Baseball Hall of Fame

[Sr.]

didn't Armstrong get stripped of his titles??
  Dave said the HOF isn't just for good guys, it's for great players?? how do we know when they were great and when they started being enhanced?  we don't therefore, no HOF vote for those guys.

museums are for art. the art of baseball is not with PED's. huge difference!!
the corked bat proved Sosa was a cheater. so how many of those HR's were with a corked bat. BS if you actually believe that was a batting practice bat. he knew it was in his hands during that AB!  don't believe he didn't because you admire him.

Many writers today still agree that Hank Aaron is still the HR King.  Isn't Bonds on probation or something for lying to the jury?? enough reason to keep him out.   you can't take your kids to the HOF and say yes look son, Barry Bonds cheated the game and all of it's fans, but look he is in the HOF! he was a great player!  If you honestly think that he never enhanced himself, you are crazy. but if you believe he used, and you still think he deserves to be in the HOF, you are still crazy!  if you say he should be in then you are saying cheat all you can, get the best stats possible, and who cares about the game or the other (clean) players.  wrong any way you look at it!
just my 2 cents. I'll leave it at that.

MUSEUM:A museum is an institution that cares for (conserves) a collection of artifacts and other objects of scientific, artistic, cultural, or historical importance and makes them available for public viewing through exhibits that may be permanent or temporary.
If shattering records in MLB isn't historical importance for some, I must be crazy. It's a joke to MLB for not recognizing these circus side shows they made a killing off of. Nail files, spitballs, cork, thumbnails, and yes the juice. They let it happen, these players belong in the HOF and the baggage comes with them. Why hide the facts?

[Dan Michler]

Are you guys interpretting my posts to mean I'm a Sammy Sosa supporter and don't think he did anything wrong?  I'm not sure how I could be more clear.  He's an asshole.  He cheated.  I'm not drinking any Sosa kool-aid.  I do not admire him.

I just want to know how he is more guilty than Barry Bonds and Roger Clemens.  Dave's suggestion that he knows Sosa wasn't a great player without steroids, but Bonds and Clemens were...I just don't get it.  How do you know?

As far as your guess that Sosa started using in 1993.  He was 24 years old.  For you to assume you had his career pegged before he was 24 is ridiculous.  A player's prime in baseball is typically late 20's early 30's.

Also, Sammy was still quite skinny in 1993.  So, if he was using in 1993, why do you think Barry Bonds was not using in 1993?  His power numbers shot up that year as well after signing a huge free agent deal.  How you can put Sosa into a different bucket than these other guys is beyond me.  

I can tell you for 100%  that he made a significant change in his swing and approach at the plate in 1998.  He opened his stance slightly, dropped his hands (previously he held the bat very high in his stance), and started using the toe-tap timing mechanism.  This resulted in him driving balls to the opposite field, where previously he was a pure pull hitter.  It was a major change that obviously made him a better hitter.  I have no clue how many HR you can associate to his natural ability and how many you can chalk up to steroids.  Nobody does, and nobody should pretend to.  But, somehow you know that steroids alone took him from marginal big leaguer to 8th on the all-time HR list.  Barry Bonds was an incredible talent.  Sosa was not.  I guess the baseball writers association has passed you their kool-aid and it must be delicious!

[pdga#7648]

I don't know if that last part was directed at me, but let me clarify.   Sosa falls under the category of linked to, or did use, just like Clemens, McGwire, Palmeiro, and Bonds.  were they great, or above average before ever being accused? sure they were.  that does not mean we draw a line at where we think they started using and draw up HOF credentials from that year. the fact that they became SOOOO much better after being accused is the last straw of sorts. they knew what they had as stats, and knew they could better them by a wide margin, and they did it. they decided to cheat, so pay the consequences! it's that simple. they didn't care about breaking records that have stood for alot of years, so why should we, or the voters care about what they did before PED's?? sure it's history, but it's tainted history. 762 HR's never happens without PED's and Bonds knew that!! he didn't care!  why should I? or why lie to the future generation about him being great?? if he was great, he didn't need to cheat.

[pdga#7648]

and one is not more guilty than any other, but they all are guilty, and they know it, just as we know it.

