What makes a good tournament?

[can't putt]

It seems to me that Illinois tournaments have simply become one big league.  In my opinion, tournaments should be EVENTS.  Events that one puts on their calendar weeks in advance, looks forward to, and prepares for.  Neighboring states put on events.  Homie, Mad City Open, Northwoods Open all come to mind.  What separates these tournaments from the run of the mill?  What makes a good event?  What things detract from an event?  Should there be more distinction between tier classifications for Ams?  In other words, should a B-tier offer more event-wise than a C-tier other than just a higher entry fee and bigger points multiplier?  What are your thoughts?

[Bruce Brakel]

Hype.

Hype makes a good tournament.

Last year the am player pack at least one of those tournaments sucked and the payouts were nothing special.  The TD didn't know the rules and didn't know Novice is a different division from Recreational.  But they have hype.  So everyone goes and everyone says its a great tournament. 

[Tom McManus]

It seems to me that Illinois tournaments have simply become one big league.  In my opinion, tournaments should be EVENTS.  Events that one puts on their calendar weeks in advance, looks forward to, and prepares for.  Neighboring states put on events.  Homie, Mad City Open, Northwoods Open all come to mind.  What separates these tournaments from the run of the mill?  What makes a good event?  What things detract from an event?  Should there be more distinction between tier classifications for Ams?  In other words, should a B-tier offer more event-wise than a C-tier other than just a higher entry fee and bigger points multiplier?  What are your thoughts?

There are a couple of things that make a good event. Things that I like at an event:

1. A good course.
2. Lots of players.
3. Score cards or tees with the distance clearly marked. 
4. Nice course routing.
5. A players pack with a choice. 
6.  A TD/TDs who know my name, or at least make an effort to address me directly.
7. A course that is closed to casual players.
8. Scores are posted with in a few days and turned into the pdga in a reasonable amount of time.
9. A tourney that starts on time, has an hour for lunch, and wraps up on time.
10.  A TD who doesn't have a problem giving out prizes if an individual has to leave early.
11. Nice tropies, or at least an effort to have trophies.
12. Having food for sale at the event is nice.  Having lunch/dinner is nice but not high on the list.
13. If the course is average, adding a couple of extra holes is a bonus.

Things I don't like at an event:

1. A crappy course.
2. Not having a players pack without annoucing there won't be a players pack.
3. Scorecards/tee signs without distances.
4. Not getting the scores reported.
5. Poor scheduling between events. (Two events running the same day.)
6.  No trophies or crappy trophies.
7. An hour and a half between rounds when there are 20 players.
8. Not starting an event on time.

Things that are nice but not critical:
1. Food.
2. Custom stamped discs.
3. Lots of CTPs.

I think pointing out the Homie, Mad City Open, and the Northwoods Open is a little bit unfair.  Northwoods and Mad City are long running events, each by the same TD.  It is typically the only event that they run.  Both of them have fine courses. Both of them have become well known because they are long running.  The Homie is a special event thanks to Brian and the help of Matt's parents. Without the outside help the Homie wouldn't be what it is.

One event that wasn't mentioned that I think has become something special is the Capital City Challenge.  Brad, Jim, and the rest of the Springfield Disc Golf Club have worked hard to make this a special event.  I think that there is room in the schedule for "events" and for "tournaments".  I don't know if it is possible for a TD to run more than one "event" a year.  There are other "events" in Wisconsin and certainly some in Michigan.  Events take time, there certainly is some word of mouth, good promotion, and a sense of history.  Maybe even hype, if you run a great event,but don't promote it, people are not going to show up.  It seems to me that the nature of disc golf there is a certain amount of turnover.  If you don't put up flyers, if you don't "hype" your event, no matter how good it is, attendance will suffer.

Wisconsin is extremely lucky to have some dedicated TDs who spend a great deal of time on "their" event.  There is a little bit of a competition going on up there. 

I think part of it comes down to expectations, in my opinion "events" are a bonus, but should not be considered the norm.  I am grateful to the TDs who chose to run events. I think there is a place for both "events" and tourneys, I stay away from the ones where I have been disapointed in the past.

