Skill vs. luck - Highland Park

[macnagle]

Last Friday a friend and I played Highland Park. My friend had played Highland several times before. It was my first time. I got to see the layout with one round from the white tees and then we played two rounds from the blues (blue tee scores: 61, 63). My friend is a 970+ rated player (blue tee scores: 64, 60). I have not played tourneys since the rating system began but I would probably be a 950 player. Par from the Highland blues is 60 and I was quite happy to shoot what I did. Many tee areas were soggy, muddy, and slick and there was a steady strong wind with gusts to 30 mph.

*Highland offers a unique disc golf experience. Collectively we had seven "twos", thirty-four "threes", twenty-four "fours", and seven "fives" over seventy-two holes played. At most courses there would have been a bunch of deuces and "threes" with maybe a couple "fours" and probably no "fives". Neither of us scored a "six", which is very possible on a few of the holes at Highland. A 960+ player joined us for our 2nd round from the blue tees and he scored three "sixes" (score: 69).

*Tight and wooded holes where skill, not luck, is required to get to the basket for a putt (white and blue tees) - #s 1, 4, 12 (white only), 15. All of these are excellent holes.

*Mostly open holes where skill, not luck, is required to get to the basket for a putt – (white and blue tees) #s 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 16, 17. All of these are excellent holes.

*Holes where a skilled drive is required to hit fairway openings but luck determines if a throw gets to the basket for a putt (white and blues tee) - #s 2, 3, 5, 6, 12 (blue only), 13, 18.

*Hole that is all luck, no skill - hole #14 (The total luck is getting through a six-foot opening that comes up one hundred feet down the fairway. Then, the same throw must travel another 100+ feet through an area of small trees to the basket. (Example: In three rounds, two good players made it through once. Another good player who joined us did not get through on his one try.)

*This is a course where no one should ever give up. You could be eight strokes behind with six holes to go and still catch someone.

*Highland shows an extreme amount of hard work- cleared paths in the woods, great tee signs, the various stairways, and the refurbished baskets (better ones are still needed but a great job on the old West Park(?) cages).

*Illogical OB - It makes sense for active roads and parking lots to be OB but why make an abandoned road that weaves through Highland OB? I have seen that in other parks too. At Highland there is OB only a few feet from #12's basket. Hole #14's blue tee could actually have made use of the abandoned road as a tee pad but instead the tee area is off the road a few feet in the grass. If the OB on the abandoned road makes the course more "fun" it also makes it less fair because although a bad shot can kick you towards the road, luck determines if you are on the road.

[Dan Michler]

Somebody give macnagle our award for Longest First Post Ever.

[macnagle]

Okay. I reduced my post to a novelette but it still might qualify for the LFPE award.

[pickax]

Dan, you should have ignored Dan. Your first post was good.

[Bruce Brakel]

I used to think some holes were all about luck.  The year I had my back injury and could not play, I spent a lot of time watching the 1000+ rated pros play.  Man those guys get lucky over and over on those all luck and no skill holes!  I could be 1000 rated if I could have a run of luck like that.   

[Dan Michler]

I disagree with Krupicka, I was able to read this post in its entirety.

I also disagree with Bruce, there are definitely holes where luck plays a very large role.  However, there obviously no such thing as an 'all luck, no skill' hole.  For example, I guarantee that Barry Schultz makes it through that 6 foot gap that is 100 feet down the fairway ALOT more times than me.  And I might get through that gap ALOT more times than my mom (not to knock on my mother, she gives it 110% effort!).

I think we call it a 'luck' hole because no matter how good you are, you will miss the gap a certain percentage of the time.  However, I'm still alot more screwed on holes like this than I am on a wide open 250 foot hyzer hole where I can deuce it almost as often as a 1000 rated player.  I think the 'luck' holes actually create more of a scoring spread between the good players and the bad players.  That being said, I agree with macnagle that a fair hole should have a defined fairway.

I hate the 'path OB' rule as well.  It should be if you cross the path or road, its OB whether you stay on it or not.

