Disc Golf is big business now.

[Mike Clark]

I never would have thought that I would see Disc Golf mentioned in the Wall Street Journal. Check it out.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123369271403544637.html

Make sure to check out what Austin, Texas wants for a 36 hole disc golf course. Wish I had 1/8th of that cash. Looks like Disc Golf has made it big time. It is now part of government corruption and over spending. This is the publicity we need.

[Sr.]

On Fox News, Sean Hannity was bashing the Democrats for that $886,000 being put in the stimulus package. It turns out that that not a Penney was added for that Disc Golf Course. I guess that's why they call it Fixed News. There seems to be a lot of Republicans upset over the stimulus package, but it wouldn't have passed without them.. They have a lot of complaints but no answers. They seem to forget the surplus that they turned into the worst deficit ever. Sorry for the thread drift.

[Dan Michler]

Sweet!  I'm just pumped disc golf made it into that article.  They even called it "disc golf" once instead of frisbee golf.  And they are ripping Austin, TX, not the game of disc golf.

[Mike Clark]

No worries about the thread drift.

I just do not like the negative publicity and making Disc golf sound like you need $$$$$ money to have a course installed. The people I talk about courses do their own research. They do not know me, they do not take me at my word without do their homework. I go to some saying you can need to $10,000 to 50,000 to install a course depending on what type of course they want to install. This article makes me look like an idiot. I do that enough on my own. I do not need the help of a poorly written article. This article is not hard to find.

From a political side. It does not really matter if it made it into the stimulus package or not. The really stupid part is, especially during these hard times, that it is just plain ignorant to ask for that kind of money for this type of project. It was part of the request that Austin, Texas submitted. It doesn't matter that it was cut later. Just to suggest such a project is irresponsible. And that is how this mess got started in the first place. Irresponsible people who put their personal agendas above the good of the people. There is more than enough blame for both parties. The blame game will not fix anything. The simple fix is god back to the basics. I do not want to turn this into a political debate. We can start another thread for that if you wish.

[Jon Brakel]

Based on that information it is hard to draw a conclusion on if it is a waste of money. Here are factors that I thought of that you might not be considering:

1) They may need to purchase the land rather than using existing park land.
2) If it is "financially sustainable" then it must be pay to play. To get the most out of pay to play they will want to provide a club house/snack shop with rest rooms.
3) It this is "new" land they might not have a road, parking lot, or water and waste infrastructure nearby. It can cost a lot of money to pave and put in sewers and water mains.
4) There are a lot of good free disc golf courses in Austin. They will have to turn up the notch a little bit and include multiple tee pads, landscaping, benches and other amenities in order to compete with the free courses.

I think that investing in a really good pay to play course on an exclusive park would be a good investment for any city. Hopefully they have similar plans if they get the money.

[tacimala]

Down in Austin right now oddly enough, just got done playing Pease Park which someone tells me is the oldest disc golf course, but I'm not sure the source was very good. Sure is a lot different playing in this area than up Chicago way!

[Tom McManus]

Down in Austin right now oddly enough, just got done playing Pease Park which someone tells me is the oldest disc golf course, but I'm not sure the source was very good. Sure is a lot different playing in this area than up Chicago way!

Different how?

[patti9103]

Any info on how it's different would be greatly appreciated.  I'll be there in April house hunting. 

[jack]

Based on that information it is hard to draw a conclusion on if it is a waste of money. Here are factors that I thought of that you might not be considering:

1) They may need to purchase the land rather than using existing park land.
2) If it is "financially sustainable" then it must be pay to play. To get the most out of pay to play they will want to provide a club house/snack shop with rest rooms.
3) It this is "new" land they might not have a road, parking lot, or water and waste infrastructure nearby. It can cost a lot of money to pave and put in sewers and water mains.
4) There are a lot of good free disc golf courses in Austin. They will have to turn up the notch a little bit and include multiple tee pads, landscaping, benches and other amenities in order to compete with the free courses.

I think that investing in a really good pay to play course on an exclusive park would be a good investment for any city. Hopefully they have similar plans if they get the money.

Chuck Kennedy posted on another site that this was the case. Another thing to consider is that this project would have created jobs, not only for the staff managing the course (assuming it would be pay to play) but also for the people doing the infrastructure work (cutting trees, installing the road, etc). It's not like you ask for that kind of money and then tell the local club to do the work. I think the message to take away from this is that Republicans hate disc golfers; therefore, we should not vote for them. Oh, and that Sean Hannity is an idiot who should be beaten severly about the head and shoulders. 

[tacimala]

Well the biggest difference is the lack of grass. It's probably pretty easy to beat discs in down here. Lots of rock and dirt. There's also some solid elevation differences than what we play in, which was pretty cool. I mean I have only played one course though, so I can't really comment on everything. I liked it though and it's big down here, that's for sure.