[Dan Michler]

I agree with Bruce that hype is important.  A good way to create hype would be with heavy promotion through flyers, internet, pdga tour schedule, and word-of-mouth.  Look at the IOS for example.  2 years ago all of the things I mentioned were happening in heavy doses and the tournaments were fantastic in my opinion.  This year...flyers?  pdga tour schedule?....I think we've seen the results of not hyping a tournament and perhaps not bringing quite the same energy level into the event as in the past.  It clearly makes a difference.

I'm just a player though and I'll try to support as many Illinois events as I can whether they are 'hyped' or not.  At the end of the day I just want to play and compete for as cheap as possible and be sent home on time.  If there are a ton of players, food on site, and lots of prizes, thats all great too but not vital for me personally. Not much we can do about the courses.  Clearly if we had a Lemon Lake facility things would be easier for our TD's.

The factors, in order, that I consider when deciding whether to attend:
#1  Distance from home
#2  Price to play
#3  What day is it on, I like Saturdays better than Sundays.
#4  Course
#5  How many people will be there
#6  The TD, do they have a good reputation for running smooth events and getting people in and out in a timely fashion?  Do they get their results turned in on time?

NOTE: I don't think I've ever considered the potential amateur payout and decided NOT to go because of it.  Its really far less important to me than having a cheap entry fee.

I agree with Kurt, the Homie is a fantastic tournament in my book because the courses are really fun and there is a ton of good competition at that event typically.  Also, the entry fee is very reasonable, they give me free lunch and dinner, and if I cash I will get more than what I think I deserve.  Sure, I wish they got me home quicker, but the goods outweigh the bads.

[can't putt]

Excellent points, all!

Personally, I would give putting circles high importance for creating an event.  Lunch is high on my list as well.  Wind flags are a nice touch, but probably pretty low on the cost/benefit continuum.

How about additional games and contests after the final round?  Are these appealing or annoying?

I agree that there is room for both more casual tournaments and events.  I think the IOS Rockford A tier last year was an example of an event.  As was the Fox Valley Metro tourney at Oswego earlier this year.  But I also think that the local scene is becoming saturated with C-tier style events charging B-tier prices.  Obviously, if the market supports this -- fine.  It looks, however, that the market is a little soft as tournaments are not filling this year as they did last year and the year before.

The thing I see that all the "events" have in common is a group of dedicated individuals trying to put together a disc golf experience for the players.  Many of the other Chicago area tourneys seem like nothing more than a business plan.  Using that model, we as consumers can have an impact on the market.  If we are being charged high tournament fees then lets expect high tournament quality in return.  

Edit -- The Oswego tourney I am referring to was actually last year.  The Veteran's Tourney.

[Bruce Brakel]

What Chicago area tournaments charge high entry fees? 

[CEValkyrie]

As a player & TD I respect anyone trying to run an event. Even the smallest events take a ton of work and financial committment. The more items you add (trophies, painted circles, etc..) the harder it is to meet the bottom line. The larger the event is, the more volunteers you need. Finding people that don't want to play is very difficult. There are a ton of different philosphies to running an event. None are right or wrong. People aren't making a lot of money running disc golf events. I'm always happy when a TD has all the information about the event avaliable ahead of time. Alot of the smaller events bring out new players.

I'd argue that Peoria and Hamilton will be comparable to any of those events. I thought Sinnissippi was a great event as well. There are positives and negatives of running 1 and 2 day events. There is 1 course in the Chicagoland Area that would be comparable to any on the list. I'd say that would be Highland in Joliet and i'm sure you could argue that. Hopefully the event in October will be comparable to some bigger events. I think it has potential to be that.

My expectations vary from one event to the other. I played an A-Tier that I will never go back to. When i'm paying $100 and staying over night I expect the course to be marked prior to the round. I've been back to the same B-Tier every year even though the guy with the registration cards showed up an hour late and there always seems to be some type of debacle. The free lunch and dinner makes up for it.

Entry fee, distance, course, & number of players are my biggest factors.

I cannot stand contests and games after events. They take forever!

Don't be that guy that goes up to the TD immediately after an event asking for your prizes. Have someone pick them up for you or wait untl the storm has passed.

[Bruce Brakel]

So what are the three best tournaments you've played this year?  And why?