[OvEr HaNd AsSaSiN]

agree with dan for the first time in discontinuum forum history

[CEValkyrie]

I really like this course. I would like it much more with upgraded tee pads and baskets. We played a mix of white and blue tees at the JPC last October. The course was dry but it was windy both days. Here is a link.
http://www.pdga.com/tournament-results?TournID=8199#Open
Highland Park Pro/Am mixed R3 (2008 Joliet Pro Championships) 18 SSA--54.66
Highland Park Pro/Am mixed R2 (2008 Joliet Pro Championships) 18 SSA--53.21

The Chicagoland Area was in dire need of a course like this. It has a great variety of holes and offers many challenges competitive players will need if they decide to travel. You have to have a wide variety of shot skills to score well on this course.

As for the luck factor. There are definitely some tight holes out there. I did not feel like there was one hole that was ridiculously tight and was a crap shoot. All of them have a line, although a few tough, to get to the basket.

If I were running a tournament out there I would make on and over any roads OB. It makes several holes go from average to great holes.

[jack]

I would have posted earlier, but I wanted to put some thought into my response since the original poster obviously put a lot of thought into his post. I'll be brief since I want to get out of the office and throw this afternoon. 

First, thanks for all the nice things you said about the course. It's always nice to hear both complementary feedback and constructive criticism. You are right that a lot of time, planning, and work went into the course, and I'm glad that it shows.

Second, I'm guessing from your user name and a few things in your post that you are Dan Nagle. If so, please tell Ryen that John Knudson says "hi." Umm, if you're not Dan, well, he's a pretty cool guy from Bloomington and you should get to know him if he still plays. 

HOLES 2, 3, 5, and 6

Ok, getting down to business: I think holes 3, 5, and 6 are fair and that the basket is reachable from the tee. Even if you hit a tree, you will most likely still be within putting distance, albeit perhaps with an obstructed putt. I also think hole 2 is fair, I've just never gotten within 70 feet of the basket on my drive from the white tee. I chalk this up more to my own inability to decide which route to take. I've gotten closer from the blue tee, for whatever reason. 

HOLE 12

Hole 12 from the blue tee is intended to be a 2-shot hole. It is possible to reach the green from the tee. To do so, one must take a fairly large risk (ie, the OB road and culvert/stream). The risk on this hole would be severely diminished if one or both were considered IB.

HOLES 13 and 18

These holes are tight, but I think they are fair. I actually wish 18 was longer so that it could be a par 4, but I think it's a good tough finishing hole.

HOLE 15 (BLUE TEE)

I like the road being OB here. I think it penalizes throws that hyzer out early. I like that you can't just dump a hyzer onto the road, throw an upshot onto the hill, and take a 3. I'm not sure what the scores indicate as to whether this is a par 3 or 4, but I think it plays as a good hard hole regardless of par. I know that when I get a three or even a long putt at a 2, I feel like I accomplished something. At any rate, that's a long explanation for why the long tee is on the grass and not the asphalt.

HOLE 14

Again, I agree that this hole is tight. It's been awhile since I played here, but I'm pretty sure that the gap you are talking about is bigger than 6 feet. At any rate, I've always had success threading the gap with a putter. Granted, I've never played this course in 30 mph winds, so that may have something to do with it. I don't mind holes this tight as long as they are short. I think that if you don't hit the gap to get a putt, you should be able to scramble and save your 3.

I hope that provides you and others with some insight into what was considered during the design process. I'll check back, so please feel free to respond. Thanks again for sharing your thoughts! I hope you can get back to play on a nicer day. The park really is beautiful in any season.   

[macnagle]

I used to think some holes were all about luck.  The year I had my back injury and could not play, I spent a lot of time watching the 1000+ rated pros play.  Man those guys get lucky over and over on those all luck and no skill holes!  I could be 1000 rated if I could have a run of luck like that.   

No playing for a year? Ouch! BTW I only referred to hole #14 as "all luck" and certainly the 1000-rated guys would score better than others on "all luck" holes but even their success rate on some of the worst designed holes in disc golf would statistically be referred to as "luck".  However, based on J. Knudson's post I guess I am wrong about Highland #14. He said he always has success there with a putter and I believe him. Maybe we just sucked last Friday. Maybe we just suck.

[macnagle]

CEValkyrie said in an earlier post: The Chicagoland Area was in dire need of a course like this. It has a great variety of holes and offers many challenges competitive players will need if they decide to travel. You have to have a wide variety of shot skills to score well on this course.

As for the luck factor. There are definitely some tight holes out there. I did not feel like there was one hole that was ridiculously tight and was a crap shoot. All of them have a line, although a few tough, to get to the basket.

