Spring Leagues

[CEValkyrie]

I wanted to talk about this now rather than waiting till the next league starts. Let's add this to the list of discussion topics for the Sunday Meeting.



1. Spring Double League (Sunday @ 10:30AM)-] I know we are playing 5 rounds of best shot, 3 rounds of alternate shot, & 2 rounds of worst shot. I assume fees & payouts will be the same as the past. I don't want to start any arguments or mess up the schedule. I had never played alternate shot until the Milwaukee Ice Bowl. I also heard a lot of good things about the format that Jon had at DISContinuum Ice Bowl. Alternate shot might not work that great for a doubles league since there is an ace pool unless we allow every player to drive. I also think it is a bummer since you will be throwing every other shot if the fees will be the same. We've discussed the handicapping system, it may be even harder if we are using a handicap for this format as well. How about using one of Jon's formats instead of alternate shot?



2. Spring Individual League (Wednesday @ 6:00PM) 18 holes. What will be fee & payout. Ace Pool?

I say we keep this cheap & simple. $2.00 entry. $1.00 to club, $1.00 to payout nightly or prizes at end of league. $1.00 opitional Ace. Do we dare merge the doubles & singles Ace Pool over the two 15 week leagues? Could get big in a hurry!! Bag tags will be great for this format as well. They will add extra incentive to play well.

[jim]

I was wondering when folks would catch on...!  I kinda knew that worst shot wouldn't fly with most people (although every round would be a great tets of skill). But I wanted a lively discussion to see how well the Best Shot format is holding up. Using best shot and alternate shot is easy enough to do, perhaps shadow doubles is good too. Worst shot can be fun, if there's not a lot of $$ on the line (or if its bring your own doubles).

[jim]

OK, now my head is spinning.

After a few days of thinking about all this, my opinion is that we should keep our weekly doubles leagues simple. Part of the whole idea of doubles leagues is to attract new players. Often times, these new players are younger guys, and during the summer, more Juniors show up for doubles league.  If we make it too difficult/confusing, with contingencies and alternate tees and alternating drives, we may lose any new players who do show up.  It might be like walking into an algebra class.

But I'll just speak for myself: if I'm spending energy just keeping up with the format on each hole, I'm losing focus on my game.  I'm no dummy, but these suggestions are confusing me.  I really liked Jon's formats for the Ice Bowl, but I don't know if it would work for our leagues.

We are still forming, learning, and growing. More quickly than I expected.  I just ask everyone to think about this:

Are we biting off more than we can chew?  What is the purpose of leagues?  Are we (will we be?) receiving enough support from within our club (committed volunteers)?

Last year, we did 3 events, 4 safaris, and 5 leagues. This year, we're doing at least 4 events, 12 safaris, 5 leagues, 2 classes, and it is only February. I am sure members will be travelling to more tourneys as well, so who will run all this stuff?  I don't expect Brett, Jon, and myself to do it all. In fact, I want to avoid that. When more than 4 people step up to take some ownership, I'd feel much better about investigating different formats and agendas.

Again, just my 2 cents.......

[jim]

I just re-read my last post and want to apologize if I sounded like a jack***. I'm not trying to be proprietary or defensive, just cautious. I don't want the suggestions/innovations to stop.

[CEValkyrie]

I just thought of this. What happens if we have a midwest player? Worst shot, shadow doubles, alternate shot would not work. Maybe we should keep things the same.

[CEValkyrie]

My vote would be to keep leagues as is. I think our leagues are growing & fun to play. I have everything saved on the computer & it would be very simple to pass to the next person who wants to run leagues. Why make things more difficult?

[jason]

I think we should either keep it straight best shot or throw in a couple days of shadow doubles.  I don't like alternate or worst shot unless you bring your own partner.  

My overall vote would be to keep things the same.  If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

[shawn]

My 2cents, keep Ams cheap, no payout at end of night, maybe 1st place get a disc every night.  Pro division 6 bucks, 1 goes to club, 1 to Am prizes and ctp's, payout 4 to top 2 players.  

Worst shot should be fun If only you took the worst drive and play the rest best shot.  only problem is that if you ace, would you get the ace pot?  and then play your partners shot?

[shawn]

How do you know you don't like it if you never even tried it?  Change is healthly, I it doesn't work don't do it again, lets not give up on a good idea.  Come on troops, let's try it so that future discontinuim golfers don't suffer from our actions now.  let's just make it worst drive and If there is a midwest, this format should not be used.  It's a 10 week league, who said that we had to be precise as to what week we did what, that is way to anal for me.  If it works out to where there is no midwest for a givin week, we should use worst drive for that week.  



Am i wrong?

[Jon Brakel]

I won't play random draw worst shot. I will only tolerate that format in a bring-your-own-partner situation. Alternating shot and the formats I ran would be preferable to worst shot. We shouldn't have a problem with alternating shot, since all players would get the same number of shots at aces. Also we aren't paying a fee to play, we're betting, so I don't think there's a correlation between how much we bet and how many times we get to throw.

[Jon Brakel]

I would play worst drive. And yes, Damon, I was thinking alternating drive. Although in Alternating shot, everyone has the same chance at aces before the round begins--it's just luck as to whether you get the chance or not. Unless you're going to miss a putt to have a chance at the ace on the next hole.

