Intermediate players and rules

[mirth]

define 'tossed his driver back to his bag'

[stpitner]

as in, the bag was probably about 5-10 feet away, he stepped towards the bag (away from the lie) after picking up the disc and threw it (like a normal disc throw, not flipped or anything like that) back to his bag.  It wasn't like the Cale spike... but I do know that he was probably not thinking clearly as he obviously knew that all he had to do was make a short putt and he won the division.

Mike K- you probably witnessed it, but if it was something that could be considered a practice throw, my feeling is that you weren't going to call it unless I did.  I opted not to.

[Jon Brakel]

First a practice throw has to be over 2 meters or toward the basket so it sounds like this was not a violation.

Practice Throw: During a round, the
projection of a disc of a distance greater
than two meters, or of any distance
toward a target, intentional or not, which
does not change the player's lie, either
because it did not occur from the teeing
area or the lie, or because the player had
already thrown competitively from the
teeing area or the lie. Throws that are rethrown
in accordance with the rules are
not practice throws. Provisional throws
made pursuant to 803.01 C and 803.01
D (3) are not practice throws. A player
shall receive a penalty for a practice throw
in accordance with sections 803.01 B or
804.02 A (2).

[pickax]

I admit I was walking back to tourney central and watched from a distance to verify the outcome. But at 5 ft, he was ok.

[J.R.]

I have a question.  803.01 B says that the violation must be observed by at least two players or an official (I assume other rules have a similar requirement).  In a two person playoff how do you call someone out by yourself, or should there always be an official in such cases?

[pickax]

At Rockford it was a three way tie for AMIV. Usually if there is a two person playoff, an additional person is sent with the group to take care of those duties.

[stpitner]

alright, cool, then I don't have to feel bad about it.  It did go in a direction away from the basket, so all is good

[Bruce Brakel]

Without actually looking at the rules, I'm remembering that a practice throw during the round is a stroke without a warning.  A practice throw after the two minute warning but before the round starts is a warning first with a stroke for any subsequent offense. 

A guy in my group landed a putt on top of the basket, walked up, and putted out by placing his mini in the basket.  I did not call it as a rules violation because that sort of thing does not affect the score, but I did tell him not to do that with strangers at Worlds where everyone is always wound way too tight.

I've heard about foot faults being called in Am IV.  Diana had one on the New Course where she was like three steps past the flags and she took the call in an appropriate way.  We've been playing a couse that had front flags and back flags until recently when they put in concrete tees and she probably thought in a heat strokey way that the flags were the back flags. 

This happened to me back in the Year of the Safari and then again this year at Am Nats.  A guy slipped off the end of the tee and got a horrible throw.  Seeing the horrible throw I quickly called the foot fault.  Instead of seconding it the guy got all huffy that I'd be calling him for a foot fault on what was already a horrible throw.  :-)  So I didn't bother to explain the rule to either of those guys.  But at Am Nats, a couple of holes later I slipped off the tee and got a horrible throw.  Another guy in my group called the foot fault on me.  I waited for a second for someone to second it, no one did, so I seconded it and took my rethrow with the warning.  I told the guy who called it, "I assume you called that for my benefit, but if I foot fault again, I'll take the stroke penalty, so don't hesitate to call it against me."  I told my scorekeeper to mark the warning section of the rulebook with a foot fault, too. 

[Mukey]

I understand the "don't want to make an awkward situation on the course" argument for not hitting people up with rules, but screw that, especially in Intermediate. I had to call a guy at Geneseo for several things he was doing, and didn't feel too bad about it at all. That crap is for Rec players. If you're playing PDGA tournaments in Int. you should know the damn rules, period.

Gotta say I love the whole dead limbs can be moved, regardless of place. What a joke. You can't move anything between your lie & the hole, living or dead. 

[stpitner]

just out of curiosity, I was on some random hole at Rockford, and I was in a tight spot just inside a bush area.  I approached my lie from the side (really the only way to approach it), and for those that have met me you all know that I'm a big guy.  As I'm angling in there, a branch breaks either on my back or my head (I forget).  It was completely incidental, and no one was really paying attention to me anyway.  The sideways angle I was coming in from would have placed the branch to the side and barely in front of my lie.  Would something like this get me in trouble with some people or would it be called as not intentional?  Any smaller size guy would have no problem getting a foot in behind the lie, so it's not like it was really an unplayable lie.