If I were running a tournament out there I would make on and over any roads OB. It makes several holes go from average to great holes.


You are right Brett. The metro area needs a course like Highland and there is no doubt it provides a challenge in itself and a prep for others who will take shots they throw at Highland to other courses. Not sure on your OB preference though. I think the OB belongs in a few spots but not all over - J. Knudson explained #15's OB (blue tee) well.

[macnagle]

I also disagree with Bruce, there are definitely holes where luck plays a very large role.  However, there obviously no such thing as an 'all luck, no skill' hole.  For example, I guarantee that Barry Schultz makes it through that 6 foot gap that is 100 feet down the fairway ALOT more times than me.  And I might get through that gap ALOT more times than my mom (not to knock on my mother, she gives it 110% effort!).

I think we call it a 'luck' hole because no matter how good you are, you will miss the gap a certain percentage of the time.  However, I'm still alot more screwed on holes like this than I am on a wide open 250 foot hyzer hole where I can deuce it almost as often as a 1000 rated player.  I think the 'luck' holes actually create more of a scoring spread between the good players and the bad players.  That being said, I agree with macnagle that a fair hole should have a defined fairway.

I hate the 'path OB' rule as well.  It should be if you cross the path or road, its OB whether you stay on it or not.

Points well made in your first two paragraphs - and well taken. My only disagreement is kind of weird though because it's just the opposite of what you believe. I think a tighter course requiring "luck" (maybe I should have said "good fortune") makes lesser players more competitive with the better ones. That's within reason, though. An 850 player would not get closer to a 1000 guy on a tighter course but I think a 950 guy would.

[macnagle]

I would have posted earlier, but I wanted to put some thought into my response since the original poster obviously put a lot of thought into his post. I'll be brief since I want to get out of the office and throw this afternoon. 

First, thanks for all the nice things you said about the course. It's always nice to hear both complementary feedback and constructive criticism. You are right that a lot of time, planning, and work went into the course, and I'm glad that it shows.

Second, I'm guessing from your user name and a few things in your post that you are Dan Nagle. If so, please tell Ryen that John Knudson says "hi." Umm, if you're not Dan, well, he's a pretty cool guy from Bloomington and you should get to know him if he still plays. 

HOLES 2, 3, 5, and 6

Ok, getting down to business: I think holes 3, 5, and 6 are fair and that the basket is reachable from the tee. Even if you hit a tree, you will most likely still be within putting distance, albeit perhaps with an obstructed putt. I also think hole 2 is fair, I've just never gotten within 70 feet of the basket on my drive from the white tee. I chalk this up more to my own inability to decide which route to take. I've gotten closer from the blue tee, for whatever reason. 

HOLE 12

Hole 12 from the blue tee is intended to be a 2-shot hole. It is possible to reach the green from the tee. To do so, one must take a fairly large risk (ie, the OB road and culvert/stream). The risk on this hole would be severely diminished if one or both were considered IB.

HOLES 13 and 18

These holes are tight, but I think they are fair. I actually wish 18 was longer so that it could be a par 4, but I think it's a good tough finishing hole.

HOLE 15 (BLUE TEE)

I like the road being OB here. I think it penalizes throws that hyzer out early. I like that you can't just dump a hyzer onto the road, throw an upshot onto the hill, and take a 3. I'm not sure what the scores indicate as to whether this is a par 3 or 4, but I think it plays as a good hard hole regardless of par. I know that when I get a three or even a long putt at a 2, I feel like I accomplished something. At any rate, that's a long explanation for why the long tee is on the grass and not the asphalt.

HOLE 14

Again, I agree that this hole is tight. It's been awhile since I played here, but I'm pretty sure that the gap you are talking about is bigger than 6 feet. At any rate, I've always had success threading the gap with a putter. Granted, I've never played this course in 30 mph winds, so that may have something to do with it. I don't mind holes this tight as long as they are short. I think that if you don't hit the gap to get a putt, you should be able to scramble and save your 3.

I hope that provides you and others with some insight into what was considered during the design process. I'll check back, so please feel free to respond. Thanks again for sharing your thoughts! I hope you can get back to play on a nicer day. The park really is beautiful in any season.   

Hey John, you guessed right. I am Dan and Ryen is my son. Ryen says hello and I remember you, so hello, also. It's been awhile since back in your Junior days. Ryen is a husband and a Dad now and tries to play when he can. I was glad you thought my first post was balanced. I certainly did not want to tick folks off, but I did want to stir up some thought and reactions. Looks like I did.

