Quest Advanced Technology

[skipache]

your highland park stamp was in disc golf world news on a quest/gateway advirtisment

[airspuds]

if i go back to work soon i might be interested in  a couple of those funky baskets

[stpitner]

the Highland park stamp is in the inside cover of the new issue of Disc Golf World too, awesome

[roman]

I bought the Raging Inferno and Raging Inferno DT awhile back and didn't like them at all. Since then my driving style has changed a little bit so maybe I can take them out once more to see how they fly. I tried selling them earlier but I never really followed through with that.

On another note, I did try a few UL Raging Infernos and those things are just hilarious. It's true, they burn out way too easy. It takes a certain finesse to get them to fly more or less straight and it took me a few practice throws to get it down. I never laughed so much while throwing a disc. It takes absolutely no effort to get them to fly so so far. If you put any effort into it you will burn it out. Unfortunately, I left one of my UL discs in the back of my car with a book on it, and the book flattened out the dome part of the disc. I figured "hey, no problem, I'll just leave it out in the sun like my old Aviar and let it get its shape back." WRONG! DON'T DO THIS WITH YOUR ULTRALIGHT RAGING INFERNOS! The thing melted on me. Literally. I'll have to take a picture for you guys. The disc looks like a warped taco shell with some holes burned through it.

The UL RI DT is awesome though, I agree. Not nearly as easy to turn it over but with enough snap it will definitely burn out still. I lost mine the same day I got it unfortunately. I was going to buy another one, but then I found a 150 Champion Valkyrie and it flies very similar so I just use that instead now. Maybe one day when I'm bored I'll get another UL RI DT.

[Working Stiff]

What is going on with the Turbo-Putt?  This is on Marshall Street:

Then, because of pressure exerted on the PDGA leadership by certain manufacturers, the approval was rescinded a few days later. In the meantime, Quest produced thousands of these beautiful, controversial oddities, all with "PDGA Approved," and "Approved on 6/5/07" molded right into the plastic.
You probably won't hear much about this until it's long over, as the PDGA does its best to keep the rest of us in the dark about how it reaches decisions (they roll over like little yappy lap dogs whenever big money snaps its fingers), but this could very well be the disc to burn the PDGA's dirty little conflict of interest fingers. Boy, I wish I were Quest's lawyer. Now that guy's got it made.

http://www.marshallstreetdiscgolf.com/proddetail.asp?prod=turbo%2Dputt%5Fsrp&cat=120

Does anyone know what is going on?  If this is true, I guess we will find out a lot about Brian Graham's leadership in the near future.  I've been wondering if we have a new PDGA, or just a new guy named Brian.

[pickax]

It's still on the approved list dated 6/26/07.

[Working Stiff]

It's still on the Quest site with no mention of anything out of the ordinary.

[Working Stiff]

This was posted today by official PDGA Cheerleader Chuck Kennedy on the PDGA message board:

Disc manufacturers had little to do with the reversal on the Turbo-Putt. The PDGA received several complaints from players (some who have posted on the topic) about this disc not being a "disc" and the issue was referred to the Tech Standards Committee for review and recommendation. It was pretty clear that those on the Committee, which does not have a manufacturer rep on it, felt that only discs with a uniform outside radius should be allowed. I believe the committee's views are in sync with what most feel is a fundamental characteristic in our sport - that the items we throw should be round "discs" on the outside. A recommendation from the Tech Standards Committee regarding this was submitted to the Board and the Board approved it. No sinister back story regarding manufacturer pressure.

If you want a disc some manufacturers have lobbied to disallow, consider the Epic. However, so far the disc has withstood the efforts of some manufacturers to try and disapprove it.

So, I guess it is true.  Get your collectible Turbo-Putt today!

This really does not explain why the Tech Standards Committee approved it in the first place, but oh well.

Addition:  I didn't read the whole thread.  Later Chuck responded to the same question:

Yes. It's primarily Jeff Homburg who just routinely tests discs based on the specs as written with little discussion other than copying the committee on which discs pass or don't pass the tests. It wasn't until the players brought up the question about whether a disc being round was fundamental to the sport that the discussion ensued to revisit the specs in this case.

So Homburg does all the work, and the "committee" rubber-stamps whatever he says.  I guess it sounds more democratic if you give the illusion of a committee working on these things instead of the reality of one guy making all the calls.

It's still on the approved list dated 6/26/07.

It is still on the approved list.  The PDGA must be dragging their feet, mostly because I don't think this has happened before.  There is probably no protocol to follow.

[mirth]

they sure got the SL on the approved list on the site quickly enough... wonder how long it will take to get it off.

[Working Stiff]

I really think the PDGA has blown it on this one.  If Quest decides to sue they will win.  By the PDGA's own admission the disc meets the loosely defined standards that are in place.  Telling someone who has invested in the development of a disc, been given the OK to produce them and now has them out to the public that you have changed your mind because some of your members don't like them...

If I was the PDGA God, I'd let the Turbo-Putt go.  It is a niche disc, it's not going to fundamentally alter the game.  I've been playing for 20 years and I've used a turbo putt maybe a half-dozen times.  This disc is not going to make me suddenly start going turbo putt crazy.  Why let this disc get you dragged into court? 

What I would do is change the standards so that the Turbo-Putt was the LAST disc without a consistent radius to be approved.  From here on out, they all have to be round.  No drawn-out lawsuit needed.  As of right now, they have made the Turbo-Putt illegal and NOT changed the standards.  That is a recipe for making Steve's lawyer a lot of money.

[mirth]

Yeah, I just read the standards doc & it doesn't say it has to be circular... just saucer-like and I know I've seen saucers in my life that have a scalloped edge.

