Artic Tundra at Lemon Lake (worst run tourny I have played to date)

[Cannon Boy]

   70 bucks for an advanced team including 5 dollar ctp and 5 dollar ace fund, you get no players pack.  Had a terrible first round.  Went and got food and then got lost for like 5 min and got back 50 min after we turned in our card to realize they had allready started the 2nd round.  Went into the main building to see what hole we were on and nobody was in there nor was there any leader boards or hole Brackets to see what hole we were on.  Found a group that lead us to the right hole but we had allready missed two holes.  Played a pretty good 2nd round from starting plus 8.  Got all the way to neg 2 before we got to the two holes we did not get to play.  Talked are group into watching us play the two holes since most of the other groups had not finnished yet and it was not pdga sanctioned anyway. We dueced one and parred the other, which putt us from neg 2 to neg 11 for that round and in 2nd one stroke out of first.  Our group agreed with us playing the last two holes at the end and when we got inside the TD agreed with us.  After the other groups heard what happened which was fair as hell seing the weather was only worst at the end of the round bitched and moned to the TD cough(mostly Steve Slater)cough.  The TD never even talked to us after he said it was Ok and gave Slaters group 2nd with a neg 8 for the day when we had a neg 13 for the day.  Never seen so many girls   cough(Steve Slater)cough   whine about us not even slowing down the tourny when the last card did not come in 20 min after we finnished are last two holes. 

[K-Biscuit]

that's crap.  thanks for the tip, won't be checking that one out next year

[SnoMoDude]

That sucks dude, that sucks.

[Schuboy]

I was neal partner and seriously this tournament was terrible.  No organization.  They made there own rules and that was that.  So dont waste your time traveling to Homie or any other tournaments there.

[Dan Michler]

Lemon Lake is a great course and I would advise everybody to go play tournaments there.

So you are mad that you showed up late for the 2nd round and they didn't let you play the holes by yourselves???  I'd be pissed as hell, like you keep saying Steve Slater (who played 31 pdga events last year, Cannon Boy and BetterThanNeal played 15 combined, who do you think knows more about tournament play?) was, if they let you play the holes out of the proper order just because you were pissed about your 1st round and took too long getting back to the course.  Don't talk about how the weather was worse or whatever else, that is totally irrelevant.  The bottom line is you didn't play the tournament in the same format that every other competitor did.  Who's to say what would have happened had you played those 2 holes at the beginning WITH your group as you were supposed to.  I could give a sh*& who agreed to it. 

I don't think that TD has alot of tournament running experience and he just tried to do the best he could, obviously it sounds as if he could have been more decisive.

By the way, he is not the TD of the Homie or Indiana States, so there is no reason to boycott those PDGA sanctioned events because you didn't like this event.

[Cannon Boy]

    Dan I when someone tells you that they will let it go since we got lost for a little bit and were not that late and did not slow the tourny down and are group and him agrees with it when we turn in are card way before the last one.  Then when some little girls heard what happen and whine he re nigs and never even talks to us after he said it was cool is just not professional.  I would not care if he told us that we had to take the 7s, but to tell us its allright and then be a bitch later and not even talk to us about it is just low.  Then when we asked him about it after he said all of the groups agreed with that after are group we played with and another said it was cool.  It was not even pdga sanctioned or had a planned start for the 2nd round.  So I dont care how many events slater played or this guy TD'd it was wrong for him to re nig and not even talk to us after everyone there when we turned in are card said it was fine including him.

[Cannon Boy]

Oh and I forgot one last thing,  Suck my Balls Dan

[Jon Brakel]

Just guessing but what probably happened was that some guys in those groups that agreed with you actually didn't agree but said so because they are passive-agressive. They didn't want to make a scene so they let you play them out and then talked to the TD. The TD is probably a get along go along kind of guy so when you presented this problem with a solution built in that seemed fair and other people were allegedly on board, he agreed to let your scores stand as if you hadn't been late returning from lunch. Once the TD was confronted by guys who didn't like that you weren't penalized for returning late, he felt obligated to follow the rules.

By the way, unsanctioned does not mean that the TD won't follow the rules. Most unsanctioned tournaments use the standard rules for disc golf.

It is your responsibility as a player to find out before you leave when you need to be back to the course. Here's a lesson for all you youngsters out there. Pack a lunch! 

Also, you should learn the difference between the word "our" and the word "are". Your post is very difficult to read because you are not using our language correctly.

"Our group agreed that we should makeup the holes."
"We are pissed because we were late to the second round."
Thus endeth the English lesson. Feel free to call me a dweeb for correcting your grammar...I can take it. 

[CEValkyrie]

Neal, let this be a lessoned learned. It's better at a non sanctioned doubles than a sanctioned singels event. If I were the other players in your division I would have bitched too. Getting lost sucks but what can you do? You put the TD in a bad situation. He wanted to try to make it right by letting it go. I can gurantee he didn't want to penalize you. He had to do what is right and by the rules so it's fair to the other players. I respect that decision by the TD. You put him in that position to have to make a decision. Personallly I would have never asked the guys I was playing with to let me play those 2 holes and if I were that group I would have never allowed you to play them.

[CEValkyrie]

I've never played a Bart Zandstra event so I have no idea what type of events he runs.

The Homie & IN States are run by Brian Cummings. Both are good events. You'd be dumb not to play the Homie. That's one of the best events in this area.

[Cannon Boy]

I still want to play Homie I am just pissed about the way things turned out at this event. 

