Brett Favre

[Tom McManus]

Starr, Warner, and Montana are statisically way ahead of the rest of the group.  There are a number of guys who all have similar stats. Football is by far the most difficult game to compare statistics due to the team nature of the sport, but Starr's statistics are pretty amazing when compared to the players then and the players of today. It will be interesting to see how Rodgers and Rivers end up in the long run. Phillip Rivers is putting up some incredible numbers this season. Back to your top 5 Dan, if the draft were today with the players where they are at in their careers, I would go:

1. Rivers
2. Rodgers
3. Brees
4. Manning
5. Brady.

Short term Manning and Brady may be better, but long term I would go with Rivers and Rodgers.

[Dan Michler]

As you stated, its tough to compare the QB's of yesterday to the QB's of today.  Passing has increased each decade.  3000 yds used to be the bench mark, now its 4000 yds.  All you can do is compare each QB to his peers in the era in which he played.  The thing that impresses me about Manning is the consistency and the ability to always give his team a chance.  If there is 1 guy I don't want to be facing with my team ahead 4 and 2 minutes on the clock, its Manning.

That being said, most of us become biased more towards the players of today.  Its hard to remember just how great some players were 10 or 20 years ago.

[Tom McManus]

Attached is a link to a very interesting article that ranks the NFL Franchises. Packers come in at #1. I think the Bears could be a spot higher and I am surprised that the 49ers are as high as they are.  I think the Steelers are in the right position, maybe a spot or two too high but pretty close to wear they should be.

http://coldhardfootballfacts.com/Articles/11_2260_A_CHFF_epic%3A_all-time_franchise_rankings.html

[jasonc]

Dan, Rodgers and Rivers should not be mentioned in the same class with the Super Bowl Champions you mentioned until they have the ring as well.

You don't have to win a championship to be considered one of the great players of all-time.  Teams win championships, not QB's.  This is a really weak argument.  Especially when you consider Favre played on a perennial contender and only managed 1 title in his career.  I don't think you need me to list off some mediocre QB's who won titles, but I'll do it anyways:  Jim McMahon, Trent Dilfer, Eli Manning, Brad Johnson, and we could go on...

Dan Marino is certainly considered among the greats of all-time.  John Elway never won a title in his prime, then won back-to-back at the end of his career.  Is anybody arguing he was a better QB in 1998 than he was in 1987?  Peyton Manning and Steve Young had a hard time finding that first Super Bowl victory.  Had they retired before they got that ring, would they still not be considred among the best ever?

Winning titles is absolutely something you consider when stacking up the best who ever played, but it is not a prerequisite to making the list.


By the way, I did not rank Rodgers and Rivers ahead of Manning/Brady/Brees.  Which other QB in the game today do you have ahead of those 2?  Maybe you could debate putting Rothelisberger in the top 5.  After that?  Are you telling me you'd rather have Eli? Romo? McNabb?  Who? 

I'm sorry, I thought we were discussing whether or not the Packers let Favre go too early and the manner in which they traded him.  You obviously do not want to address the topic any longer and made a nice segway into a debate on the best QB's in today's game. 

In closing the previous debate, I still believe that the Pack royally messed up Favre's departure from the Land of Cheese.  He was still capable--see Favre's 2009 Pro Bowl season and more importantly, the fact that he led his team to the NFC Championship game AFTER he was deemed not worthy of wearing the green and yellow.  Football games are played to determine a winner, not to figure out who puts up the best stats against teams like the Lions and Bills.

The players who make this game great are all too often kicked to the curb as soon as they are deemed to be unfit for the current 5 year plan.  Whenever the NFL owners and other top management want to start acknowledging that it's the players who make this game so popular, there will be no need for the union or any other player's rights advocacy group.  If you think the NFL takes care of the players, just ask Ditka, Butkus, Sayers, or anyone else associated with the Gridiron Greats.  http://www.gridirongreats.org/

I will certainly argue that Elway was a better QB later in his career.  Over time, he learned how to win big games.  He proved it with 2 Super Bowl Championships.  People don't remember how many rushing yards Walter Payton had back in 1979.  But we all remember that he helped the Bears win a Super Bowl in 1985. 

You can focus on all of the fantasy stats for days if that's your bag.  From my point of view, there is only one stat that matters.  In your "I'm an NFL GM fantasy game", I will still take the QB's that win most often.  If possible, the one who has proven it at the NFL level.