[Working Stiff]

I guess it just me, since there does not seem to be a lot of interest in this subject.  However, I think the PDGA just stepped into deep do-do here.  I'm not saying I like the Turbo-Putt...Hell, I thought the 10 M Brick should never have been approved, much less a flying saw-blade.  I'm just concerned that the PDGA is making a power play here, but their own lax standards are going to get them ripped to shreds if they end up in court. 

I really think they should back off and let Quest have the Turbo-Putt.  Who is going to use it, really?  I don't think this is the disc that makes Climo jump the Innova gravy train for Quest.  The PDGA are the ones that have loose standards, so fix the standards so that we don't have any more of these.  If they loose in court, they may loose the ability to restrict future designs.

Leave the Turbo-Putt approved, fix the standards so that it doesn't happen again, and stay out of court.  What am I missing here?

[Bruce Brakel]

Chuck does not know everything, and of course, neither do I, but I have good reason to believe that employees and shareholders of some of the manufacturers complained very loudly.  You know, like they told me they did?     But those people would also be PDGA members so maybe Chuck is being clever.

I think an argument can be made that the Turbo fails some of the tech standards.  Homburg did not use the actual circumference of the disc but the circumference of the smallest circle tangent to its outer points.  And, the disc has multiple inner rims.  The disc violates the assumptions that the tech standards are based on.  It is like the winning pony at the New York Dog Show!  He might have all the dimensions and lines of a Champion Golden Retriever but he's a pony, dammit! 

As a lawyer, I don't see that Quest has much they could sue about.  The actions of the committees are constitutionally subject to the approval of the Board.  Quest is not going to find any Board minutes approving the Turbo, only a committee finding that the disc meets tech standards.  The most Quest could sue for would be the few dollars of plastic in the few hundred Turbos they made, and KVN's time in producing them.  That's not much to sue for.  The Quest dude is too business smart to get drawn into that.

I think it is too bad the Turbo got nixed, if it did.  I was looking forward to the square or oval shaped putter that would never roll away.   

[pickax]

It would be best if they left it alone and updated the rules to prohibit clones. I'd be annoyed if a disc was legal when I bought it and then could no longer use it due to a status change.

[Working Stiff]

In the end it doesn't matter, and I'm not trying to argue...BUT (which means I am arguing anyway) the disc was (actually still is strangely) on the list of PDGA approved discs, so I think the case would be fairly strong.  The disc may or may not fail tech standards (since they are vague) but the disc WAS approved by the Tech Standards committee...which means it passed tech standards.  You are right that it would amount to peanuts unless they were to get the disc reinstated, which I don't think a court of law can do.

From my standpoint if I was Quest I'd let it go because the disc was going to be a low volume niche disc anyway (its not like they de-certified the Inferno) and if you want to make a go of it in disc golf, the PDGA is the only show in town. 

Steve Howle was in court with Innova all the time, but I don't think he ever sued the PDGA.  He was all ticked off about being blocked from sponsoring the Worlds one year, but I don't think he sued.  Anyway, that is the only other way to go.  Lightning has divorced themselves from serious tournament players and goes 100% after recreational players.  Given Quest is based on technology and the improvement of the golf disc, they have to target the serious tournament players.  And that means playing ball with the PDGA.

How tied up the PDGA leadership is with Innova, Discraft, DGA and any other potential conflict of interest  is a subject for another day.  Chuck Kennedy I'm sure was being clever...Dave Dunipace is a PDGA member, so he can send in a  "player complaint"  can't he?

Anyway the whole thing just sent me off on a anti-PDGA rant, which really isn't that hard to do.  I've been complaining about it for three days now, but really it is just a rumor.  The disc is still on the approved list, there has been no formal announcement that I have seen from the PDGA, and despite what they announce (if they ever announce anything) is the general consensus that Innova flexed its muscle and had this disc killed.  The de-certification of a disc is about unprecedented, yet it has not created any buzz amongst PDGA members.  Heck, Hoeniger wouldn't have even needed to crash the message board due to the small ripple this has caused.  Since no one else cares, I guess I'll drop it.

What thread was this anyway?  Oh, yeah...Quest.  Has anybody thrown the Rock-It yet?

[roman]

Alright guys, here is the picture as promised.

This is why you shouldn't leave your ultralight out in the sun for too long. I don't know if the the other UL discs suffer the same fate as the UL Inferno, but I don't feel like finding out.

[Cannon Boy]

I dont know what you did to that frisbee roman but I have had over 50 quest drivers and none of them have even come close to that.  Most of my quest discs hold their shape and flight pattern longer than the innova and discraft I used to use.  I do not throw any ultra lights my self but I have some friends that use them and they have never had any problems with them.  You might of got a bad mold or you just get really pissed off at your frisbees. 

[mirth]

neal, a near the top of this page roman talks about how the disc got left in a very hot place & this is what happened to it.

[roman]

Yeah, I left it in my car with a book on top of it and because of the heat the disc got all soft and the book flattened it out on the top. I left the disc in the back window of my car for a day to see if it can get back into shape and that's what it turned into. I've done this before with Aviar putters (heck, I still leave them out there for days to get them gummy sometimes) and they hold up just fine.

Just a word of warning, not bad mouthing Quest or anything I know some people that leave their discs out in their car in the sun and I'm just saying that they shouldn't do that with the Ultralight Infernos.  I have a regular RI and RI DT and they're just fine in the heat.

It's a shame, too. This happened only 2 days after I bought the disc.

[kyle]

The PDGA site just posted an announcement on the Turbo Putt

http://www.pdga.com/documents/2007/Turbo-PuttAnnouncement.pdf