HANDICAPS for Leagues

[shawn]

The really only good way to find out how good a new player is to ask the people who he came with to tell you how well he or she is, compared to them.  Also watch new people putt at the practice basket (we need to get 1).  Once you play area tournaments you can place the face to their game, I'm bad with names but I remember players who I have seen at events.

[shawn]

singles league will be by division, so handicaps will not be needed.  What are the next leagues by the way?

[shawn]

I have about 20 understable disc I can donate for the class, maybe give them away and I can help teach a few of the dates as long as they don't conflict with leagues at Parkside.

[shawn]

handicaps suck

[shawn]

Just read the post from Pat.   Thanks, you had me laughing loud enough to wake Carolyn and get her pissed off at me.  It was worth it...



If anyone wants some advice, ask me.  I try not to blurt out to a person in the middle of a round that they are doing something wrong with their form, as it pisses most people off.  But if you ask, I will help.  My prices are always free, I love seeing players get better and rip a disc on a sweet line.  Look at Brett, Myk or Dr. Dye, they can rip it now.  I payed my dues for years, not winning anything, to get to the stage where my game is now.  I still have lots of room to improve, but I am more confident in my game now.  



By the way, Aced #13 long at Parkside today.  It has been almost a year since my last one.

[shawn]

Jon that is exactly how I was going to propose a club system.   When we start up singles we can get a good idea where people really stand.  We will need about 7 events from players to figure out a players rating.  This is where the PDGA kicks ass.  In my opinion, this is the best benifit about my PDGA membership.  They keep excellent stats on their members.

[shawn]

Whatever....

[shawn]

Damn fingers typing what I'm thinking...  Is 3 rounds really that accurate?  Yes it can be done with 1, 2, or 3 rounds but 7 is more realistic.  Dropping the 2 worst rounds.

[shawn]

Ya, I threw a lazer down the fairway.  I was shotting with Mark Peterson and he called it about 100ft out.  When we were on #10 he asked me,"want to play 5 bucks for an ace?"



He still kicked my ass...

[Myk]

I have always wanted to warp the minds of small children and adults with my poor skills and lack of ability.  In other words, count me in for the class.  I get out of work at 5 during the week, so I may have to run straight there after work and be a little bit late.

[Myk]

kids are handicaps!!  :P  love ya

[Myk]

I have to agree with the doc on this one.  Every time we're getting ready to end one league and start another, we bring up handicapping because someone's not happy about it.  As the old line goes, "You can't please all of the people some of the time, or some of the people all of the time, so you might as well please some of the people some of the time."



I feel we should vote on keeping the handicaps or losing them.  Don't change the way it's done if we do keep 'em.  That's just my opinion.

[Myk]

Good deal on that Ace on 13 long.  That's a really tight little fairway.

[myndcraft]

/me awaits the Spring Singles League



which I prolly won't be able to play, but am doing the handicaps for.

[Jon Brakel]

Handicaps are tricky because you are trying to boil down thousands of variables down to a 1 or 2 stroke advantage. For an example I will use Shawn and myself. Shawn has a PDGA rating of 932 and I have a PDGA rating of 905. In terms of PDGA tournaments this would make me eligible to play in the middle amateur division or higher and Shawn would have to play advanced or higher. The difference between our ratings is 27 points. The PDGA ratings docs say that 30 points is equal to about 2 or 3 strokes per 18 holes played. So, for arguments sake, lets say that 27 points is equal to 2 strokes per 18 holes.



Based on this information giving me a stroke when I play in the upper makes sense. However, you have to question what 18 holes the ratings docs are referencing when they say that 30 points is 2 or 3 strokes per 18 holes. If Shawn and I play 18 holes of disc golf against each other and all of the holes are 200 feet and mostly open, who has the advantage? I would say that none of those holes is challenging enough to differentiate our abilities. Now say we play a course that is 18 holes 250 to 300 feet and most of them are woodsy tunnel shots. I have not seen Shawn play a course like that, but I know on courses like that I can hold my own against most mortals, so I'm thinking I have a good shot at beating him. Last scenario. Shawn and I play against each other at Bevier. Just thinking of the cement tees, are there holes that differentiate between our abilities or are they holes where somedays I make the birdie and somedays he does? I know Shawn has an advantage on #9 because he usually makes it over the creek and I have never made it over the creek. However, he doesn't always make the deuce once he makes it over and I have made the deuce twice from the other side of the creek. Maybe Shawn has a 1/2 stroke advantage on 9? On number 2, I have only driven to within 50 feet of the basket once, but I did convert the birdie. I have seen Shawn drive basket high on that hole but don't know if he converts the birdie regularly. Advantage anyone? Number 5 and number 7 favor his abilities a little more than mine, but I couldn't say that gives him a 1/2 stroke advantage. Are there holes that I have an advantage over Shawn? So, how many stroke advantage does Shawn have over me at Bevier? Or does he have an advantage? I don't know. I know he has somewhere around a 2 stroke advantage on an "average" 18 hole course.



