IOS 2008 BRASS CASH EXPIRES

[CEValkyrie]

This is just a reminder that all Brass Cash expires at the end of 2008. 

I am not sure what the future will bring for the IOS. Bruce, Jon, & I talked this weekend. There will most likely (99.9%) chance there will NOT be an Illinois Open Series next year. There maybe an IOS event pop up here or there but we really are not sure.

We want to thank our loyal supporters and volunteers. I am going to sit back and enjoy the next 5 events. The weather was fantastic this weekend and what fun it was!

[CEValkyrie]

I did not want to include this in my first post. This post is my rant and reflects my opinions. Don't take anything up with Bruce or Jon about this. Contact me directly. This is not the direct reason the series may be ending but it does play a part.

This is not directed at any one person. I do appreciate a lot of people who've said a lot of nice things over the years and have donated a lot of time to the series. I want you to understand what TD's do to offer events for YOU to play.

I do ask one thing. At the next event you play ask yourself how much you've done to help at any event in the past year. If you have suggestions and constructive criticism i've always been open to constructive criticism. Before you rip that TD for whatever little thing went wrong or what you would have done different think about that answer above. If you have the answers please start running events so I can suggest what you should or should not do.


Courses->

We have brought sanctioned PDGA events to courses that once did not. We still have some locals that don't think we should run events at certain courses. These are not our courses. They are public parks. Most have course use fees for our tournaments. I have a hard time with the mentality that because you play a course or host a league there; does not mean it's yours and no one else can host an event there.

I have headed the course set up over the years. It takes a small army of guys to do so. Over the years i've tried to get as specific as possible. You may agree or disagree with the design of temp holes, out of bounds, and what tees should be played. That information has been posted prior to each event. If you don't like short tees, yellow rope, or out of bounds don't play. Please don't whine to me all day about it.


Divisions and entry fees->

We've tried to be creative and offer all divisions at reasonable prices. Our goal has been to give the most value for your buck.

What does it matter if Pros and Nov play at the same time? We've made the best decisions using data to offer some divisions on Saturday and others on Sunday. Why does Adv/Pro have to play one day and the other divisions the next? Why Sunday? Why Saturday? Yesterday in Iowa there were 103 players in 10 divisions. Do you think Chris Sprague was complaining about having to play on the same course as Recreational players?

Others->

Tournament directors are not getting rich off disc golf and they are not getting rich off your entry fees. If you think they are try to run an event. Front the cash for a course use fee, PDGA sanctioning, and insurance. Oh, don't forget the discs. See how much stress you have hoping there are enough players to cover the expenses. Spend Friday, Saturday and Sunday at the course. See how much an hour that would be. Oh, don't forget the time answering calls, e-mails, and getting other stuff ready.

We've been ripped for running too many events and there are no open weekends for other tournament directors to run events. We started running events because there were no events between Milwaukee and Joliet.

[Fox Metro Discer]

What a bummer! The IOS events are some of the most organized and well run tournaments that I attend. If you do decide to stop running them, I will really miss them!

[Bruce Brakel]

The brass cash does expire at the end of 2008.  The Waterford Junior Girl Club is in its last year.  2009 is too far away for me to comment on.  There will always be disc golf. 

[OvEr HaNd AsSaSiN]

If this is the last year you are running the IOS series i just want to saying thank you for running the series. 

[Jon Brakel]

I can't help but think that Brett's rant is a little bit my fault. Brett and I spent some time yesterday discussing the thankless work that is running disc golf tournaments. It was a carthartic discussion for me...I think it was just a start for Brett!!!

But for people that think we're making money running disc golf tournaments, here's some numbers for you. I had about $300 in expenses for the weekend. I made $0 on the tournament. Discontinuum and the Waterford Jr. Girls clubs split the profit on the tournament. Half of the tournament profit almost paid for Bruce's gas.

Brett and I discussed three or four options for next year. Only one is to not run the IOS...but it is the easiest answer. However, if I were looking for the easiest answer I wouldn't have started the IOS with Brett and Bruce in the first place.