*sigh* so tough to make black and white lines in a grayscale world.

[pickax]

Damaging the course on purpose is a 2 throw penalty with a chance for DQ. In your case, that does not apply as it was inadvertent. Also, an unplayable lie can only be called by the player taking the lie. No one else can force you to take it.

From your description you were ok. Next time, just don't throw there. 

[discmonkey]

I had a few rules issues crop up this weekend. 

On Sunday, second round, a guy in my group got the 50/50 CTP.  When marking his drive, someone in our group said to "make sure you mark your drive with your mini and then mark in front of your mini, it gives you like an extra 6 inches".  The other 2 of us in the group corrected this, but the guy was dead serious and surprised you couldn't do that.

On Saturday, I took a six on a hole.  I know another in my group got a six, I am sure of it.  He called out five.  I couldn't remember where all six of his shots were exactly because I was busy making six of my own.  I do know that we alternated throws, though.  I've had this happen before more than once.  I hate cheaters.

On Sunday, in the second round where there are lots of tees and baskets within earshot of each other, there was an adjacent group that refused to shut up while we were teeing off.  We commented more than loud enough for them to hear.  They kept talking, very loudly.  Two of us shanked our drives because of an outburst right as we were throwing.  We were having too much fun (thanks to both groups on Sunday for a great time!) to really worry about it so we moved on, but WTF.

I guess if I was more competetive, I'd care more, but I figure that Karma is a bitch and it all evens out in the end.

[pickax]

On Saturday, I took a six on a hole.  I know another in my group got a six, I am sure of it.  He called out five.  I couldn't remember where all six of his shots were exactly because I was busy making six of my own.  I do know that we alternated throws, though.  I've had this happen before more than once.  I hate cheaters.

If you are not sure that they said the correct score, the best thing to do is ask, "Are you sure?" and talk through the hole with the player to check. (You drove and landed where? then what?) Even if you can't be sure on that hole. You can be certain that he won't try it again as he would be aware that someone is paying attention.

[Mukey]

This is like voting. Speak up when you have the chance or you can't bitch.

[mirth]

Yeah. It may be an honest mistake too... I think it was Saturday I was corrected on a hole & after rethinking my shots thru I agreed and thanked dude.

[WkeBrd3]

On Saturday, I took a six on a hole.  I know another in my group got a six, I am sure of it.  He called out five.  I couldn't remember where all six of his shots were exactly because I was busy making six of my own.  I do know that we alternated throws, though.  I've had this happen before more than once.  I hate cheaters.

If you are not sure that they said the correct score, the best thing to do is ask, "Are you sure?" and talk through the hole with the player to check. (You drove and landed where? then what?) Even if you can't be sure on that hole. You can be certain that he won't try it again as he would be aware that someone is paying attention.

I had that happen last IOS at Crystal Lake, and a simple "Are you sure?" was all it took for the guy to figure out he was wrong. After the conversation, I was pretty sure he just forgot and wasn't trying to cheat. Sometimes, people do make honest mistakes.

[J.R.]

At the Roselle tournament Jon, in his heat exhausted state, miscounted a score on a hole.  I asked him if he was sure and he recounted, changed it and thanked me.  It helped that I knew Jon (at least from the boards and as a TD) and knew he wouldn't cheat.  In short, I agree with krupika's approach.  Cheaters won't try it again and honest people will appreciate it.

[airspuds]

ok got a question  (  too lazy to look up)

playing in threesome and a girlfriend is keeping the score
---------

now when i keep score i go next to the person and announce their  name, they say their score and i move on to the next guy
now most of the time - shouldnt you announce the order also before the card goes back in bag
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now back to the issue -  say ive been going first for 4-5 holes in a row
the score keeper asks the scores and i miss the fact someone had a better score than i did
i go up and drive out of turn

what is the penalty ?

am i to blame or does blame lie with the scorekeeper who should be announcing the order ? 

[can't putt]

Throwing out of turn is a courtesy violation.  The first instance is a warning and subsequent courtesy violations of any type are strokes.  There is no stipulation that the scorekeeper must announce the order, although many do and it is appreciated.

[Bruce Brakel]

Stroking someone for throwing out of order is really stupid.  Never go there.  In all the years I've played tournaments I've never seen anyone stroke anyone for throwing out of order but in Iowa some guy on the first tee threatened to stroke me if I threw out of order.  He played like crap the rest of the day.