[Mike Clark]

I am not trying to insult anyone personally. I have learned over the years that politics is usually a difference on philosophy and opinion. Anyone thinks that spending $886,000 to buy some land to put a park, disc golf course, or any other sort of non-revenue generating project that creates 4 jobs is part of the problem. How would a Disc Golf course ever be able to pay back the $886,000 much less even be financially sustainable? Are they going to charge $50 a round? If it can not do these 2 things then it is not stimulating the economy. It is another economic sink hole. This type project in no way shape or form belongs in the stimulis package. Just cause it is something you want or believe in doesn't make it the right thing to do. I love Disc Golf and as I have said before I do not think that taxpayers should have to pay for something I want to do. It just isn't right. A Disc Golf course doesn't benifit anyone other than the people who play Disc Golf. I feel that if the land is avalable we have a right to use it just like anyone else. But if it is going to be a Disc Golf only facility Disc Golfers should have to pay for the equipment and maintenance for the course. If the park wants to front the money so be it. At least we can pay them back and pay for maintenance.

[can't putt]

Wait a minute.  The Austin disc golf course is just a wish list item included with a long list of so called "shovel ready" projects put together by the U.S. Conference of Mayors.  In the Act itself, as signed by Obama you will not find any $886,000 disc golf course.  What you WILL find in Section 1604 is the following:

"None of the funds appropriated or otherwise made available in this Act may be used by any State or local government, or any private entity, for any casino or other gambling establishment, aquarium, zoo, golf course, or swimming pool."

[jack]

I hate to do the quote-by-quote breakdown, but I disagree with nearly everything in your post, Mike. Sorry. For what it's worth, I like you and I usually agree with your posts. Please don't think I'm a d!ck! I'm just argumentative today.

Anyone thinks that spending $886,000 to buy some land to put a park, disc golf course, or any other sort of non-revenue generating project that creates 4 jobs is part of the problem.

The number of jobs created initially would be dependent on the amount of work required. It sounded like a substantial amount of work would be required in the form of building roads and installing utilities at a minimum. Then you still need to work the land by cutting fairways, etc. Once the course is installed, someone has to maintain it and staff the on-site pro shop. Maybe there would be a concession stand. If you consider what all this project entails, you'll realize more than four jobs would be created.

How would a Disc Golf course ever be able to pay back the $886,000 much less even be financially sustainable? Are they going to charge $50 a round? If it can not do these 2 things then it is not stimulating the economy. It is another economic sink hole.

I think you're underestimating how big disc golf is in Texas. I could see money being generated through greens fees and a pro shop and concession stand. Perhaps down the road this facility could be used to host Worlds and generate more money for the local economy. I'm curious what the economic impact of 2009 Worlds in KC will be.

This type project in no way shape or form belongs in the stimulis package. Just cause it is something you want or believe in doesn't make it the right thing to do.

How would you prefer the money be spent? How did the initial Wall St bailout go? It's really easy to look at the package and say "This doesn't belong!" It's harder to come up with a plan of your own. It's fine if you don't agree with me that this project would stimulate the economy. However, I think you can see how this project would fit the bill (so to speak, haha!) of improving Austin's infrastructure and providing the public with a recreational outlet. I don't think that just because I like something the government should spend money on it. It would be nice, however, if they would stop spending money on things I don't agree with, such as war and wiretapping. Sorry, I got sidetracked. Where was I?

I love Disc Golf and as I have said before I do not think that taxpayers should have to pay for something I want to do. It just isn't right. A Disc Golf course doesn't benifit anyone other than the people who play Disc Golf. I feel that if the land is avalable we have a right to use it just like anyone else. But if it is going to be a Disc Golf only facility Disc Golfers should have to pay for the equipment and maintenance for the course.

I think a softball field doesn't benefit anyone other than the people who play softball. I don't think it's common practice for park districts to make softball players pay for the instillation of softball fields. How the park district makes their money is through charging for the use of the fields through softball leagues. I think there would be an opportunity to do something similar with disc golf.

If the park wants to front the money so be it.

And here's the part of your argument that I really don't understand. Where the F is the park district going to get the funds to front the money, if not from taxes?!? Sorry, I'm ruling out the possibility of a wealthy benefactor lying on his deathbed and appropriating money for a disc golf course. If you're against disc golf being included in the stimulus package because you see it as a misuse of federal funds, shouldn't you also be against any use of local, state, or federal taxes for a disc golf course?

[Jon Brakel]

"Financially sustainable" does not mean that it would pay back the money that it took to build. It means that it would not draw on tax dollars for day to day operation.

Park districts, villages and cities create public areas all the time that cost hundreds of thousands to millions of dollars. Some of them are for specific recreational activities like softball and others are just for multi-use/general purpose like Millenium Park. I'm not saying that this should be in a stimulus package or that it should not. I'm just saying that I think park space projects are good no matter where the money comes from.

