Intermediate Masters

[Bruce Brakel]

As seen on pdga.com...

Any tournament director who wants to offer this division can. At the Illinois State Championships Gary Lewis offered it as a shadow division within the Intermediate division, awarding a state championship trophy to the best shooting Int Master.

If I thought there was a need and a demand for it, I'd run it the way I ran Am IV, but as a shadow division within Am Master. That way the am masters could play with the am masters and the lower rated ones could compete against the lower rated ones. If Barrish, Mitch and the others wanted to do this, I'd tell them to play trophy-only Am Masters, and then I'd sell the ringleader some discounted Brass. Any one of them could run it and i wouldn't have to do any extra work.

What I was saying there was, if someone responsible wanted to promote and organize this, they could play trophy-only in the Am Master division.  They'd have to tell me in advance to make a trophy.  They would have to collect the sidebet entry fee and use it to buy the trophy and the Brass.  And they'd have to do a reasonably fair payout similar to the PDGA charts. 

It would be entirely player organized, player run, Bruce facilitated, so it would not make any extra work for the tournament staff.  I would be happy to help the ring leader identify his target market and do a mass mailing.  That is how I kick started Am IV from "never heard of it" to ten players at IOS #1 in 2007. 

I would not expect Am IVs to step up and run a player organized Am IV shadow division.  Am Masters are different.  You're older, more experienced and have developed more leadership skills than the average low rated disc golfer.  If the lower rated am Masters wanted ratings based age protected competition, someone would have to step up and be trained to run the thing. 

Am IV was fun this year but it complicated the leaderboard for the tournament staff and made it really hard to do the financials for the rec division.  The PDGA has relieved me of that burden and I'm not picking it up again. 

[Chainmeister]

Nothing against the old AM IV crowd or the upcoming Enthusiasts but this might be intriguing.  I would be interested mainly due to schedule. .   If I can play on Saturday I will do so Enthusiastically.  If I have to play Sunday I might be interested in an Int Master Sidebet thingy  I would still lose but not by as much as in regular GM or M.  Is there any interest in this?  Does this appeal to any other retarded elders?

[Working Stiff]

I would be an Intermediate Master if the division still existed, but it doesn't change much for me to play Advanced Master.  Sure, you have the baggers who took amnesty, but baggers don't bother me much.  I wasn't cashing in Intermediate Masters anyway.  After one round I end up on a card with the same guys I would have been playing with in Intermediate Masters.  If someone promoted a side bet that did not effect what card I was on in the first round, I'd probably pass.

[can't putt]

Tough call.  This time last year I would have answered with a resounding "yea" but the new division structure kind of splits what I still think of as "intermediate" in two.  I'm thinking next year I'll stay home in Adv. GM, depending on how many make the same decision.  Could change, though ... or maybe not ... still ...

[skipache]

i think we have too many divisions already, i believe that 4 , 50 person divisions would be better than 20 , ten person divisions, i mean i guess "expert fills a gap but in my mind it just splits tyhe field even smaller

[Bruce Brakel]

For purposes of PDGA points, a shadow division for intermediate masters would make the Am Master division larger.  For purposes of payout, it would make the division smaller. 

[Jon Brakel]

Expert fills a niche by effectively putting a cap on big merch payouts for really high rated ams. For people that think that really high rated ams are not turning pro because they are getting really big merch payouts, then Expert fixes that situation. Presumably since the field will be smaller in Expert and the payout smaller then those Ams will start playing pro. Ams can also play pro next year and accept prizes instead of cash which may also encourage high rated ams to move up to pro.

[airspuds]

my reason for asking about an INT masters division again was selfish

how does it benefit me ?

original thought was that i would be playing with guys my own age
and that i would be avoiding the kids/young adults that dont know all the rules and
who can throw a disc a mile or through a brick wall who also play every day

what i didnt see is that it would be a small division like adv master (smaller numbers)

my game is going to be the same no matter who i play with
( or it should be in theory) and i should think that way during the round

if there was a side bet for masters  during the round amongst the INT then there is
motivation for the int master to have something to play for

again i was looking at what the adv or disadv was for me

i like the way gary did it - but the benefits of that were not obvious at the time both at mokena and channahon

now i get it

i should continue to play INT as i do like playing with a wide group of people - in general - and should run a
side bet for over 40 guys as something else to play for in the round

i think that would solve the issue of having the feeling of not being able to cash when playing
the side bet would give me something to play for

i think the new divisions will help, the non-pdga sandbaggers will take a bigger hit now, so people should be
playing where they should be playing

also if i practice more then my overall game should get better

I m lookng forward to ratings as i have played in several events ( lets hope the Homie T gets included)
i think that will motivate me to get a little better as i struggled in most of the events
my putting for sure was not where it should be

off to work now

[damonshort]

i like the way gary did it - but the benefits of that were not obvious at the time both at mokena and channahon

He did it at the Lumber Cup (lower day) too, but they didn't have the system down yet. Not everybody marked their card as such (I did), and Gary stood around for about 5 min calling out, "Did anybody over 40 beat Damon's score?" 

No one did, and it's a nice trophy. Payout was better than what I would've gotten in straight int. I actually cashed in GM the next day too (but no trophy); nice weekend.

I'd probably pass on a sidebet unless it were a big pot and I was feeling confident. 