Roscoe's Revenge - Ams: Unbelievable amateur value, good course, efficiently run, really nice TDs, cheap lunch available at the course, Kira won in Advanced Women

Harbin Rat: 200% amateur value, good course, efficiently run, really nice TDs, Kira won in Rec Men

Michigan State Championships: good amateur value, great courses, efficiently run, I got to hork off Peter Wyngard in an official capacity, I threw a 980 round in the MA2 pool that would have been 1000+ rated in the pro pool. 

All three of these had hype.  Two filled on pre-reg and one didn't fill only because they ran four pools. 

[CEValkyrie]

1. KC PRO/AM Worlds
What an awesome week! The $225 entry fee was worth every penny. The courses in Kansas City are very fun and rival Des Moines as my favorite place to play disc golf. I have some great memories from this event.

2. Greater Peoria Open A-Tier
3 really fun coures with an $80 entry fee. Free place to stay. 50 + pros with great payouts. Loved the 27 hole layout with tee times on Sunday. I played good Saturday and got a chance to sleep in Sunday. Event ran smoothly.

3. Mad City Open A-Tier
3 really fun courses. $100 entry with 47 pros. Solid payouts. Event ran smoothly even with nasty weather on Saturday. 1 round Sunday morning. I waited around for the final 9 to start and everyone to clear the pavillion. I asked nicely to get my check. They gave it to me and I was home before the final 9 was done.

4. DISContinuum Presents IOS #3 Sinnissippi Open B-Tier
Best 1 day event I played all year. 48 holes of disc golf for $50. Fun course and great payouts. 32 pros. Lunch offered onsite for a very good price.

The Homie will be added later this year. Always a big turnout & free lunch/dinner.

[tacimala]

So what are the three best tournaments you've played this year?  And why?

This is probably a good way to answer the original question and stem some good opinions.

MI State Championships - Great camping, great area and great courses. When you don't miss the first 4 holes, it's also of good value on the payout side. Fun to watch the final 9 skins game. I'll let everyone know again next year that they should go even though no one else ever has yet!

USADGC - This tournament would be up at the top if it wasn't as stressful! Very well run and makes you feel like a true disc golf professional. Great atmosphere, caddy books, tons of spotters, announcer on the first tee, food all day and a good gallery to boot. Making a great shot on the 18th hole in front of a ton of people is always fun, great to sit and watch and catch up with friends.

Cracked Plastic/Lumberjack - I almost look at these two tournaments like one tourney since they are a month apart in generally the same area. While a bit pricey on the entry fee side of the table, you get a 2 disc player pack and lunch between rounds. Teepads are well de-iced and taken care of for February/March and they get the competitive gears turning for the upcoming busy season. Good payouts at the end of the day and some of the more competitive couple of events of the year since they are the only B tiers for hundreds of miles those weekends.

Homie is always a great event regardless of whatever new setback comes up with the crew running things and would be on any list like this. I have also always enjoyed the Channahon Classic and Prairie Open when I've been able to attend.

[Dan Michler]

#1 KC Worlds
900 players and I got to be around the best in the world.  Really fun courses and the event ran smoothly for a whole week.  A great disc golf vacation.

#2 Sinnissippi
Free place to stay, good entry fee, great course, well run but a LONG day!

#3 Libertyville
Close to home, cheap, great course setup with 11 extra holes, tourney run smoothly.

Hopefully Hamilton and Springfield will be moving onto this list after the year is done.  Unfortunately I have to miss the Homie.

[tjdub26936]

It seems to me that Illinois tournaments have simply become one big league.  In my opinion, tournaments should be EVENTS.  Events that one puts on their calendar weeks in advance, looks forward to, and prepares for.  Neighboring states put on events.  Homie, Mad City Open, Northwoods Open all come to mind.  What separates these tournaments from the run of the mill?

I agree that there is room for both more casual tournaments and events.  I think the IOS Rockford A tier last year was an example of an event.  

You mention several two-day tournaments as "events".  If you can leave the house after 7 AM and get home before 7 PM the same day, is it much more than a long day playing disc golf?  One day tournaments sure are convenient, but they lack an "event" luster.

There aren't too many multiple-day tournaments around here, and that goes for the midwest in general.  Look at the sanctioned B-tiers in June of this year:  seventeen events in western/southwestern states and they are ALL two days; eighteen events in midwestern states and only three are two days.