[Jon Brakel]

Damon (02-11-2003 05:10 p.m.):

(Bruce) Shadow Doubles Central Time: The odd man is always an upper player. Played like Midwest except he must declare that he is going to take his second throw before he takes his first throw from that tee or mark.

I don't follow that one. What would be the point of the 'first throw' then?

You could still opt to take the first throw. It would be best shot between the first and second throw. You just wouldn't be allowed to throw the first before declaring that this is the shot you want two throws from.

[Jon Brakel]

I agree with keeping things simple. We have and continue to get new people coming to league who don't know the basic rules. Throwing in a lot of different formats probably won't help them learn the game more. Straight best shot is closer to singles rules than most if not all of the other games.

[Jon Brakel]

Jim,



I thought you were a jackass? HEEHAW!!!

[Bruce Brakel]

I'll probably only make two Sundays in the Spring schedule but I thought I'd express a few opinions.



First, I'm not the MDGO Doubles Czar for nothing.  Two summers ago I ran five PDGA sanctioned doubles tournaments, including the first sanctioned doubles tournament ever, not associated with a Major, to fill a 21-hole course on a Friday.  This was also the first ever doubles series to almost cause three mental breakdowns and almost get me kicked out of the PDGA.  And, all of the players thought it was excellent fun!



Worst shot is not a fun format for an entire competitive event and it is a fair format only if it is bring-your-own-partner.  I'll play worst shot with Jon but probably won't be talking to him for a little while afterwards...



I'm all for playing other formats.  Here are some good ones:



Shadow Doubles -- Jon's ever-popular doubles format.



Alternating Lie Best Score -- Each player plays from his partner's drive, then his partner's second shot, and so on until one completes the hole and the other cannot get a lower score by completing the hole from his lie.



Double Alternating Shot -- Partner A throws two drives.  Partner B throws twice from where it lands.  Whoever completes the hole is not permited to drive on the next hole so that alternating continues.



One problem with all of these formats is that Midwest is not a fair option in every case.  But there are Central Time Zone options:



Shadow Doubles Central Time:  The odd man is always an upper player.  Played like Midwest except he must declare that he is going to take his second throw before he takes his first throw from that tee or mark.  



Alternating Lie Best Score Central Time:  The odd man is always an upper player.  He may take a mulligan, not a Midwest throw, on any drive, but otherwise plays singles.



Double Alternating Shot Central Time:  The odd man is always an upper player.  He gets an extra throw on the throws that the other team has its upper player throwing, drive and third shots, or second and fourth shots.



Finally, philosophically, this is how I think these kinds of things should be decided:  The guy who is volunteering to run the league, tournament or whatever kind of event should make a proposal, listen open-mindedly to everyone's opinion, then he should revise his proposal and submit it to the club for a thumbs up / thumbs down vote.  You will all have more fun that way and avoid volunteer burn out.  It is frustrating trying to run someone else's format.  Formats designed by committee are always lame compared to whatever the original idea was.

[Bruce Brakel]

Probably better than trying to devise format for the odd man in other formats, it would be better to substitute best shot whenever there is an odd man.  



That said, other fun doubles formats will make league more fun.  We play other formats at Kensington and not only does it make league more fun, it repels those guys who don't like it when disc golf is fun.

[damonshort]

Jon Brakel (02-05-2003 12:26 p.m.):

We shouldn't have a problem with alternating shot, since all players would get the same number of shots at aces.

...you mean alternating *drive*, don't you? Otherwise I don't follow.

Shawn Worst shot should be fun If only you took the worst drive and play the rest best shot. only problem is that if you ace, would you get the ace pot? and then play your partners shot?.

I'd agree with all of this, but why not just replace worst shot w/ shadow doubles? ('complete' worst shot could lead to violence, after all...)



Alternate *shot* (not alternate *drive*) figures to go faster, how about making that 27 holes?



I probably can't make singles league this summer w/ Little League and my job situation (assuming I *have* a job), so I'd obviously prefer to keep the ace pools separate. I like Shawn's idea of playing for cheap if you want to though.



As far as handicaps in doubles, the only sticking point I have is when two 'lowers' are a team (-1?) or two 'uppers' (+1?). At least when I get a better partner I feel like I'm learning something and don't mind dropping $6 for it - so we definitely should keep the upper/lower pools.



anyhow, lots to talk about and I'm not even sure I can make it this Sunday...

[damonshort]

CE-Valkyrie (02-05-2003 08:09 p.m.):

I just thought of this. What happens if we have a midwest player? Worst shot, shadow doubles, alternate shot would not work. Maybe we should keep things the same.

Worst drive could sort of work; The midwest player would throw two drives and be forced to take the more worser one (:p) - I guess then (s)he wouldn't have any more extra shots for the hole?



Weren't we going to talk about this at the last meeting? (heh...)

[damonshort]

(Bruce) Shadow Doubles Central Time: The odd man is always an upper player. Played like Midwest except he must declare that he is going to take his second throw before he takes his first throw from that tee or mark.

I don't follow that one. What would be the point of the 'first throw' then?



And speaking as someone who's not in a position to commit to anything ;) I can easily see Jim's point and have no problem with leaving things as they are....