Now I have compared one aspect of our handicap system to two players. Now we just have to do this to all possible matchups to see if the system makes sense. The problem is we don't have enough data to match up Shawn and I, who are both PDGA rated, let alone anyone else. So, what do we do? Is there a system that would please all the players (yea, right!)?



This is perhaps why most disc golf leagues don't use any handicapping system. However if we were to stop having a handicap system, would it be fair to make someone play up when not enough upper people show up?



I know I've thrown out a lot of questions here, and not many answers, but these are the things I'm thinking of and I think we should all think of them. I'd love to read some answers even if I don't agree with them.

[Jon Brakel]

DR DYE (02-03-2003 05:27 p.m.):

I agree mostly with the book Jon wrote.



In that its hard to say when someone should or shouldnt get a handicap, when there are so many variables.  But, what about someone who has only played a couple of rounds....EVER.  And lets just say, I get paired up with them.  Dont you think I should get a handicap...  

But how do you decide what the handicap should be? There are as many different abilities of "newbies" as there are new people. If someone hasn't played, you don't know what their ability is. Do you ask them on a scale of 1-10 how bad they think they're going to suck at this game? Flip a coin? Consult the Magic 8 Ball?



Whatever the answer to the handicap question is, if handicaps are used we have to use information that we have, not speculation of how we think a player might play.

[Jon Brakel]

I don't think we should change the rules in the middle of a league, but I would support doing away with handicaps at the end of this league unless someone can come up with a system that addresses some of the shortcomings of the current system.

[Jon Brakel]

I'm going to generate "PDGA ratings" for everyone who plays leagues that has played a singles event with PDGA rated players. They won't be PDGA sanctioned ratings, but the PDGA ratings people have proven that ratings based on only a few rated players are accurate. Once I crunch the numbers, maybe we can use the ratings not only to decide who plays upper and who plays lower, but also for some kind of objective handicap system. I'll try to get something together by the league meeting, but I'm not promising.

[Jon Brakel]

Steve (02-07-2003 01:15 p.m.):

Jim (02-06-2003 09:37 p.m.):

OK, another thing to vote on at Sunday's meeting. If you can't make it, voice your vote here.

I like Jon's idea about a player rating, but what would it be based on?   Someone who regularly plays Bevier under par would obviously have a better ranking than someone who can only par it on a good day, but how do you figure out the inbetween?  Anyway, handicaps have got to be used to keep the interest and the people, but at the same time, the person who had the best round (not always the best player, mind you) is definitely entitled to their win.

I would base the ratings on the players that have pdga ratings, the same as the pdga does, using the same methods they do. A rating of 1000 means that you will shoot the world class par on any particular course. There are a few pro players with ratings over 1000 who then should be able to shoot below the wcp (world class par).



An immediate benefit to having ratings of all of our players is that who plays upper and who plays lower on any given day, would be objectively decided for us. The half of the group with higher ratings plays upper the lower rated players play lower.



A side benefit would be to track your improvement. Lower rated players can see significant changes in their rating if they are at the point in the learning curve that strokes are shed easily.



If we decide to keep handicaps for doubles we could use rating points to decide what if any handicaps are given to a particular team. In one scenario you could add the ratings of each team and give handicaps for the lower combined ratings. We could make brackets and handicap the brackets. So, if your team has a player in the 1800-1850 bracket you get x handicap. I'm sure there are other ideas. When we look at how the ratings look after I crunch them, it might be obvious what we should do. (Or perhaps we will be muddled in debate for eternity. ;p )

[Jon Brakel]

We need to have about 3 events per player to get an accurate result. We don't need to wait for 7 events. See my thread on club ratings to see the ratings from the 1st safari event.