STAR Plastic

[Dan Michler]

I can already tell that this new Star plastic is going to be huge this year. 

http://www.marshallstreetdiscgolf.com/disc_golf_hot2.asp

I threw a Star Wraith and liked the feel.  Not sure I'll be throwing any star though as it seems not that much different from champion, but less durable.  I do want to try the new Star Aviar though.

Just wondering what people who have thrown the star plastic think of it??  Star Wraiths more or less stable than CFR?  How durable is the plastic?

[damonshort]

Just wondering what people who have thrown the star plastic think of it?? Star Wraiths more or less stable than CFR? How durable is the plastic?

I've been trying out a Star Teebird. I bought a few 'Pro Line' Teebirds when they came out a couple years ago and thought they were awful even before they started beating up from hitting the ground.

The Star, so far, doesn't seem too bad as far as durability, but I really haven't hit anything with it yet.

[drdye]

I only have one star disc right now, and I have not thrown it, but.....Doesnt it bother anybody else that the star plastic is a 50/50 mix of pro/champ plastic and they MSRP for $1 more than champ???  If the discs cost 1/2 the price to make, shouldnt that reflect in the MSRP???  I dont know, maybe its not common knowledge that the star is the mix of pro and champ plastics?  I understand Innova has one hell of a stronghold on the DG market currently, but come on are they trying to rape us just to make more $$???  I have always been a person who will throw discs from any disc maker, but I have always leaned towards Innova because there discs are made to fly more with hyzer type throw, generally speaking, and that suits my personal throwing style best most of the time.  Discraft discs are made to fly straighter for most of there flight then fade. 

I also noticed that Discrafts discs just went down in price!!!  Maybe its time to take a closer look at Discrafts products   Well, I will always have a few Rocs in the bag anyway. 

What does anybody else think of the price of the star plastic??

[Bruce Brakel]

Maybe you are falling for a gimmick.  A lot of players snapped up $50 Rocs and $30 Champ Starfires.  There were no added production costs there other than a $ of Inncolor.  Innova has absolutely no qualms about letting you determine the price by whether you buy it or not.  The $30 Champ Starfire ran out of gas and now it is normal priced.  If you bought high and are stuck selling low, that's your problem.

One of the reasons I throw a lot of Discraft is because I don't like to get jerked around like that.  But I hear they are coming out with their own special blend and pricing it up.  I hope they don't come out with $50 MRVs.       

[Dan Michler]

I totally agree Joe.  Performs like Champion, but LESS durable, yet MORE expensive??   its only cuz its the current hot item i believe.  we'll see if it stays that popular or maybe they overpriced it.  for me, they definitely overpriced it and i'll stick with champion plastic.  alhtough i'd like to try a Star Aviar still cuz i hate champion aviars, and am wondering if the Star Aviar might be around the same stability as the DX, but more durable.

i'm still wondering what people think about the comparison in stability/speed/glide between star/champion.  which can u get to fly farther?

[whofarted]

i throw my star viper about 500'

[CEValkyrie]

I bought 2 Star Wraiths for $15.00 each. I threw it on Sunday but the 20+ MPH wind & injured shoulder really didn't give me any clue what it can do. I thought the price was worth it to give it a try. The plastic felt good. Duribility might be an issue but possibly they will break in slowly. I dislike throwing DX drivers. Maybe I can find a replacement for my CE Valks that are beat up. Possibly a Star Sidewinder.

I have no problem with what Innova does. They are running a business like a business should be run. They are setting prices and people are buying them. Over time the  price will start to come down with supply and demand. They have quality products. They have cool looking shirts and hats. They have a huge selection. Around here it is very easy to pick up Innova in many molds and weights. Unitil the last 2 years there was no other option around. Besides the IOS there are very few TD"s that even carry a decent selection of any ohter manufacturer. Neither do the stores. Go on message boards or look on the course, Innova is #1 in disc golf. Whatever they are doing they are doing it right as a business. It also helps they sponosr pretty much every top disc golfer.

[pat]

I have a Star Sidewinder I got at the Random Beaver Roundup with the $4 upgrade from the Pro plastic player package disc. It doesn't feel any different then the Pro plastic discs I have. I do like the feel of the Star/Pro grippy plasctic better than Champion though. Any way, it seems to fly pretty much like my Champion Sidewinder. As far as the durability goes how would I know? I don't throw hard enough to damage any disc should hit something.

[Bruce Brakel]

The new Innova shipment is in the house!

I was throwing the Star plastic today, the Wraith, Sidewinder and Starfire-L, as well as some 150 Champion T-Birds, from my backyard into the yard we don't have permission to use for our course.  There is room to throw there about 350 feet slightly uphill, which is all the room I need, and there are a few obstacles so it has the feel of a disc golf hole rather than just chucking in a wide open field.

