Some PDGA info for 2004

[shawn]

This is info about the 2004 tour agreements and the standards to how they need to be ran.  I like a few of the changes such as a Pro 2 division 960<and the Advanced guys 915>, not 925>..  Got a better chance of staying in this divison and not getting knocked out .  My favorite is Advanced guys over 960 have to play in Pro2 in a B-teir.   Payouts are stricter now too, if the turnout is lower then the standards, they event losses a teir the next year.  I cannot wait to see how this changes some events in the long run.  

[airspuds]

im not sure what i think yet    

[Jon Brakel]

I like most of the changes. We'll see on some others.

[airspuds]

initial impression

(NOW REMEMBER IM NOT ALL THAT KNOWLEGDEABLE ON THIS TOPIC)

is that td's who dont bust their asses getting sponsorship
dont get a tier/ b tier  classifiaction


seems to me the pdga is making the td
go through more hoops

[Jon Brakel]

initial impression

(NOW REMEMBER IM NOT ALL THAT KNOWLEGDEABLE ON THIS TOPIC)

is that td's who dont bust their asses getting sponsorship
dont get a tier/ b tier  classifiaction


seems to me the pdga is making the td
go through more hoops

I think its really just making the B tier mean something. Had we run the IO as a split day we would have met all B tier standards. However, I, and apparently the PDGA BOD, think that a B tier should mean more than just good attendance. This means that I won't be running the IO in 2004 as a B tier, but that's ok. I'd rather have a standard that actually separates a B and a C by something other than attendance.

[shawn]

Basically it is means if you have a b-teir you will have attendance.  I went to a b-teir lst year that had no players package and 500 added to Pros.  Ams paid out 80%.  I'm glad that it now is a C-teir.  No need to go until they can make the standards.    

[damonshort]

Bruce, or anybody, how does the 'trophy only option' fit into any of this? I'm getting a little tired of paying pretty steep entry fees that really amount to a wager that if you play well enough you might get your entry fee back in plastic that you don't really need.  

At least this year I realized that 'am days' in most IL and WI tournaments mean 'non-sanctioned' ==> no rating or 'tour' points and so I was willing to take a beating (usually) in adv Master on principle (IO, Parkside and the Blast were 3 of the few exceptions to this; they were sanctioned for everyone). In 2004 I'll get to move up to Adv GM and get kicked around by guys even older than I...

Going back to the competitive chess model, which I used to take part in... prizes are awarded by rating classification, and every division in a tournament pays cash based on # of participants. Of course, the higher rated players complain when a lower-rated might make more prize money in this setup, and this would certainly be echoed in the DG community...

As the PDGA rating system approaches more of a science, I wonder if there's any thought about going in this direction. The concept that 'accepting cash makes you a professional player' is a little goofy, imo.

[Bruce Brakel]

Anyone who wants to see the trophy-only option be adopted as part of the PDGA format needs to send an e-mail to Dave Nesbitt, competition@pdga.com and the pdga office, office@pdga.com.  You could also cc Terry Calhoun at splendid@umich.edu.

It won't happen in 2004 but there is growing support on the Board for developing an amateur system that looks like amateur sports.  A trophy-only option is a baby step.  This Board believes in incrementalism.

This is how the trophy-only option works:  you play in your chosen amateur bracket for which your are eligible.  You pay a reduced entry fee.  You only play for the trophies, points, ratings and side games.  If you win you don't get any prizes.  It's your choice.

At the Sturgeon Full Moon 25 of the 30 amateurs played trophy-only and were happy.  

From the TD's perspective, I don't have the opportunity to force my amateurs to buy plastic they don't want.  I don't have the opportunity to shift profits from those plastic sales to pros.  Unless I get real sponsorship, I have no added cash for the pros.  I have to charge a fee that will cover trophies, pdga fees and tournament costs or I lose money.  At the Sturgeon I planned on losing some money and ran the event within my projected budget.  If Jon and Brett do this at the IO they will have to charge about $12 for trophy-only.

[Bruce Brakel]

Just to clarify regarding the 2004 PDGA format, advanced players over 960 have to play Pro 2 if it is offered.  TDs do not have to offer it.  Pro 2 is not a popular concept with the top pros since it is the under 960 pros who fund the pro payout!  Michigan experimented with Pro 2 three or four years ago.  It was not quite a disaster but it certainly is a stillborn concept coming from the PDGA.  It could work at a big event but at small events it splits the pro purse in half and pisses off the top pros.

Dave Nesbitt, CompetitionDirector, is telling people in private e-mail that Advanced players can take prizes in lieu of cash and retain their am status in Pro 2.  This opinion runs squarely contrary to PDGA rule 804.08(F).  For some reason Nesbitt refuses to explain the contradiction.  I assume they are about to announce the rule change but they have done dumber things.

Finally, also bear in mind that this Pro 2 / Advanced over 960 rule affects one player in Wisconsin, one player in Illinois, two in Michigan and none in Indiana.  It is almost a rule without application since almost all of these guy have gone pro and are looking for their first sanctioned cash.

[Bruce Brakel]

On the topic of tier levels, it is not as cut and dried as  "I don't have $500 to add so I can't run a B-tier."  The PDGA will let you split sanction so you can B the ams and C the pros.  Similarly you could run an Am-only B and unsanction the pros.  

In 2003 running a tournament partly unsanctioned was officially discouraged.  But they let a bunch of other TDs openly do this.  I saked Nesbitt about this for 2004.  His position is that it is not encouraged or favored but there is no rule against it.  I asked another BoD member about this and some other sanctioning issues and he said, "Well, it really just comes down to money."  

For those of you who did not see my post, this is what I'm thinking I'll do with the Flip City MDGO:  Saturday Am-only B tier.  Sunday for rated PDGA member-only unsanctioned R-tier.  All divisions, Open through Pro 6, will be paid cash.  One-day memberships purchased on Saturday will be honored on Sunday and those players will be placed based on a provisional rating earned on Saturday.  

[Bruce Brakel]

On the topic of trophy-only, it might not "work" at B-tiers in 2004.  At a B-tier you have to have minimum $10 value player packs.  

[Curiously, this is another concept that was tried and failed in Michigan two or three years ago.  When we did this the advanced players pooled their $10 player packs and redistributed it as part of the Amateur Side Bet.  By the end of the year an MDGO volunteer was collecting the sidebet, taking names, and calculating the payouts! ]

A trophy only fee would have to include

$3 for the B-tier per player PDGA fee
$4 for trophy expenses
$5 for the $10 player pack
$2 for the pro rata sanctioning fee
$1 for PDGA insurance
$2 for miscellaneous expenses
__

$17

Damon:  for $33 you can play Adv Master or Intermediate, and $20 of that is going to prizes.  For $17 [half that] you can play trophy only.  What will it be?

I will still offer it at tournaments where I own the merch.  At C-tiers it will be $11 and at B's I guess it will be $17.

[damonshort]

Damon:  for $33 you can play Adv Master or Intermediate, and $20 of that is going to prizes.  For $17 [half that] you can play trophy only.  What will it be?

Bruce, thanks for the information. Some of it I might even call a clarification.  

$17 or thereabouts is 'reasonable' for a couple rounds of a 'tournament atmosphere', points, etc. In my situation paying full fare or taking trophy-only would probably depend on the competition and my mental/physical state that weekend  

I'll voice my opinion supporting 'trophy only' w/ Pdga. Not the first time I've tilted at windmills...