So here is my list:
1)  Brady
2)  Manning
3)  Big Ben
4)  Brees
5)  Pick 'em

[jasonc]

Attached is a link to a very interesting article that ranks the NFL Franchises. Packers come in at #1. I think the Bears could be a spot higher and I am surprised that the 49ers are as high as they are.  I think the Steelers are in the right position, maybe a spot or two too high but pretty close to wear they should be.

http://coldhardfootballfacts.com/Articles/11_2260_A_CHFF_epic%3A_all-time_franchise_rankings.html

That's a very comprehensive article.  Unfortunately, it is a little outdated.  The Bears just earned victory #701.

How many other NFL franchises have won 700+ games?

[Steven Jacobs]

Attached is a link to a very interesting article that ranks the NFL Franchises. Packers come in at #1. I think the Bears could be a spot higher and I am surprised that the 49ers are as high as they are.  I think the Steelers are in the right position, maybe a spot or two too high but pretty close to wear they should be.

http://coldhardfootballfacts.com/Articles/11_2260_A_CHFF_epic%3A_all-time_franchise_rankings.html

That's a very comprehensive article.  Unfortunately, it is a little outdated.  The Bears just earned victory #701.

How many other NFL franchises have won 700+ games?

I believe no other teams have won 700.

[CEValkyrie]

I have no problem with the Packers wanting to dump Farve a few years ago. I think it was BS to limit him of where he wanted to go. If they thought he was washed up they should have allowed him to go where he wanted.

It's plain and simple. If you don't have a QB in the NFL you aren't going to win games.

Farve went to a Jets team in 08 that had a record of 4-12 the previous season. He played pretty good the first half of the season and they started out 8-3. They won pne of the last 5 to finish the season at 9-7. He didn't play well and they didn't win down the stretch.

Last year was an unbelievable year in MN and one of Farve's greates seasons. Farve played awesome and damn near went to the super bowl.

It's been pretty ugly this year. Farve has played like crap and the results show on the field. I don't watch or listen to all the bullshit with Farve. The media is all about that. If you didn't watch the week 7 game to the end at Green Bay you have no idea what a true football player is. You will NEVER see a QB play the game like Farve. His career is impressive.

[Tom McManus]

Year	Age	Games	Cmp	Att	Cmp%	Yds	TD	TD%	Int	Int%	Lng	Y/G	Rate
2008	39	16	343	522	65.7	3472	22	4.2	22	4.2	56	217	81
2009	40	16	363	531	68.4	4202	33	6.2	7	1.3	63	262.6	107.2
2010	41	11	212	350	60.6	2446	10	2.9	17	4.9	53	222.4	71
2008	25	16	341	536	63.6	4038	28	5.2	13	2.4	71	252.4	93.8
2009	26	16	350	541	64.7	4434	30	5.5	7	1.3	83	277.1	103.2
2010	27	11	240	369	65	2945	20	5.4	9	2.4	86	267.7	97.4

The key stat above is the age. Favre did have a great year last year, and he still can show flashes of brilliance. But age has caught up with him.  I think the Packers offered him a million a year for 30 years to continue to represent the Packers. I don't think that is exactly disrespecting him.  OJ ended up with the 49ers, Johnny Unitas with the San Diego Chargers, Joe Namath with the Rams, and Franco Harris with the Seattle Seahawks.  That is just to name a few Hall of Famers.  It doesn't diminish their legacy or their contributions to their original teams.  At a certain point everyone has to move on, allowing Favre to go to Minnesota right off the bat just so he could stick it to the Packers would not have been the right thing to do as an organization. Rodgers hasn't won a playoff game yet, but a 51-45 shootout certainly wasn't his fault.                                  
Favre ended up number 20 on the top 100 NFL players. I personally would have him in the top 10 due to his longevity, what he brings to the game, and his energy. There won't be another like him.                                                               

[Dan Michler]

So here is my list:
1)  Brady
2)  Manning
3)  Big Ben
4)  Brees
5)  Pick 'em

Why is Manning ahead of Big Ben on your list?  Ben has 2 championships to Manning's 1.  Just curious...

[jasonc]

 [/quote]
Why is Manning ahead of Big Ben on your list?  Ben has 2 championships to Manning's 1.  Just curious...
[/quote]

I put him there because when the Colts won the Super Bowl, he was the MVP.  He was also the league MVP in '08 and '09.  The Colts have more total wins with Manning than the Steelers do with Roethlisberger since his rookie year back in '05.   

[pdga#7648]

Ben should NOT be considered in the yop 5 at all. Yes, he has 2 rings, but he did not win them himself. Parker and the refs helped vs Seattle. Maybe he won the game vs Arizona, but still not worthy, and this comes from the biggest Steeler fan anyone here will ever know.