The Star plastic does have the slightly grippier texture of Pro Line.  It reminds me of the opaque Z that Discraft tried three or four years ago.  I had a white Z Storm then that was dyed in colors I could not see.  Very similar in feel.  That plastic was very durable, but not quite as durable as Z.

Across the line, the Star plastic seemed to be more overstable than the Pro Line and about the same as the Champion.  I thought the Pro Line Wraith was too flippy but the Star Wraith was sweet.  I liked the way the SL flew, but I've never thrown a CFR Starfire, nor do I know if they have L bottoms. 

Diana threw a Star Sidewinder right into the elm tree that *does not really come into play* and I could not find a scuff or cut after careful inspection.   On Pro Line that was going to leave a mark.  I was glad she hit the elm tree.  Right behind it in the other back neighbor's back yard is a stack of paving stones.  Watching it go straight for the paving stones I was thinking, "Star Sidewinder.  Slightly Used.  $10." 

You have decide whether the grip is worth a dollar or two more.  I would say, if a Champion disc is worth $16 at retail, these are worth $18.  I don't buy many discs for retail, so its hard for me to say. 

[Cannon Boy]

   All of my main drivers are star plastic now.  Like the grip and flight path of every star disc I have thrown so far.  I hope they make a really overstable star disc, a firebird or moster in star would be sweet.

[drdye]

I dont really blame them for making the $$ when the market is in their favor to do so.

I do have to say that my information on that it being 50/50 may be incorrect...I asked Dave D on the PDGA page and he said that it was champ plastic with an additive, what that additive is I am unsure.  I have a star wrath that I got last weekend that I plan on doing some test dyeing on....I will probably throw it in the bag and give it a try.  I didnt really care for the pro plastic in any model, but we shall see with the star wrath. 

[Bruce Brakel]

Normally I'm a Laissez-Faire Free Marketeer.  But when you've used the patent laws to dominate the market, which they have, then you have an obligation not to use your market power to jerk people around in certain ways specified by law.  If Innova were big enough to be noticed, like Microsoft or Martha Stewart, they would be answering to the Justice Department in federal court for some of the things they've done and are doing.  Eventually they'd settle it and have to send us all a coupon for a free disc!   

Last year I was pretty happy with them because they have a lot of popular products that our players want that are easy enough to get at prices that make our whole tournament concept work for almost everbody.  But then this past fall they decided to jerk around their vendors in a way that avid readers of disc golf message boards may have gotten the gist of here or there, and now I feel about them the same way I feel about Microsoft or Exxon-Mobil.   

Except they are much smaller and they do play a lot of frisbee golf and Harold is a nice guy in person.  He will be the first to admit he's made some mistakes and this is just one he hasn't seen yet. 

[discmonkey]

Like Microsoft?  Really?    I would say that having patents on their merch and attempting to dominate the marketplace makes them more like, well....every other company in existence.  The day that I show up at Fairfield and my Discraft doesn't work anymore without upgrading to Innova, then I'll buy that they're like Microsoft.  The day my disc freezes in midflight and I have to go buy another, then maybe.   Right now, though, you are basically seeing this sport grow closer to ball golf.  Ball golfers are known for buying every gimmicky piece of crap that gets shown on late night TV.  As long as people buy it, it will be made.  Personally, I like the Star plastic and have ordered some.  Don't really care if it's a blend of Champ and Pro, I can't get my current discs to mate and have kids anyway.   Even if the difference is all in my head, if it gives me a little extra confidence, then so be it.

It's only a matter of time until you see all kinds of money wasting items....The medicus golf disc, the laser sited golf disc, the perfect form wrist support, the interchangeable shoe spikes for different tees, the Scott Stokely instructional video series (sorry, Scott, the vids are pretty bad), the driving tip that is guaranteed to add 50 feet to your drive or your money back, etc, etc, etc.

It's great to hear everyone's feedback on new products and I'm not sure why I'm sticking up for Innova when I throw more Discraft anyway, but can't we just throw the discs that work best for us and call it a day???  In the end, who cares who made the Disc and what their intentions were when it was made.  As long as I have shiny new discs to try every now and again, I'm happy.   

[Jon Brakel]

It's not that your Innova bag won't work if you install a Discraft driver in it, it is in the way that Innova strong arms their distributor's that has some of us a little bit ruffled. But like Bruce said we all like Harold Duvall and they are just a bunch of disc golfers when it comes down to it, so it is difficult to really get peeved at them for a long time. At least Innova isn't as confused as the PDGA BOD is! 