It helps to have multiple quality courses and compentent TD's to draw a) a lot of participants & b) some notable touring pros, for a two-day tournament.  Most tournaments around here have one or the other, but seldom both.

[stpitner]

It seems to me that Illinois tournaments have simply become one big league.  In my opinion, tournaments should be EVENTS.  Events that one puts on their calendar weeks in advance, looks forward to, and prepares for.  Neighboring states put on events.  Homie, Mad City Open, Northwoods Open all come to mind.  What separates these tournaments from the run of the mill?

I agree that there is room for both more casual tournaments and events.  I think the IOS Rockford A tier last year was an example of an event.  

You mention several two-day tournaments as "events".  If you can leave the house after 7 AM and get home before 7 PM the same day, is it much more than a long day playing disc golf?  One day tournaments sure are convenient, but they lack an "event" luster.

There aren't too many multiple-day tournaments around here, and that goes for the midwest in general.  Look at the sanctioned B-tiers in June of this year:  seventeen events in western/southwestern states and they are ALL two days; eighteen events in midwestern states and only three are two days.

It helps to have multiple quality courses and compentent TD's to draw a) a lot of participants & b) some notable touring pros, for a two-day tournament.  Most tournaments around here have one or the other, but seldom both.

This could easily lead to a discussion on how we need better courses out here in order to have a good enough reason to make it a multiple day tournament.  A lot of these courses it's either 1 set of shorts and 1 set of longs or two sets of the same tees, and ok, I'm satisfied.  A player going back a second day to play the same thing again would be boring.  You either need to find another good course that's in the same area to keep things interested or just leave it at a one day tournament.

I would love to see more people step up that want to help run an event and make more enticing events happen.  When you have a limited pool of available people to help make things happen, you wind up with your hands tied and can't do as much.

[Chainmeister]

I haven't played as many events our tournaments or whatever this year so I cannot give a list of the  so-called good ones. The one factor that seems to exist on all the good ones is volunteer help.  Its great when a small group of people or a single person runs a tournament.  This is because the number one factor for my attendance is a combination of geopraphy and time that has nothing to do with whoever is running things.  There are great events I can't get to and less great ones that fit into my schedule. However, its always better when there are more friends, family, helpers or whever around to make things work.  Some people look for a great course or a great TD. Bottom line- I pretty much know that if Adrian Sr. is at an event its going to be a good one. If players are stepping up to help the TD it will be even better.

One element that I do not like is small pools for ratings purposes. This has happened in tournaments that I have really enjoyed this year.  The TD wants to make it easier for lower rated players and has them play all shorts.  Inttermediates and above play all longs or longs/shorts.  There is a round where some of the players on the course are on the longs and some on the shorts. This leads to statistical anomolies because there is a smaller sample of players and because there is a higher precentage of unrated or non-member players in Novice and Recreational divisions. I would rather play Advanced and come in last and get a more accurately rated round than win Novice and have a screwy rating.   The solution- have everybody play the same course during a given round.

[Jon Brakel]

According to the tier requirements I don't think B tiers were ever exclusively meant to be "EVENTS". The minimum distance between two B tiers is 100 miles. Expected minimum amateur attendance is 48. Minimum number of holes played is 36. PDGA per player fee is $3. Minimum cash added if pro B tier is $500. All of those numbers mean to me that we should not expect B tiers to be "EVENTS" but rather tournaments. That does not mean that some people will have B tier "EVENTS".

When the IOS was established 7 years ago there were no sanctioned tournaments on any of the courses that we ran tournaments on for at least 10 years. Our goal was to run efficient tournaments that we wanted to play. Running split day tournaments enabled all of our volunteers to be able to play at least one day and we were able to accommodate all divisions in one weekend.

In order for the IOS tournaments to step up to event status we would need a handful of volunteers to step up in addition to the people that already help run it. There are way more people that help other than Brakels and Brett that many people don't know about. It would require another platoon full of people to put on what most people would agree is an "EVENT". If interested in volunteering for the 2010 IOS, please contact me!

[dana]

I like having all tournament information (layouts, times, special rules, player party, etc)  posted online well before the event.  No surprises come Saturday or Sunday morning.

Food is great, free food is awesome.

Yesterday at the Pataspco Picnic, they had food waiting for us and 2 kegs of beer (1 was Sierra Nevada). 

