11/13/07 Ratings Update

[skipache]

winning isnt always based on whose thier and whose not i mean, Brett beat some 1000 rated guys, (not that he isnt almost there) to win the "Once in a Blue Moon Classic, it thats some ability to do that, well alot of ability

[OvEr HaNd AsSaSiN]

921 thats no good i kinda wanted to play INT for ever guess ill have to work on that.... It would be nice to have all my tourneys on there... Im missing 6 tourneys still and two of those i got first place.... guess ill have to wait till january for brian.C and garys tourneys to get on there.  They should change INT to 800-922 what do you guys think???

[stpitner]

921 thats no good i kinda wanted to play INT for ever guess ill have to work on that.... It would be nice to have all my tourneys on there... Im missing 6 tourneys still and two of those i got first place.... guess ill have to wait till january for brian.C and garys tourneys to get on there.  They should change INT to 800-922 what do you guys think???

Hehe, well, in a way... for 2008 you WILL be playing INT   But that's just because the new ratings will be 900-934 are INT, 935+ will be advanced.  So you get your wish!

[tacimala]

You get better by playing with better players. Practice with better players, lose money to better players, play up in tourneys when you can. Hands down you will learn more by playing with people better than you and losing than you will be practicing what you think is a good idea.

Take a grain of salt with that, but something to think about on that line of thought.

[Jon Brakel]

You get better by playing with better players. Practice with better players, lose money to better players, play up in tourneys when you can. Hands down you will learn more by playing with people better than you and losing than you will be practicing what you think is a good idea.

Take a grain of salt with that, but something to think about on that line of thought.

I disagree. I got better the year that I won the series in Rec at the IOS by playing in the top Rec group in the second round every month. Before that when I played Int and was in the last group in the second round no one really cared how they played. I got worse when I hurt my back and gained 50 pounds.

[Bruce Brakel]

I disagree too, for scientific reasons.  Any organism will master skills faster when mastering those skills is rewarded than when it is not.  For some players there might be enough reward in shooting two throws better, or getting two birdies they never got before, that the absence of extrinsic rewards will not retard their learning.  Most players will learn faster when the extrinsic rewards are there as well. 

When I was advocating adding Am IV to the IOS format and to the PDGA format, I was curious if making the PDGA extrinsic reward system applicable to the bottom end of the Rec division would cause players mired down there to improve their game. 

Working from the group of players who had a rating in 2006 and played Am IV starting in Kenosha, our average Am IV player improved his or her rating by about 25 points last year from the December 2006 ratings update to the November 2007.  As far as I can tell, every one of our Am 4s improved their rating last year.  If you throw out the masters and grand masters aged players, who you wouldn't expect a lot of improvement from anyway, the average improvement is close to 30 points. 

I think players should play up from time to time, or caddy for the pros, or come out and watch the pros.  Humans learn well by mimicry and modeling.  I learned a lot the year I caddied for Mark Ellis.  So did Kira.  But what you learn by watching does not really click until you use it to win or finish in the prizes. 
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What I find interesting from a behavioral science perspective is the behavior of advocating playing up. 

Here we have a player who has never once played up in a PDGA tournament in his entire PDGA career advocating that you should play up to improve your game.  In fact, four or five times in 2006, Taylor played down, playing intermediate with a 945 or 935 rating, presumably under a series rule.  He had five win-place-or-show finishes playing down.

I have no problem with a player playing where ever the system puts him.  If Larry Labond or whoever has a series rule that lets advanced players play intermediate, so be it.  But what is Taylor saying here, "Don't do what I have done for two years.  It's not working for me.  Do something I don't know anything about.  Play up."  Or is Taylor saying, "Damn, I've gone from being a decent advanced player to the bottom of the pack in 2008 and my rating has not changed.  Hey, all you intermediates, you should play up some to my division!" 

I play up about twice a year*, and have done so every year for the last five years.  Under local bump rules I had to play up a lot for my second through ninth years of playing tournaments.  I know about playing up from playing up.  I also know about caddying from caddying.  You'll learn more by caddying for a pro than you will by playing up.  When you are playing up you are too focussed on your own game to learn much by watching.  When you are caddying you are totally focussed on your player's game. 

This weekend it only costs $10 more to play up and I'm not a threat to win in Advanced.  I'll probably play up.  If I beat Jaybird, that will be reward enough!

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*One could argue that I have played up all season being nearly 50 years old and playing Advanced rather than Advanced Master, but I think playing Advanced Master this year would have been playing down for me.  I only played advanced master when I was hurting more than usual. 

[skipache]

i agree with taylor because:
1. i learn when he  takes my money haha
2. Playing with better players makes you focus, makes one want to improve , learn new shots

i will however admit that i tend to play better when i am leading the card, whichever card i am on
second card sneak attack!

[tacimala]

The reason I was "playing down" with a high rating is because I joined the PDGA in June or July after playing a few tourneys and frankly didn't even know about the rating breakdown until about August. Pointing me out is a good example of that, but just wanted to add some more detail to it.

[Jon Brakel]

i agree with taylor because:
1. i learn when he  takes my money haha
2. Playing with better players makes you focus, makes one want to improve , learn new shots

i will however admit that i tend to play better when i am leading the card, whichever card i am on
second card sneak attack!

The flaw in number 2 of course is that you don't usually play with better players if you play up. The first round at best you get put with a random grouping of players and some might be better. The second round you will be playing in the bottom of the division with players of your own caliber (assuming you were actually entered in a division higher than your abilities).

[jack]

You'll improve faster if play with better players, simply because you can watch what they do, ask questions, and get instant feedback. I'm more inclined to help someone when I'm playing a casual round with him than when I'm in the middle of a tournament. Watching pros during a round and asking for tips at lunch or after the event is a good way to go. Chris Sprague is probably the best example of this in Illinois: He's a good player and he loves to talk about himself after his round!

[Jon Brakel]

You'll improve faster if play with better players, simply because you can watch what they do, ask questions, and get instant feedback. I'm more inclined to help someone when I'm playing a casual round with him than when I'm in the middle of a tournament. Watching pros during a round and asking for tips at lunch or after the event is a good way to go. Chris Sprague is probably the best example of this in Illinois: He's a good player and he loves to talk about himself after his round!

I agree. But that's completely different from playing up to get better.

[jack]

I agree. But that's completely different from playing up to get better.

Of course it is.

[Tom McManus]

I agree. But that's completely different from playing up to get better.

Of course it is.

Jack,

What is the correct font for sarcasm?

[Mukey]

I''ve got to take advantage of playing with better players more often than I currently do, dropped 9 in the latest update, but I was playing horribly towards the end of the year.

[jack]

Jack,

What is the correct font for sarcasm?

And the punch line is?

Seriously though, for once I wasn't being sarcastic. Playing up a division won't necessarily make someone a better player. Paying attention to what better golfers do, asking questions, and practicing will. Playing up a division is one way to accomplish this, but so is following the lead card or playing a casual round with someone who is good. Just because I play Open doesn't mean that I think everyone else should. If this is going to turn into a discussion on the PDGA divisional structure, I'm going to step aside now because that's just too close to talking politics for my tastes. And, as we all know, politics only exist to give boring people something to talk about at boring parties.

[DiscGolfSchodt]

Chris Sprague is probably the best example of this in Illinois: He's a good player and he loves to talk about himself after his round!

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[skipache]

Chris Sprague is probably the best example of this in Illinois: He's a good player and he loves to talk about himself after his round!

After the round,during the round, basically non stop

i would agree with this