[Bruce Brakel]

What jon said, and those BoD guys also play a lot of disc golf, and are likeable in person, especially if some of them are down wind!     That was bad.  I'm sorry.  Now I'll be banned from PDGA.com and will be cellmates with underparmikey. 

After spending some time in the way back machine, I seem to recall that when Discraft experimented with that blend of plastic in 2002 or 2003, Pad or Erich mentioned to me that it actually costs a little more so they weren't sure whether they were going to produce more of it or what.  Now that innova is producing it for a higher price, that makes it easier for the smaller manufacturers to produce it too. 

Why it costs a little more, or whether it costs a little more, i don't know.  Maybe there is an expense in getting the two plastic types to blend properly.  I'll get over being mad at Innova as soon as i'm selling some again.  Right now I just look at all the discs in the basement sitting around watching TV and playing video games and yell, "Go out and get a job!  Sell yourself to some frisbee golfer and give me the cash!  What's a matter with you?!" 

[Tom McManus]

Right now I just look at all the discs in the basement sitting around watching TV and playing video games and yell, "Go out and get a job!  Sell yourself to some frisbee golfer and give me the cash!  What's a matter with you?!" 

I usually tell mine to get in the basket, but the damn things are pretty headstrong and do what they want.  I didn't know they were lazy too.

[Bruce Brakel]

I did some research today and have to amend my legal opinion.  If I implied or stated that Innova's pricing policy violates the Sherman Antitrust Act or the Clayton Act, I retract that.  Their policy seems to be written so as to take them right up to the line without crossing it, kind of like putting your cruise control right on the number in a zero tolerance speed zone, or maybe kind of like pointing a plastic toy gun at an armed lunatic and hoping he appreciates that it is not a real gun!  I would be the lunatic in that analogy. 

Where the law draws the line on price fixing is at conspiracy or collusion.  There has to be an agreement or there is no violation.  If the manufacturer merely coerces the distributor into going along with a unilaterally imposed price fixing sceme, that's just peachy.  If Discraft and Gateway look at those prices and decide on their own not to compete, they are allowed to do that too. 

[Chainmeister]

I have no problem with what Innova does. They are running a business like a business should be run. They are setting prices and people are buying them. Over time the  price will start to come down with supply and demand. They have quality products. They have cool looking shirts and hats. They have a huge selection. Around here it is very easy to pick up Innova in many molds and weights. Unitil the last 2 years there was no other option around. Besides the IOS there are very few TD"s that even carry a decent selection of any ohter manufacturer. Neither do the stores. Go on message boards or look on the course, Innova is #1 in disc golf. Whatever they are doing they are doing it right as a business. It also helps they sponosr pretty much every top disc golfer.

Looking for sponsorship on the pro tour?

I have not thrown Star plastic yet.  I have no problem with the feel of Z and Champion discs and will not likely buy any unless they have something I want that does not come in those types of plastic.  Dan's idea of a Star Aviar is interesting but I like my putters beat up a little. I have one of those Storms that Bruce was mentioning.  I bought it from him.  Its one of my favorite discs.  Its hit MANY tress and is still in pretty good condition.

As long as Innova does not start discontinuing things to force people to buy Star plastic, I have zero problem with them. Want it, buy it.  Think its a ripoff, don't buy it. There is a disc for all fetishes.  If they start to manipulate their product line to jack up prices or make us buy new things we didn't need, then I would think of the evil empire(I guess I would have to play with Linix plastic ).  The only example of that that I can think of is the Roc.  There is no reason other than $$$ to make a champion Roc a rare disc so it can be priced higher.  Its one of the most used discs iin my bag, so I have one.  Thank goodness its a durable disc.  I do not plan on buying another for a long time.

[Mike S]

So far the SB Orc I have has been just as durable as the Champion ones I've thrown.  Its a little grippier, and about the same stability as one of the gummier Champion Orcs.  Definitely looking for the STAR Aviar.  By the end of the fall I was throwing a KC Aviar for pretty much everything under 270 or so, and it was getting beat enough that I was flipping it a lot more often.  Never liked the Champ ones because they were too slick, but the SB should be perfect.

[Cambodia]

i finally threw a Star disc and it was a star wraith and it felt awesome. im definetly going to put a few star discs in my bag.  Champion discs for me right now just dont seem grippy enough.  the old champion plastic though i love (If anyone has any older champion orcs ill buy it off you). Star disc kinda reminded me of that feel. they are pretty durable. Buddy of mine threw his and dive bombed it into the rode.  Didnt have to try and bend it back into shape or anything like that.
Stayed perfect.  (Also Brett if you read this there was one of the tape measures left on the 8th hole, its in my car right now so ill give that to you on sunday if you dont need it anytime sooner).