[skipache]

"i would be avoiding the kids/young adults that dont know all the rules and
who can throw a disc a mile or through a brick wall who also play every day"

/quote]

Ill make sure to study my rule book...thanks

[can't putt]

He was referring to Intermediate and Rec., Jason.  A great many players in the lower divisions have some very wrong assumptions regarding the rules.

[Working Stiff]

Expert fills a niche by effectively putting a cap on big merch payouts for really high rated ams. For people that think that really high rated ams are not turning pro because they are getting really big merch payouts, then Expert fixes that situation. Presumably since the field will be smaller in Expert and the payout smaller then those Ams will start playing pro. Ams can also play pro next year and accept prizes instead of cash which may also encourage high rated ams to move up to pro.

I was really baffled by all the Open players who complained about this plan.  I think it is a thinly veiled attempt by the PDGA to get the top rated rated Ams to play Open, which is what all the Open players say they want.  The Expert players who want to play in a big division with a big payout will have to take thier chances with the big boys.  They can even take Merch and stay eligible for Am Worlds.  To me it seems like a great deal for the Open pros.  But, every Open player I've talked to hates it and complains about even more divisions for people to bag in.  I guess time will tell.

[Bruce Brakel]

Re: Expert.

Well, it isn't really a division to bag in, but is a division to stay Am in.  But now every division is a division to stay Am in with the new Ams Playing Pro rule.  And to the extent that the PDGA has adopted the division as a thinly veiled way to get Ams to move up, I think "Half-In" removes the veil completely! 

In an ideal ratings based system no one would have an incentive to bag or to move up prematurely.  And no one should feel like moving up at the appropriate time is going to ruin the competitive experience.  But there should be options for people who want to sponsor the better players some by playing with the better players.  That's why we have trophy-only options, half-in options, pros-playing-am rules and ams-playing-pro rules.  These permit everyone to compete against similarly rated opponents, play up some of the time, or risk less and enjoy the tournament more.  Whatever works for you. 

If you read the pros who complain on other threads, they are the yahoos who advocate that there should be one division with a cash payout for the top third.  Period.  In their fantasy world everyone would pony up for that format and the cash line would be somewhere at the bottom of Advanced.  That may be true in Sweden for reasons that are related to Swedish culture and values, but it is not true around here.  Those guys [the pros, not the Swedes] are just out of touch with reality.  The Swedes, on the other hand, having been culled in an environment that places a premium on communalism, are natural born conformists.  That's why no one has ever had to invade Sweden.  You tell them when the invasion is set for and they surrender a little early to make it more orderly. 

[Working Stiff]

I like the PDGA message board, but I have some friends who have a problem thinking independently.  They tend to hear about things like the competition changes, go to the message board, read what the highest-rated player they can find has to say and agree with them.  A lot of them are repeating the "donate to us" mantra that the Open players who did post on the subject adopted.  The other point of view has been championed by lower rated players, and of course you can't know anything if you can't play. 

As for half-in...I like it as a theory because I'm one of the whack-jobs who think that Ams should only play for trophies, and this would give that idea a chance to gain some following.

In practice half-in would force me as a TD to get trophies for every possible division and bring them along, which is a pain.  Even worse will be paying for them out of my own pocket.  When I TD'ed I ran two event a year.  I could have bought  Jr. Girls trophies and dragged them around for years before I needed them.  I'm a big advocate of TD's being able to be compensated for their efforts.  If I was a TD and I had to front all these trophies, I'd be taking the full price of all the trophies out of my expenses in the first event if I used the trophy or not.  I'm not going to wait until the next event or next year or whenever I finally get a Jr. Girls division to be reimbursed for those trophies.  That would hurt the payout at that first event and spawn those nasty "Greedy TD" comments I was always so fond of after I donated my time and efforts toward the event.

Half-in seems much more feasible if you are running a series, which you are.  You are more likely to use the trophies in a shorter time frame, you have more events to spread the expense over AND you will get a better trophy price break because you will be buying more of them.  The once or twice a year TD is going to find it a pain in the tuckus and more of a financial burden.

But, hey...somebody running six or eight events a year probably runs better events than the once or twice a year guy.  Players will figure that out.  Each TD should be responsible for running an event up to the standards their player expect, so I would not want to nay-say an idea based solely on protecting a guy who runs so-so events.

All of which has as much to do with Intermediate Maters as Sweden does.  Sorry for the drift.

[airspuds]

up way to early

ok looking at the old classifications from pdga.com - with my  rating  865  i should have played rec rather than int
there is no mention of the fact that as one gets older - skills might diminish
so even though i have played for several years - my rating doesnt reflect that as im still scoring alot

in the old system i would feel awkwark playing rec but thats up to me

also looking at INT ratings for winners at channahon - 7 out of top ten were 900 plus rated
so with the new ratings classifications = they will move up which encourages me

i hope that by next spring all the results for the T;s i played in will be included for ratings
of course the IOS results are final and in
thx

so looking forward - i ll be playing INT or ADV Master depending on the days
assuming my rating stays around the same level

but but but the INT division wont have 900 rated players playing
which i think is good

im going have to practice some more obviously

[Jon Brakel]

How does half-in change what you would do for trophies?

[Bruce Brakel]

I was thinking the same thing but decided to let it slide. 

[Working Stiff]

Not a thing.  I had some now forgotten question about half-in while also talking to somebody else about the Memorial and trophy-only options. That and reading e-mails about disc golf while I should have been working caused the wiring in my brain to cross the two subjects and I made no sense.

I had some question about half-in, but it's gone.  It wasn't that important anyway.