I really enjoy running tournaments but the best part of running tournaments is going to other people's tournaments and enjoying the day off!!!

The brass expires at the end of the year so spend it now. What happens in 2009 will happen in 2009. Let's enjoy 2008 now and have fun playing disc golf.

[Bruce Brakel]

A lot has changed since 2001 when Jon and I ran our first sanctioned tournament, and since whenever it was when we ran the first Illinois Open tournament.  The Waterford Junior Girls Club went from four girls to 30 boys and girls back to four girls.  Brett has gone from being an amateur I could beat half the time to a world class pro.  Jon has gone from being an amateur I could beat most of the time to a chronic DL TD. 

We started this thing so we could run the kinds of tournaments we want to play.  Now none of us want to play the same kinds of tournaments.  We started this thing to support our clubs.  Now one of the clubs is winding down and the other doesn't really need the support of this process but instead puts support into the process to fund the annual B-tier.  When we started this thing gasoline was $1.73 a gallon.  Now it is twice that.  When we started this thing I was still young and always on for a road trip. 

We're going to put on a good show this year, with an A-tier.  We've started strong.  But the brass does expire, and then we'll all have to re-evaluate.  The brass really does expire at the end of the year. 

[Younk]

Thank you all for your hard work, time and money.  I hope you change your minds because I love playing in the IOS tournaments and have made many good friends here.   

[tacimala]

So the one thing I'm not fully getting from all of your posts is about the brass. Is it expiring at the end of 2008? 

I definitely don't envy you guys at the TD's and I am bummed about the notion of not having good tournaments next door. I wasn't able to play as many IOS events last year as I wanted and this year I am scheduling things around them. I hope to see it back next year, but regardless of that thank you for all the work and efforts.

[tree]

So the one thing I'm not fully getting from all of your posts is about the brass. Is it expiring at the end of 2008? 

Yes.

[thedraphter]

OK,  right up front, parts of this belong in another thread somewhere, but I haven't a clue where.  Most of it I think, belongs here.

I really appreciate the way the IOS tournaments that I've been to have been run.  I went to one last year, and all of them so far this year, including both days of #3.  I just started playing disc golf Last August with Last year's IOS #5 being my first tourney.  I was at the Atlanta Open this year.  It is a Big Time A tier event.  Ken Climo won it, and there were some other big names there.  In my humble opinion, it wasn't run half as well as our IOS tourneys.  I went to a tourney in Alabama last December, and it didn't even have players packs.  and the payout was a pre-chosen disc or set of discs bundled together. NO CHOICE.

To play  devil's advocate . . .
Sometimes I hear people grumble about things (which I'm not going to re-hash).  And I can understand the need to grumble, but (Un-Devil's advoacate), when I wait a day, and get out of the moment, sleep on it, and think about it, I see that to run a tournament has a lot more to it than I can even think about.

You can't please everyone.....Next time The playing field grows, and you want to grumble about adding yet another temp hole, you be the one to tell someone they can't play, and explain to them that they will have to drive an hour and a half (or more) back home, because they can't play today.  No one likes for rounds to take 4 hours, especially when I can play a leisurly round at home in an hour and a half.  but use that to your advantage, and get to know someone.  Ask someone where they are from, and what they do, or what they are throwing, and what their favorite disc is...  Until you've walked a mile in a TD's shoes, give em a break.

Or you can do what I did after the Sinnississippi open.  I took what I observed, thought about it for a while, translated it into language and attitude that I would be ok with someone using on my wife..... I found a post that Brett had started himself commenting on that very tournament, and added my comments.  Some of which were exactly what he was already thinking, and some were ideas that he may or may not have mulled over.  Most (I hope) tournament directors do a self evaluation, and also ask those around them how things went.  The people who take care of the IOS tourneys are obviously the same way.  These tourneys are run great, drive to ST. Louis, or Alabama, or Georgia, and play there.  You will see that the IOS tourneys are in my Not too humble opinion run better.