[can't putt]

I think I painted with too broad a brush in the OP when I said "Illinois" tournaments.  I am not familiar enough with tournaments outside the greater Chicago area.  What I meant to say, and should have said, was "Chicagoland" tournaments.

So, there is some variation in what people like, but in general it seems the things that make tournaments good are the things that require a lot of volunteers.  I think this is consistent with what we see in "event" tournaments -- they are often run with a lot of club and/or family support.  Given that, why do we pay the same or more for local tournaments that don't have the ammenities that volunteers can provide?  Why is the most expensive tournament in the area this year a Pro-C/Am-B tournament in a run down park with dirt tees and very limited volunteer support that charged $52 for open divisions and $32 for all am divisions if they pre-registered?

If we are going to have so many tournaments offered throughout the year, shouldn't the run-of-the-mill tourneys be priced more like some of the non-Chicago B and C tier tourneys?  The Capital City Challenge is coming up priced at $40 for open, $35 for advanced, $25 for intermediate and $15 for rec.  All players will recieve a dry fit shirt in their player's pack.  This is the value I'd like to support in the Chicago area.  Let's reserve the high fees for the few special events that clubs can put together.

[Bruce Brakel]

If the most expensive tournament in your area is $32 for Advanced, I'd say that's pretty cheap compared to most areas.  Except when I've played an IOS, $32 for Advanced is probably the least i've paid anywhere in the five states i've played in this year. 

As for charging all divisions the same, if they are all getting the same deal, why shouldn't they pay the same price?  Whoever came up with the idea that Rec or Novice should be a ghetto division with a cheap entry fee and little or no payout?  Or that Advanced should bear all the burden of tournament overhead with higher entry fees? 

Whoever they are, they can feel free to run that tournament. 

[stpitner]

If we are going to have so many tournaments offered throughout the year, shouldn't the run-of-the-mill tourneys be priced more like some of the non-Chicago B and C tier tourneys?  The Capital City Challenge is coming up priced at $40 for open, $35 for advanced, $25 for intermediate and $15 for rec.  All players will recieve a dry fit shirt in their player's pack.  This is the value I'd like to support in the Chicago area.  Let's reserve the high fees for the few special events that clubs can put together.

This paragraph gives a bad analogy.  The CCC did get a sponsor to give away polo shirts, but only if you pre-reg'd before a certain date.  That promotion is now over, and everyone playing is not receiving one.  I played this event last year, I had a great time.  The club did a great job pulling it together, and I'd love to see clubs pull together more events more than just me or the Brakel's or another Chicagoland TD trying to pull something together.  The entry fee was also $15 for Rec.  Last year I got a regular t-shirt and a water bottle (higher divisions also got a disc).  There was a trophy disc for 1st place, no additional payouts.

If you really want to compare, the "high fees" at my tournaments will get you a $15 Reward dollars player pack and $15 Reward dollars added to the payout purse for your division.  Then it's typically about $3 Reward dollars added to the CTP/Top Your Card prize pool.  So for every $30 entry, $33 worth of prizes get paid out, and that's if I have zero additional sponsors.  This year I've had additional sponsorship from Fade Gear, Clash DVD's, my own company, and I'm sure other places (I'm sorry for forgetting who you are off the top of my head).

It hasn't been established that $30 is a high fee - there are some that are higher than this, and some that are lower than this.  I encourage you to play in a "run of the mill" Chicagoland tournament instead of making presumptions.  I know you played the Ice Bowl and I see on the PDGA site that you played the GMO this year - I don't know if there was anything else since the last ratings update.  The last one that I ran myself that you played was Irish '08, and yes, that was a debacle on my part because I spent all my time making the player handbooks that people enjoyed but also said weren't required.  I did not expect 80 walkups on a frigid weather day.  I would encourage you to check back in at another tournament to see how things have changed.  In fact, I dropped the prices by $5 across the board for Channahon this weekend to encourage more people to come out and play.  It's a perfect opportunity.

[can't putt]

I hope to be at Channahon this weekend.  I was glad to see you lower the price.  Hopefully that will help you fill some spots ... I know pre-reg is pretty low to date.

IIRC at Bloomington/Normal last year (two years ago?)  $5.00 Rewards was not the equivalent of $5.00 Cash.  Does that still hold true?