Patti you might want to start another thread for Austin courses. I played Pease Park and two others when I was in Austin several years ago. They all kind of have a similar feel. They all have a lot of dirt with just tufts of scrub grass here and there. One course had a lot of low cactus that you had to be careful from stepping on. Lots of rocks in the ground. Rocks as big as a car but low to the surface so it was just part of the ground. One course had a stream wash out before I got there so we couldn't play 4 of the holes. Some people were wading across the water to play but we opted to skip them. All of the courses had elevation changes. One course had a crossing fairway in the sky. The tee was about 50 feet above the previous hole playing perpendicular across it. There was no conflict since you were throwing so high above the previous hole. One course has a really cool view of the capitol building while walking down the fairway. They were all fun. Only one of the three that I played had decent tees on all holes. Course maintenance was not the best that I've seen but it was the beginning of winter. I would imagine that you'd do most of your big maintenance project in Austin during the winter to avoid the heat of the summer.

[Mike Clark]

Patti you will not have a problem finding great places to play Disc Golf in Austin, Texas. I have not made it doen that far to play yet but from what I know it is a great city for disc golf as well and many other really cool things. Like music, food, colleges, ball golf, and many more. I have been to Austin many time unfortunatly it was before I played Disc Golf.

I understand park districts buy land and things like that. That is something you approve at a local level with your local voters. Just like LCFPD does when they want money. I voted yes to their referendumm this year in hopes that some of that money will be used for Disc Golf in the future. Not in a economic stimulis package. There is nothing about a new park and disc golf course that is going to stimulate the economy I do not care how anyone spins it.

I do not have the skills to break this down quote by quote but I will do my best to answer Jack. I do not take any of this personally.

So to build a park or disc golf course that employs a construction company for 1 year that in the long run will be a financial drain on local taxes is a good idea? I do not think so.

Any course that took $886,000 to purchase the land and build would not even pay back the original money used for 9 years. Not to mention the ongoing expenses for those years. And that is from the best numbers I have heard of a course doing. Not a good investment. Standard business practice is a 5 year return on investment. Go try to get a business loan from a bank and tell them your ROI is 9-10 years just to break even. The Small Business Administraion won't even back you. You can say that this is not a business it is a government project. But that is just part of the problem. If the government would runs its finances like a responsible business does we would not be nearly as far in debt as we are.

Edited cause I did not want anyone to think I am picking on Obama. Bush's "Bailout" is just as bad if not worse. I just lump them together because they are all crap.
"This Economic Stimulus Package/Bailout is a joke. Its most immediate impact will be doubling the inflation rate. God help us if China decides to throw their financial weight around. The Feds had no business doing any of this. It is not the governments job to bailout bad businesses. Does anyone really believe that any of these major companies are going to learn to better manage themselves because someone just handed them millions of dollars? Oh wait the Fed is going to tell how to run a better business? Not sure which is the bigger joke. This is nothing more than trying to put a band aid on a bleeding artery. Try it see how well it works. Now the Fed is actually stock holders in our banking system. Yeah that will work out great too. Who started this recent fiasco to begin with. Oh that's right the Fed."

Again this is not about asking for money for Disc Golf. This is about the amount, when, and from where they were asking for the money. If I cared about softball and baseball I would feel the same way. This is not the time to be asking for money for this type of project. We have many more important things to worry about right now. As I stated above this is a local issue not a federal issue. Plus there are plenty of grant programs available for these types of projects. For example Land and Water Conservation Fund, which Obama did not want to put any money into this year. Congress did it anyway. This money comes from royalties from offshore drilling and some other stuff. In Illinois any Park or Forest Preserve can apply for a grant that will provide 1/2 the funds for any recreational projects including the purchasing of land. It has been used by many local parks that include disc golf.

Yes I am against anything that the government decides to spend tax money on that it has no way of paying for maintaining  without increasing my taxes unless it is necessary. Where does it end? Do you really want a 60% income tax. Just look to our neighbors to the North. Sorry I really do not want to work my tail off for 7 months out of the year for the government. Its bad enough that it is 4 months right now. If I wanted to work for the government for low pay I would have stayed in the Army. If you want something special you ask for a bond referendum locally like the LCFPD or you raise the money yourself and do it privately. That way when the money runs out you ask again or you do not get the money. Not the Fed. Again stop expecting the Fed to solve your local problems. This just leads to them permanently increasing our taxes.

[tacimala]

Wow, I found Twin Parks on Friday down here near Austin. If that stimulus thing ever did pass down in the Austin area, that course would be the second course that costs that much money. That place is just flat out unreal and a full decade ahead of disc golf. www.twinparkscountryclub.com is the website for the place, but the site does not do justice. There might be pictures up elsewhere as well, so search around.