OK, now the stuff that may have a better place to be put, but is semi related.

There is sooooo much that goes into a tourney, I know I can't even think of all of it off the top of my head.
Brett or anyone else who runs tourneys....I ask Brett, because he is our PDGA rep...Where does one go to get information on how to run a tournament.  I would basically like a few nice check-lists.....1 year out do 1,2,3,4...etc.   6 months out do........  3 months out do...... one-and-a-half months out do.......3 weeks before do......1 week before do......2 days before.....1 day before....day of.......day after.......week after.....etc.....

Is there a good set of resources for that. or do I just need to follow around some TDs for a couple of tourneys, and ask lots of questions?


Peace.....Love....and birdy putts.

Dave O
PDGA# 33544

[CEValkyrie]

Dave,

   The IOS team appreciates your support! It takes a small army to pull off some of the minor details. Thanks for taking time to share your post.


     Our philosphy has always been to run tournaments we want to play. Event by event, year by year, we have modified things as we've gone. We could sit back and do the exact same thing year after year. We've taken some chances trying different things. Some have worked & others have not.

 
     I'll try to get a thread started in the TD corner with a check list & time frame.

Thanks again!

[tjdub26936]

There is sooooo much that goes into a tourney, I know I can't even think of all of it off the top of my head.
Brett or anyone else who runs tourneys....I ask Brett, because he is our PDGA rep...Where does one go to get information on how to run a tournament.  I would basically like a few nice check-lists.....1 year out do 1,2,3,4...etc.   6 months out do........  3 months out do...... one-and-a-half months out do.......3 weeks before do......1 week before do......2 days before.....1 day before....day of.......day after.......week after.....etc.....

Is there a good set of resources for that. or do I just need to follow around some TDs for a couple of tourneys, and ask lots of questions?

Planning:  http://www.pdga.com/documents/td/HowToPlanPDGAEvent.pdf

Running:  http://www.pdga.com/documents/td/HowToRunPDGAEvent.pdf

It looks like there are a million details to consider in running tournament, a lot of them covered in these How To's, but Brett/Jon/Bruce probably have a few things to add.  Maybe they could prioritize some of these items for us potential torch-receivers.

[Jon Brakel]

Sorry to bring it up. I thougt I read on "Brass Cash Expires" thread that there is a  99.9% chance there will be no IOS next year. I hope there is!

There's no reason to be sorry. I think that Brett's first post in this thread is fairly accurate for the time. We were in some ways already burned out after the first event. But the season has moved on and other than one butt munch at Crystal Lake, things have gone pretty smoothly. While at that time we were considering ditching the whole IOS concept completely, we continue to talk about what we want to do in 2009.

I'm not talking for Bruce or Brett but from my perspective I would give the 2009 IOS these odds:

25% that the IOS exists pretty much as it does today...maybe with only 4 events.
25% that the IOS exists pretty much as it does today but with more events and more people involved.
50% that something else happens including a one event Illinois Open or no events or something else.

I don't want to mislead anyone. We will continue to discuss our options for 2009. We'll know better what's going to happen in 2009. The brass does expire at the end of this year and that gives us the opportunity to rethink what the IOS can be and what we want to put into it.

[Bruce Brakel]

I think Jon's math accurately reflects my own.  We're running the best series for amateurs anywhere in the country.  I don't want to trash that by walking away.  But its getting so that I cannot afford to drive away!   

[CEValkyrie]

I did not want to include this in my first post. This post is my rant and reflects my opinions. Don't take anything up with Bruce or Jon about this. Contact me directly. This is not the direct reason the series may be ending but it does play a part.

This is not directed at any one person. I do appreciate a lot of people who've said a lot of nice things over the years and have donated a lot of time to the series. I want you to understand what TD's do to offer events for YOU to play.

I do ask one thing. At the next event you play ask yourself how much you've done to help at any event in the past year. If you have suggestions and constructive criticism i've always been open to constructive criticism. Before you rip that TD for whatever little thing went wrong or what you would have done different think about that answer above. If you have the answers please start running events so I can suggest what you should or should not do.