Watch a Steeler game, and just watch how many times he starts to throw, only to pull it down and try to run, but either  fumbles or gets sacked. I bet I have yelled at him to throw the damn ball at least 70 times this year. he is so uncertain back there, that he may have a tough time breaking the top 10.

1. Brady (helps having a cheater as a coach)
2. Manning (is the best many of us will ever see play this position)
3. Brees ( talent around him is unreal)
4. Rodgers (one of the best mentors in Favre)
5. Rivers or Schaub ( neither have a ring, but both have potential to throw for over 5,000 yds in a season)

[Chainmeister]

I have been enjoying the QB rating derby from the sidelines.  

I see two types of great quarterbacks. There are the gritty winners. These are guys like Montana, Rothlisberger, Staubach, Aikman, Stabler,.Theisman, Bart Starr  Some are good and some are great. Some are lucky to be on great teams. They just know how to  win.. Sometimes lesser talents prove to be winners.  McMahon was one of these guys.  

The second group are the QB savants. These guys have tremendous talent and some simply put up gaudy stats but never won the big game.  This was not always their fault.  Marino and Tarkington come to mind. At times Flutie, Fouts and Testaverde were in this catagory.

The rare air group did both- Unitis, Elway, Brady, Manning, Brees, Favre. (I edited this in and did not mean to exclude him!)

I know I am overlooking a few.  I think Brady tends towards the first group.  He is a tough SOB.  Rtholisberger is not a great QB but is a great winner.  Manning is more of a savant who got one win and may never get another. Elway would have been in that group if he did not win two at the end of his career.   I think Brees and Brady truely have both qualities in spades.  I think Manning is the most talented.  Of the current players, Rivers may be more of a savant.  Its still early for him.  I think Rogers is awesome and may one day be in that elite group.  Kurt Warner was a savant who was also a winner and tough SOB but not quite in the rare air group.

Jay Cutler is better when he tries to emulate the first group and gets in trouble when he pretends to be in the second group.

[Dan Michler]

Relying on Super Bowl victories to determine who is the best player at any position is simply flawed.  Had Montana suffered an injury allowing Marino and the Dolphins to win the Super Bowl in 1984, would that make Dan Marino a better player? 

There are 22 positions on the field, and every one of them actually does matter.  QB's are more important than any other individual position, but they can NOT win by themselves.  Not even close.    It is simply impossible to objectively evaluate any player by a single statistic, as these statistics are dependent on the performances of other players on the field (e.g. linebackers racking up easy tackles because their defensive linemen occupy multiple blockers).

All we can do is use all of the data (team victories, statistics, the eye test) in front of us to form a logical opinion.  We can all have different opinions about players and its certainly fun to debate.  I would just argue that you should think twice before completely throwing out "fantasy GM statistics" when assessing players.

[Dan Michler]

I will certainly argue that Elway was a better QB later in his career.  Over time, he learned how to win big games.  He proved it with 2 Super Bowl Championships.  People don't remember how many rushing yards Walter Payton had back in 1979.  But we all remember that he helped the Bears win a Super Bowl in 1985. 

I strongly disagree with these statements about Elway and Payton.  People actually do remember Payton's seasons from 1977-1984.  They made him a hall-of-famer, one of the greatest RB's of all-time, and the career leader in rushing yards at the time of his retirement.  He would be in the HOF regardless of whether the Bears won in 1985.  My most impressive memories of Elway are from the late 80's and early 90's.  Not the guy who moved around the field gingerly behind one of the most dominate offensive lines and running games in NFL history on the way to 2 Super Bowls in his late 30's.

[Chainmeister]

I will certainly argue that Elway was a better QB later in his career.  Over time, he learned how to win big games.  He proved it with 2 Super Bowl Championships.  People don't remember how many rushing yards Walter Payton had back in 1979.  But we all remember that he helped the Bears win a Super Bowl in 1985. 

I strongly disagree with these statements about Elway and Payton.  People actually do remember Payton's seasons from 1977-1984.  They made him a hall-of-famer, one of the greatest RB's of all-time, and the career leader in rushing yards at the time of his retirement.  He would be in the HOF regardless of whether the Bears won in 1985.  My most impressive memories of Elway are from the late 80's and early 90's.  Not the guy who moved around the field gingerly behind one of the most dominate offensive lines and running games in NFL history on the way to 2 Super Bowls in his late 30's.