[Dan Michler]

thats understandable.

[The Guest Named Zudong!]

I've never played a Bart Zandstra event so I have no idea what type of events he runs.

The Homie & IN States are run by Brian Cummings. Both are good events. You'd be dumb not to play the Homie. That's one of the best events in this area.

Bart Zandstra is a good guy. He might not have a lot of TD experience and I've never played one of his events. If he is new to TDing an event you should cut him a little bit of slack. You put him in a bad situation...a situation that an experienced player should never put a TD and he handled it as best he could. Consider his first answer to you guys the answer that he made in the "fog of war" and the second ruling that he made to be the correct one.

[Cannon Boy]

I dont know if it was the "correct one" but I dont care anymore and I will not play anymore of his events.

[K-Biscuit]

i have to say, i'm with cannonboy on this one.  i've yet to play any PDGA events, so i guess you could consider that.  anyways, the problem that i have is that the TD changed his mind like that, and even worse, he didn't talk to neal about it.  i don't approve.

[Bruce Brakel]

Your story skips some critical details:

Did you ask when the second round would be starting before you left the course?
Did you come back before that time?

Nobody wants to take long lunch breaks in the winter.  Everybody wants to go to the car, top off the hip flask, and go back out!  

Having the group watch you play the holes you missed certainly is not PDGA disc golf.  You are supposed to take par + 4 for being late.  Asking the players in your group to waive the rules for you is not disc golf either.  "Anybody mind if I take a mulligan?"  I say that about once per tournament, pause, and then laugh!  Anybody mind if I don't take my penalty for o.b.?  You just don't ask those questions.  

Hey, wasn't that tournament an Ice Bowl?  What's the Ice Bowl rule?

[Bruce Brakel]

I do recall instances at Majors and A-tiers where the par + 4 penalty was waived when it was the result of TD error. 

Anyway, this is how I would hope any IOS TD would handle a thing like that at our event:

1) When the passive-aggressive guy comes up to complain about what he agreed to on the course say, "Are you asking for a ruling or just making chit-chat?"  Even if the guy wasn't passive-aggressive in the first place, you still have to make sure what's going on before you start talking rules because otherwise they will trick you into taking a position too early. 

2) If he is asking for a ruling tell him to go tell everyone in the group that you said they have to come talk to the TD.
2a) If he is not asking for a ruling, use your judgment as to whether the issue needs to be resolved.  You probably don't need to resolve whether DFL gets another stroke.  You probably should resolve issues that affect who gets cash or prizes.

3)Before giving a ruling, get the whole group together and hear everyone's side of the story.

4)Look at the rules.  You might do some preliminary rule-reading while the guy is rounding up the group if it is going to be a toughie.

5) Talk to the other TDs away from the players. 

We had an issue at the Homie with the correct tee on one of the temp holes.  Everyone in the group finally agreed on a tee to play, and that we would not try to stroke the players in the lower groups for playing the wrong tee since maybe it was us.  The situation was confusing and it was the same hole from either tee.  Then the passive-aggressive guy decided to make an issue of it behind everyone's back.  He talked to an assistant TD who started handing out strokes without consulting the TD or any other player.  When Jon and I pointed out to Brian that there was never any announcement as to what tees the Am Masters were to play on that hole, and the course routing guy admitted to Brian that his announcement was confusing and that the long tee was not marked with a tee sign, Brian did the right thing and said, "Well, in that case, no one should get any strokes." 

[Cannon Boy]

Here is my major gripe.  I might have messed up by not conferming how long the lunch brake was suppose to be exactly becuase the guys who were with us turned in ours and their card.  We left early becuase Bryan had to charge his phone and did not have a charger and went to a local radio shack because he works at one and they charged his phone for a little bit while we got something to eat. On the way back we took a wrong turn somewhere and were lost for about 5 or 10 min.  When we left from the first round we saw groups walking in from far holes and our card was still not in and that was at 12.  We got back from phone and other stuff at 1 and thought we would still have like 5 or 10 min.  Well I guess we were late and there was no way to even see what hole we were on.  I did not mind that and thought it would not matter anyway after are lousy first round, but we played pretty solid and asked are group if they would watch us play the holes they allready played, since it was not pdga sanctioned anyway it is the TD's decision on weather he would let that go or not.  Then when we came in after we finnished them and we did not waste anyones time since we were one of the first groups(probably while rule was made in first place to save time).  Then we told him exactly what happened and that we got lost for a little but coming back and are group said that they agreed with our score and he said that it is fine and wrote are neg 11 down.  Then after all the other groups came up and people that should not of gotten into the money wanted a rule pressed for us when we had no advantage at all and played the course even quicker than all the other groups and at the same time.  For the TD to go back on his word and not even talk to us and tell us that he switched is mind is BS.  I would have been fine if he came back and talked to us before awards and said he did not realize and was switching his mind.  But to black ball us the way that he did and not even have the balls to talk to us just means he is a pussy in my opinion.

[K-Biscuit]

i dunno how the TD should have handled it, or if he can change his ruling or whatever, but he should have talked to you after he did change his mind.  that would have really pissed me off.  he was a tool not to talk to you.

[Zudong the anonymous]

Without a doubt he should have talked to you. I wouldn't think that would be a reason to write him off as a TD but that would be irritating. I don't know how many players were there or how many people Bart had helping him, but I'd bet that either Bart thought it was taken care of by someone else or he didn't see you and didn't take the time to track you down.