Courses->

We have brought sanctioned PDGA events to courses that once did not. We still have some locals that don't think we should run events at certain courses. These are not our courses. They are public parks. Most have course use fees for our tournaments. I have a hard time with the mentality that because you play a course or host a league there; does not mean it's yours and no one else can host an event there.

I have headed the course set up over the years. It takes a small army of guys to do so. Over the years i've tried to get as specific as possible. You may agree or disagree with the design of temp holes, out of bounds, and what tees should be played. That information has been posted prior to each event. If you don't like short tees, yellow rope, or out of bounds don't play. Please don't whine to me all day about it.


Divisions and entry fees->

We've tried to be creative and offer all divisions at reasonable prices. Our goal has been to give the most value for your buck.

What does it matter if Pros and Nov play at the same time? We've made the best decisions using data to offer some divisions on Saturday and others on Sunday. Why does Adv/Pro have to play one day and the other divisions the next? Why Sunday? Why Saturday? Yesterday in Iowa there were 103 players in 10 divisions. Do you think Chris Sprague was complaining about having to play on the same course as Recreational players?

Others->

Tournament directors are not getting rich off disc golf and they are not getting rich off your entry fees. If you think they are try to run an event. Front the cash for a course use fee, PDGA sanctioning, and insurance. Oh, don't forget the discs. See how much stress you have hoping there are enough players to cover the expenses. Spend Friday, Saturday and Sunday at the course. See how much an hour that would be. Oh, don't forget the time answering calls, e-mails, and getting other stuff ready.

We've been ripped for running too many events and there are no open weekends for other tournament directors to run events. We started running events because there were no events between Milwaukee and Joliet.

Here is a link to Brian Mace's website. I was at the player meeting at the USDGC when he received a golden rake.  I have listened to Brian on the internet the last 2 years covering the USDGC. Take the time to read this.
http://www.maceman.com/

[Bruce Brakel]

He sounds a little bitter.

There really isn't enough money in this game for it to be anything more than a hobby for most TDs, not to mention most pros.  And he's right that any time someone like Maceman or Terry Miller tries to run tournaments like an income paying job, someone else will come along running them like a hobby and undercut what he's trying to do.  Hey, that's not my fault.  We're all slaves to the laws of psychology and economics! 

The one thing I've been thinking more and more is that the only ones getting rich off this are Jim Kenner, Harold Duvall and the other owners of the successful companies.  TDs are basically working for those guys for nothing.  And what do most players get out of that arrangement?  High entry fees and boxes of discs they don't need. 

I think the obvious solution is to stick a stake in the heart of the merchastravaganza system.  The winner in Intermediate at IOS 5 got something like 16 premium discs if he had the good sense to take Discraft.  Did he need 16 new discs?  Why do amateurs play the game for boxes of discs they don't need? 

Lets do the payout as a side game and do it in cash for all players. 

Read this thread...

http://discontinuum.org/index.php?option=com_smf&Itemid=26&topic=4033.0

[Bruce Brakel]

I just wanted to say one other thing after re-reading Brett's rant.  For some reason this year the stress of fronting those costs has really gotten to me.  More than ever before I worry that if no one shows up, I've got $3000 worth of discs I don't need and no way to convert them back to cash.  Or maybe i'll come up with some really stupid art concept, like PT Cruisers for the Cryztal Cruise, and no one will buy those discs.  [One by one I've been turning those Cruisers into Yodas, Vaders, etc, but what about all those rose colored Impacts?] 

It just seems to me that if we all played for small amounts of cash, it would be a lot more fun for everyone. 

[dgnickster9224]

not to threadjack but bruce empty your pm inbox. i would like to work out a way to get the aviar back that you dyed for me awhile ago.

[airspuds]

 bruce  -  are u coming to HOMIE 

i got like  18 brass cash left and i wont be at RLB

i bought 3 crystal cruizer putters at Rockford for practice
but typically i dont buy a ton of plastic as
i dont play often enough that it needs replacing