I 100% aree with Dan.  Elway will be remembered as the guy who could throw a ball through a wall and hit the head of a pin at the same time.  I think your age shows withthe  Payton comment.  He is remembered much more for being a complete football player who trained by running up hills and who ran for 275 yards against the Vikings.  The Super Bowl Payton was merely great and was nothing compared with the Football Imortal who played in the late 70's and early 80's. That Payton was the best player at just about every postion on his team including kicker, quarterback and lineman.

[Jon Brakel]

I remember Payton for playing with a broken collar bone, catching a pass one armed and then lowering his shoulders to hit a LB instead of running out of bounds.

[Tom McManus]

I will certainly argue that Elway was a better QB later in his career.  Over time, he learned how to win big games.  He proved it with 2 Super Bowl Championships.  People don't remember how many rushing yards Walter Payton had back in 1979.  But we all remember that he helped the Bears win a Super Bowl in 1985. 

I strongly disagree with these statements about Elway and Payton.  People actually do remember Payton's seasons from 1977-1984.  They made him a hall-of-famer, one of the greatest RB's of all-time, and the career leader in rushing yards at the time of his retirement.  He would be in the HOF regardless of whether the Bears won in 1985.  My most impressive memories of Elway are from the late 80's and early 90's.  Not the guy who moved around the field gingerly behind one of the most dominate offensive lines and running games in NFL history on the way to 2 Super Bowls in his late 30's.

I 100% aree with Dan.  Elway will be remembered as the guy who could throw a ball through a wall and hit the head of a pin at the same time.  I think your age shows withthe  Payton comment.  He is remembered much more for being a complete football player who trained by running up hills and who ran for 275 yards against the Vikings.  The Super Bowl Payton was merely great and was nothing compared with the Football Imortal who played in the late 70's and early 80's. That Payton was the best player at just about every postion on his team including kicker, quarterback and lineman.

The thing that I remember about Payton in the Super Bowl is that he was basically used as a decoy and the fact that he didn't score a touchdown and the Fridge did score a touchdown. Not that I watched the game. Stinking Bears.

[Sr.]

I remember Payton for playing with a broken collar bone, catching a pass one armed and then lowering his shoulders to hit a LB instead of running out of bounds.

Sorry for the thread drift Brett but Payton was more known for running 100 yards or more a game with the worst offenses in the league. He got most of those rushing yards on his own most of the time. The lines in front of him were awful. Payton would hold the rushing record today if he had lines like other great backs did! Blocked, passed, kicked, received, and played Quarterback. The best all around football player in my opinion.

[Dan Michler]

I remember Payton for playing with a broken collar bone, catching a pass one armed and then lowering his shoulders to hit a LB instead of running out of bounds.

Sorry for the thread drift Brett but Payton was more known for running 100 yards or more a game with the worst offenses in the league. He got most of those rushing yards on his own most of the time. The lines in front of him were awful. Payton would hold the rushing record today if he had lines like other great backs did! Blocked, passed, kicked, received, and played Quarterback. The best all around football player in my opinion.

Agreed, if Barry Sanders or Walter Payton had the offensive line that Emmitt Smith enjoyed throughout the 90's with the Cowboys, they would have racked up a ton more yards.  Emmitt was a tough RB and there is something to be said for his longevity at a brutal position, but he did not play at nearly the level of those other two.  My top 5 RB's:
Jim Brown      5.2 ypc
Barry Sanders  5.0 ypc
Walter Payton  4.4 ypc
OJ Simpson    4.7 ypc
Emmitt Smith  4.2 ypc

[Tom McManus]

I remember Payton for playing with a broken collar bone, catching a pass one armed and then lowering his shoulders to hit a LB instead of running out of bounds.

Sorry for the thread drift Brett but Payton was more known for running 100 yards or more a game with the worst offenses in the league. He got most of those rushing yards on his own most of the time. The lines in front of him were awful. Payton would hold the rushing record today if he had lines like other great backs did! Blocked, passed, kicked, received, and played Quarterback. The best all around football player in my opinion.

Agreed, if Barry Sanders or Walter Payton had the offensive line that Emmitt Smith enjoyed throughout the 90's with the Cowboys, they would have racked up a ton more yards.  Emmitt was a tough RB and there is something to be said for his longevity at a brutal position, but he did not play at nearly the level of those other two.  My top 5 RB's:
Jim Brown      5.2 ypc
Barry Sanders  5.0 ypc
Walter Payton  4.4 ypc
OJ Simpson    4.7 ypc
Emmitt Smith  4.2 ypc

Interesting list, I will have to spend some time on this one.  Jim Brown is #1. I think that there has to be room for Earl Campbell some place on this list. I also think that Eric Dickerson was a very under appreciated runner.