Teerex X vs Teerex vs Tee-Rex

[stpitner]

and according to the flight chart - the JK Aviar-X also follows the same naming conventions as it has a fade characteristic of +2 vs. the KC Pro Aviar at fade = +1

[Bruce Brakel]

Just a heads up for you tournament players, not all of Innova's X and L variations are approved for PDGA tournament use.  You can check the list for yourself, but I'm pretty sure the Teerex X has not been approved.  If there is a Firebird X, it does not seem to be on the list.  Ditto for the Starfire L, or SL.  If you throw these discs in tournaments, you might want to check to see if the list is inaccurate.

I didn't even realise this until Saturday.  Jim Kenner was asking me how the PDGA could possibly approve the Quest Turbo, because it isn't round, and discs have to have a radius and a diameter.  Then he mentioned that a few common Innova discs have never been submitted for approval but left it to me to check the list for myself. 

[stpitner]

Bruce (and all) - the Firebird-X and Eagle-X are the standard Firebird and Eagle that Innova sends out.  I think it's on their invoices or packing slips that make mention of Firebird-X and Eagle-X.  If you look on the bottom of a Star Eagle they are commonly marked (5-pointed star symbol) EX.

As far as I know, the most accurate list is found here (updated through 6/5/07):
http://www.pdga.com/documents/tech_standards/PDGA_approved_discs_and_targets.pdf

You'll see that a lot of the naming convention variations for Innova are not listed.  But then you need to ask is this disc actually retooled or is it more overstable just because of a change in plastic type?  I'm really curious as to the accuracy of this list as well.  Innova doesn't have in their molds "PDGA Approved discs" like Discraft and the other companies.  One really notable disc that I do not see on that list is the SL.  I see the regular Starfire, the TL, and the FL, but no SL.  Intriguing.

[stpitner]

according to that list the Turbo-Putt disc has a diameter of 22.1cm, has a max weight of 183.4g, and was approved on June 5th.

[Bruce Brakel]

I e-mailed the tech standards committee about the SL.  Maybe it is a typo or an oversight.  I don't know. 

According to the tech standards, it is possible that the SL would not have required approval if Innova had continued to call it the Starfire L.  Since they initially called it the Starfire L and then shortened it to SL, maybe that is why it has slid by.  According to the tech standards if you retool a mold and keep the name the same, but don't add or remove a structural feature and don't change the rim width or disc diameter, it does not have to be resubmitted.  So maybe that's why Innova changes the mold and does not change the name, so they can get a retooled disc out faster and cheaper without tech standards approval.

Still, the documents that TDs agree to follow do not say that any disc that meets tech standards is PDGA legal.  They say that any disc on the list is PDGA legal.  The SL is not on the list. 

[UMphreak]

for me there is a huge differnce between the teerexes.  I had a green first run and there has been no teerex that comes anywhere close to that.  It was nice and overstable and could be bombed with a nice head wind.  the other tee-rex are for me slightly more stable and the ones that just read teerex are flippy.  If I could I would only throw the first run but since no one ever wants to get rid of them I so use a max now.   If that dang west lake wasn't there is all I can say now adays.  I havent thrown the x mold but I am believing that it will fly closer to the first run.

[Working Stiff]

According to the tech standards if you retool a mold and keep the name the same, but don't add or remove a structural feature and don't change the rim width or disc diameter, it does not have to be resubmitted.  So maybe that's why Innova changes the mold and does not change the name, so they can get a retooled disc out faster and cheaper without tech standards approval.

I had a conversation with Dave McCormack about that.  He wanted to rename the Element X because it gets confused with the Element, but according to PDGA specs he has to have the disc re-approved even though the disc will remain the same because the name will be changed.   However, when Innova changes molds and keeps the disc name the same the new mold does not have to be resubmitted (think Beast.)  So, the Teerex X is called the Teerex in name and only has the "X" on the bottom.  It does not have to be approved.
If I was Jim Kenner, I'd have a problem with this.  I used to talk to Steve Howle a lot, and I miss hearing all the complaints he had about the Innova-PDGA world.  Dave McCormack has had some of the same problems, so I'm sure Jim Kenner has had problems with it, too.

[jsun3thousand]

Some of the Innova discs on the approved list say "retooled": Aviar XD, Birdie, and Cheetah.  The Cheetah was retolled three years after it was released. Also, some of the Innova discs are listed under their original name and CE version: Aero, Aviar, Eagle, Firebird, Spider, Teebird, and Valkyrie. I know there are a few disc on the list that come in both DX and CE, so are those discs the original mold in Champion plastic? What about Star plastic? What is up with this? Discraft has no retools or an "other" version in a different plastic. Jason

[Bruce Brakel]

The PDGA tech standards do not require a disc to be retested merely because it is molded in another kind of plastic, but if there are issues with the stiffness of the plastic, sometimes the PDGA has requested that discs be retested.  I think that was the deal with the CE discs. 