[Dan Michler]

I don't know if that last part was directed at me, but let me clarify.

None of my comments are directed toward you, only Dave.  I understand you POV.  If we know beyond a reasonable doubt that they used PED's, leave them out.  I may not agree with it, but I at least understand your logic. 

My debate is with Dave, who seems to be taking the side of the picking and choosing among the guilty, which also seems to be how the baseball writers association as a whole is basing their vote.  I don't care about Sammy Sosa.  I care about the baseball hall of fame, and about the accurate portrayal of the history of baseball.  When we pretend to know things we can't possibly know based on personal opinions, we aren't providing an accurate portrayal of history.

[Chainmeister]

Perhaps my Sosa comments were misleading. I do think he is different from at least to players who I suspect were users- Clemens and Bonds. Those guys were always good. Unless they were using during their entire careers they were great before they used.  I am not so sure about Sosa. I think he went from  (perhaps I was a bit harsh. Lets say....) good to great. I think Clemens and Bonds were already there.  Bonds went from Great to cartoon character great. Clemens went from great to it makes no rational sense that he can still do it at this level great. 

I think Palmiero was similar to Sosa. He was a good player when he was a Cub. I think he was a better player than Sosa was when he was with the White Sox. I don't think either guy was using at that stage.  Palmiero later put up numbers that simply made no sense. That's when he was using. Did anybody ever think Palmiero was going to be a 500 hr guy?

One huge problem with the steroid era, and why it bothers me, is that its very hard to figure out who was and who was not using.  Its possible that clean players are being falsly implicated and its also possible dirty ones are getting a pass.  Dan is accusing me of making choices that don't have hard evidence. He is right.  My suspicions may be nothing  more  than the suspicions that led to witch burning frenzies.  Dan can correctly argue that saying Sosa was cut like a greek God is like a New England  knucklehead saying that a woman had a haunting aura or an evil eye.  The Hall of Fame  is going to be like  Salem until as Randy feels, they all go in, or more facts come to light.  For now,  I am ok with the writers denying those they think were users.  I know that its inconsistent.  We are  not telling these accused that they cannot play baseball.  You can still play unless you fail a test. Bonds and Sosa were never given suspensions.  The HOF is a  different matter.  Suspicion may be enough for  now.

[Dan Michler]

One huge problem with the steroid era, and why it bothers me, is that its very hard to figure out who was and who was not using.  Its possible that clean players are being falsly implicated and its also possible dirty ones are getting a pass.  Dan is accusing me of making choices that don't have hard evidence. He is right.

Thank you.  That is all I would like people to agree on.  Lets talk about something less depressing now 

[Clonan]

Didn't Sosa test positive for PED's in 2003? 

[Jon Brakel]

When it comes to Armstrong it seems like the biking world is just as guilty as Armstrong. Its like they were keeping his illegal activities just below the surface until he was no longer of any use to them then they pursued their case against him. He put the sport in a spotlight that its never seen before. They were never going to turn that off until Armstrong was off the stage.

[pdga#7648]

The HOF lost a great man yesterday! St. Louis on Opening Day just will not be the same not seeing Stan The Man being driven around the stadium in the convertble! All of baseball just lost a great individual, Cardinals fan or not! 1,815 hits at home, and 1,815 hits on the road!?? WOW  un heard of!

[Tom McManus]

The HOF lost a great man yesterday! St. Louis on Opening Day just will not be the same not seeing Stan The Man being driven around the stadium in the convertible! All of baseball just lost a great individual, Cardinals fan or not! 1,815 hits at home, and 1,815 hits on the road!?? WOW  un heard of!

I think this is what I miss about sports more than any other thing is guys staying with one team their entire career. It just doesn't seem like it is part of the equation anymore.   Especially in baseball.

Besides the St. Louis fans, I think Stan Musial was under appreciated.  He was one of the greatest players of all time.

[Dan Michler]

Fun fact on Musial:  He, Ken Griffey Sr. and Jr. are all from the same tiny town of Donora, PA.  Thats 1257 HR and a combined 63 big league seasons from a town of about 10,000 people.  Wierd.