we had a huge burst of wind that sent the bug spray cans, sun screen cans and other objects that are normally stationary flying across TC.

If anyone wants to walk with the Jrs at any of the IOS events we could compensate with a couple of discs or some brass. If a PDGA Official wanted to walk the course in an official capacity we could compensate in a similar manner.

[stpitner]

Another thing I noticed yesterday in the morning: Hole 17 was a CTP for a club membership. A guy in my group parked that hole. His disc was maybe a foot and a half away from the pole, however, the flag was about 6 inches from the hole, with a name already on it. No big deal. Well we continue playing, and after we play 18 and the alternates and get back to hole 1 or 2 (whichever hole was right next to it) we notice that the flag has been moved. It was now about 5 feet away. What the hell? Now granted, the eventual winner won with a leaner, but who would move the flag farther away from a previous persons CTP? This couldn't have been an individual thing. The whole group must have seen this happen.

We started on hole 15 and when we got to 17, the CTP flag had a name on it and it was not stuck in the ground but laying under the basket.  We had no idea what to make of it, but since none of us qualified anyway, we didn't worry about it.  Something weird happened.

If I had to guess I would say that the flag probably blew/fell over then blew on the ground out past five feet of the hole and the next group just figured it was close to where is was supposed to be and marked it. We had some weird wind at tournament central yesterday. It wasn't blowing very hard but then about a half dozen times we had a huge burst of wind that sent the bug spray cans, sun screen cans and other objects that are normally stationary flying across TC.

If anyone wants to walk with the Jrs at any of the IOS events we could compensate with a couple of discs or some brass. If a PDGA Official wanted to walk the course in an official capacity we could compensate in a similar manner.

Ok, I can explain a little bit more on what happened with the CTP for hole #17.  It was moved because of Greg Guther's group in the morning round (a group that I was a part of, but just for the laugh factor I say it was Greg's group).  Another player that was playing on hole 2 told us after seeing our lies that the flag was actually not marking a CTP lie and that we should move it.  I did not look at the flag myself (to see if there was anything written on it), but the other guys decided to give the CTP to the guy in (Greg's) group that was the closest.  My thoughts are that the guy that was on hole 2 saw it much earlier when he played 17 where it was just laying down and not marking anything, was now at hole 2 (6 holes later), and thought that it was still down.  The CTP flag was being blown around a little bit, but it was all very confusing at that moment.  Since (Greg's) group thought that the other player knew what he was talking about, the flag was moved.

I'm glad that it all worked out in the end.

[stpitner]

During the playoff for first place in AM IV, we were on the 3rd playoff hole, and I had already missed my shot at the deuce.  Then Bill went up for his putt, but after he marked and took away his drive (which was pretty much parked, only 6-8 feet away), he tossed his driver disc back to his bag.  Suddenly it flashed through my mind that I should call that as a practice throw on him and try to make him take a stroke and move on to the next playoff hole.  I decided not to call it because it was my own fault for missing a 5-8 foot putt on the last hole of the round causing me to be in the playoff for first place as it was, so I wasn't going to do something ticky-tack to try to work to my advantage.  Plus I don't know if he could have been stroked or just warned.  It's too bad that all 3 of us couldn't go home with a trophy disc, but I do know that I'll proudly display the 2nd place trophy right next to the 1st place one.  Besides - the blue on the 2nd place trophy looks cooler than the red/yellow mix on the 1st place trophy   The only thing I didn't get to go do was to go home and proudly show the pitner brother's taking 1st in Am IV and Rec, ah well!