Many Star Wraiths, by the way, are too stiff to pass the stiffness test.  So many that it has become an issue between the PDGA and Innova.  The PDGA has a list of discs that have failed in follow up testing and the Wraith is on the list. 

[Working Stiff]

The PDGA tech standards do not require a disc to be retested merely because it is molded in another kind of plastic, but if there are issues with the stiffness of the plastic, sometimes the PDGA has requested that discs be retested.  I think that was the deal with the CE discs. 

Many Star Wraiths, by the way, are too stiff to pass the stiffness test.  So many that it has become an issue between the PDGA and Innova.  The PDGA has a list of discs that have failed in follow up testing and the Wraith is on the list. 

That was my understanding also, that the CE discs got enough complaints about the stiffness that the PDGA requested them to be retested.  I've never seen a list of discs that have failed follow-up testing, That would be interesting info.  So, now what happens to the Star Wraith?

[jsun3thousand]

So, now what happens to the Star Wraith?

Innova put Ken's name and image on it. Jason

[Bruce Brakel]

The PDGA tech standards do not require a disc to be retested merely because it is molded in another kind of plastic, but if there are issues with the stiffness of the plastic, sometimes the PDGA has requested that discs be retested.  I think that was the deal with the CE discs. 

Many Star Wraiths, by the way, are too stiff to pass the stiffness test.  So many that it has become an issue between the PDGA and Innova.  The PDGA has a list of discs that have failed in follow up testing and the Wraith is on the list. 

That was my understanding also, that the CE discs got enough complaints about the stiffness that the PDGA requested them to be retested.  I've never seen a list of discs that have failed follow-up testing, That would be interesting info.  So, now what happens to the Star Wraith?

I don't know what is going to happen.  The PDGA is almost as powerful as Innova these days. 

I'm still trying to find out if the SL is legal for tournament use.  The tech standards committee told me that it did not have to be retested because it was a modification that did not add or remove a bead or thumbtrack.  However, Rule 805((12) creates a bright line rule: if a disc is not on the approved list you cannot carry it or throw it in a tournament.  The SL is not on the list.  So I'm waiting to hear from the Rules Committee.

[Mukey]

I hope it's OK. I like my Star SL(ut)

[Bruce Brakel]

I just got e-mail back from both the rules committee and the tech standards committee.  The rules committee deferred to the tech standards committee.  And tech standards said:

Hi Bruce,

The SL has not been submitted to the TSC for testing and approval and so it is not approved for PDGA competition. I've notified both Tim Selinske and Dave Dunipace of that status, but they are yet to send samples of it for testing.

Jeff

[Mukey]

Crap! Add another line to the list of why I should switch to all Discraft, *sigh*

[tacimala]

I won an FLX Pulse this weekend, but that's not PDGA approved!

[Bruce Brakel]

The Pulse was approved on June 29, 2006.  The PDGA does not require reapproval every time the blend of plastic changes.  But you will probably never see a Z-Pulse because it would be too stiff to pass the crush test. 

[stpitner]

I did a check of all current innova discs against the list, and I don't see the SL (already discussed obviously), the TeeBird (although the CE TeeBird is on there, so it might be ok), the Classic Aviar (I'm not sure what this was originally named), and the Pulsar (but this is ok because it's an Ultimate disc and approved by the Ultimate people).  Everything else (including the stuff like the Zephyr, Condor, Jaguar) are all approved.

It's a little confusing with the Aviar because they have Aviar and Aviar Putter listed.  So right there that could mean Classic Aviar and Aviar P&A, but it would leave the Aviar Driver out, or it could represent the Aviar Driver and the Aviar P&A leaving the Classic Aviar out.  I'm also claiming that the Aviar XD (retooled) is = the XD.

So it's a little confusing, but it really is intriguing about that SL.  Are TD's about to start getting really picky about you throwing that disc?  I hope not, but it really does need to get official approval ASAP.

The joys of all sorts of different plastic molds...

[Bruce Brakel]

I would expect that we would play by PDGA rules at the IOSeries.  And so that no one will have an unfair advantage, we will probably announce this. 

I don't know how many other TDs even know about this.  Some Michigan TDs do.  I wouldn't throw an SL at Am Nationals. 

[Mukey]

I would expect that we would play by PDGA rules at the IOSeries.  And so that no one will have an unfair advantage, we will probably announce this. 

No one would say me throwing an SL gives me any advantage   

WTF is all I gotta say about Innova. Dem bastards!! This really freakin blows my mind. Logic would dictate that you get the governing body of the sport to approve new equipment BEFORE retail sales occur. We need to send Brock Samson from the Venture Brothers after them!! F*ckers.


Looks like I'm bringing a set of Discraft discs with me to Highbridge next week to give them some throws. This might be the proverbial straw that breaks the camel's back. More like the stupidity that breaks mine.