Down here in Bloomington/Normal we have two 18-hole courses that are pretty straightforward so they do not generate a lot of debate on our Forum. I think it's great to have a course like Highland, which has all sorts of character. And, I would like to be clear that Highland is unique and I mostly like it.

The only hole I said was all luck was #14. The 6 ft. gap was what my partner called it. He sounded pretty sure of himself so I used that figure. The wind had nothing to do with our shots on #14. In fact, most of the wooded shots were not wind affected. As my first post said, we played hole #14 seven times and just one throw got through. My friends even tried some failed thumbers after their tee shots. All of us are pretty good and only 10% of our throws got through. We took 3's every time. If you always got through that gap then kudos. Good point in that a hole like #14 should be short.

John, you made another good point, the road being OB on #15's blue tee is good for the reason you stated.

On blue holes like 2, 3, 5, 6, 12, 13, and 18, where I said they required skill and luck, I did not mean a 50/50 ratio. I think more skill is required than luck but I saw and threw several shots on Friday that were really good, meaning they went through the intended fairway openings, only to be redirected or knocked by trees afterwards. I recall specifically looking for clear routes on some of these holes (after the intended fair openings) but saw only pathways that I believe even the best players could not reproduce. And sure, the best throwers will get through more often then others but a statistician, in my opinion, would still define their success rate as luck. To me such scenarios are akin to a field goal kicker drilling the football through the intended opening (the goal posts) only to hit one of the dozen randomly placed return nets designed to catapult the ball back through the uprights. Field goal no good.

Just curious, if #12's blue tee is designed to be a two-shot hole, where would the first shot be best placed, by #12's white tee? If so, then that design and the OB use makes sense. Still, I see every good player trying to get down to that basket area in one shot. Do you play it as a two shot hole? Does any good player?

Stay in touch here and maybe someday I'll drag Ryen to Joliet and we can all play.

[jack]

Dan, I understand what you're saying about the luck factor on the holes in question. I'm of the opinion that it takes skill to hit the big gaps on these holes to get down for a putt or even a 50 footer, but you're right in that there probably is some luck factor in whether a shot is parked or not. My pet peeve has always been lucky holes and trees left randomly in the middle of the fairway, so I tried to give input wherever I thought that could be an issue. Sorry, I'm drawing a blank right now on a hole to use as an example. Maybe the woods holes at Haines Park back in the old days? Also, I've never played the course in conditions as windy as you described. I'm sure that would change my opinion a bit, as I've always thought that big winds increased the luck factor.

Also, I should have been clearer in that I don't ALWAYS get through the gap on 14. What I should have said is that I've been able (or lucky enough) to get through when in counted (league, doubles, etc). And now I'm probably forever jinxed...

I'd have to check with Steve Matul, Roy Carey, or Gary Lewis about where the "intended" landing zone on hole 12 is off the blue tee. I've always just thrown a sidearm in an effort to get near the road at the bottom of the hill. From there I try to lob a putter close to the basket. I know that's a fairly conservative game plan, but it usually works for me. I just think there is too much risk involved with going for the basket from the tee, even though, theoretically, it is quite reachable.

It's been nice chatting with you on here, Dan. It would be awesome to meet up and play sometime. I last saw Ryen in '05 before the GPO. Congrats to him on his marriage and fatherhood. I haven't ventured down that path yet. Stay in touch, and let me know if/when you want to play. I'll even drag Justin along. Ryen might remember him. We all played Juniors together, and I think they even went to school together at U of I. Take care!

[macnagle]

John - Ryen and I both remember Justin. In fact he mentioned Justin yesterday when I spoke to him about you. Justin did go to the U of I when Ryen did. As for Highland, the wind was hurting on a few holes. Sometimes it helped though. By the end of our 3rd round the wind had dropped, too. Footing was the biggest factor last Friday with many tee areas wet/slick/muddy. Even a few fairway shots like on 7, 9, 11, and 17 were slick. I need very secure footing when I drive. If my plant foot slides more than a few inches my power and accuracy suffer greatly. Being 54 doesn't help with that. My "twenty something" partners just stood and ripped. The slickness did not bother them as much. Let's definitely set something up. I will be in touch.