What makes a good tournament?

[stpitner]

That is correct, but if I was to accept an entry fee of $30 cash and then give away $33 cash, that certainly sounds like a terrible waste of my time to be there.  Keep in mind that there's also the $3/player PDGA fee that TD's pay for B-Tiers (all but one of my events have been AM B-Tier, so even the Pro's I have to pay $3 each), there's $75 sanctioning, $50 insurance, and depending on the course, course rental and pavilion rental fees.  Reward dollars just give me back the cost + sales tax on my discs (core price and minimal consideration for the overhead costs - shipping to get the discs, fees if I had the discs already listed online, etc).  It's the same concept as brass cash except I offer cash payment discounts right on the price tag.

I've taken about a dozen pre-reg's in the past 24 hours, so it's starting to pick up.  Make sure to pre-reg because it's $5 higher at the tournament.  Actually, you need to defend your Grandmaster title!  I have 6 pre-reg's for Advanced Grandmaster already (1 is sitting in my email not on the list yet).  A lot of the "regulars" that talked to me at the Ace Race told me they were planning on signing up this week as well.  There should be at least 50-60 players each day.

[can't putt]

Al Babbe won Adv. Grandmaster at Channy last year, not me.

[stpitner]

well, I meant the Irish You the Best of Luck @ Channahon victory.  Sorry, I was going for extra incentive

[CEValkyrie]

$52 for open divisions and $32 for all am divisions if they pre-registered?

 The Capital City Challenge is coming up priced at $40 for open, $35 for advanced, $25 for intermediate and $15 for rec.  All players will recieve a dry fit shirt in their player's pack.  This is the value I'd like to support in the Chicago area. 

$52 and $32 for Ams & Pro events is standard to what is being offered across the country for 1 day events.   Most of the time that is on the lower side in terms of Adv and Pro. I am one that agrees with Bruce. I don't believe the higher am divisions should have to pay more than the other am divisons. Making a choice strictly on entry fee promotes sandbagging.

As far as the CCC. Several years ago the entry fee was $40 for the Advanced Amateur Divisions and $30 for the Intermediate Divisions.
http://discontinuum.org/index.php?option=com_smf&Itemid=26&topic=3539.0

Along with the cheaper lower divisions comes another problem. I heard quite a few of the Recreational players complaining at the CCC about not winning anything.

I actually think the value at Chicagoland events in terms of entry, player packs, and payouts is above the norm compared to other scenes. There isn't much that can be done in terms of the courses that are here. If we had courses that some of the other places have you'd have people getting turned away at every event.

[CEValkyrie]

While i'm on a roll.

Trophies are a very tricky situation for TD's.

Cost. IMO there are many lame trophies that cost a lot of money. The more money put into trophies for the few, the less payout for the others. I have seen very few good trophies over the years and expect nothing special for C & B-Tiers. I am fine with an event giving out lame trophies knowing they didn't take away from the payouts.

Number. There are a ridiculous amount of divisions offered at events. Do you purchase a $20 trophy for the Advanced Masters Division and hope one shows? Ok, 2 Advanced Master registers so you get a trophy and they decides to change to Advanced. What do you do with the $20 trophy you had made.

I've seen some very creative trophy options. Some better than others. It usually comes down to a volunteer who donates time and material.

At the end of the day I don't believe trophies make a good event. The players getting them are already happy with the way they've played. The majority of the field really does not care since they did not get one.

[Tom McManus]

While i'm on a roll.

Trophies are a very tricky situation for TD's.

Cost. IMO there are many lame trophies that cost a lot of money. The more money put into trophies for the few, the less payout for the others. I have seen very few good trophies over the years and expect nothing special for C & B-Tiers. I am fine with an event giving out lame trophies knowing they didn't take away from the payouts.

Number. There are a ridiculous amount of divisions offered at events. Do you purchase a $20 trophy for the Advanced Masters Division and hope one shows? Ok, 2 Advanced Master registers so you get a trophy and they decides to change to Advanced. What do you do with the $20 trophy you had made.

I've seen some very creative trophy options. Some better than others. It usually comes down to a volunteer who donates time and material.

At the end of the day I don't believe trophies make a good event. The players getting them are already happy with the way they've played. The majority of the field really does not care since they did not get one.

Regarding trophies,  there have been a couple of recent events that I have attended where there haven't been trophies at the event.  I understand about not having a trophy prepared for every single division.  But with the larger divisions there will be players.  I am sure everyone has their own opinion, and I don't know the official pdga stance, but wouldn't trophies be considered part of the payout?

I am not saying a good trophy makes a good event, but not having a trophy at all seems like the TD wasn't prepared for the event.  This isn't a complaint, I realize that being a TD takes a great deal of effort, which I truly appreciate, but not having any trophies the day of the event at least for the bigger divisions seems a little lackadaisical.

[Bruce Brakel]

Every dollar spent on trophies takes potentially two dollars out of the am payouts, since trophies cost real dollars and ams are paid in funny money.  And for the pros it is dollar for dollar if the TD charges the pros for their trophies.  Most pros, about 60-40, are fine with no trophies at all at a C or B tier.  I've actually done surveys.  The rest, like Brett, prefer something that is homemade and not cash sucking.

I like to get a trophy when I win.  It helps me remember the tournament.  I doubt I would remember a stupid unsanctioned Tom C. doubles tournament win if I didn't have the ugly trophy substitute his father-in-law made sitting on my shelf.  I have all 3 of my my trophies for pro wins on my wall.  

I liked the IOS dyed trophy disc concept.  Those trophies only cost the tournament $8 each, or so, and about 12 hours of my donated time each tournament.  Those trophies cost every cashing am 4 funny dollars per tournament on the average, first through last cash.  That's not too much to pay.  

[Jon Brakel]

Trophies are figured into the payout that is reported to the PDGA but trophies are not a PDGA requirement. I agree with Brett and Tom. A good event should have trophies and the TD is cool if he can keep the price down so that it does not deter from the other prizes. I am proud to say that no IOS has taken money out of the payouts to pay for the trophies. Ever.

[pickax]

Trophies is the main reason that I want to limit the division options when I run tournaments. It's too easy to get stuck with some if people flop divisions or ask for a refund that night before. Trophies cost either time or money. If they are used great, but I don't like to waste either of those if I don't have to.

[CEValkyrie]

Trophies is the main reason that I want to limit the division options when I run tournaments. It's too easy to get stuck with some if people flop divisions or ask for a refund that night before. Trophies cost either time or money. If they are used great, but I don't like to waste either of those if I don't have to.

I agree 100% with you there Mike. The funnest tournament i've run was the Chicagoland Am Champs where there were only 4 divisions. I had the trophies done weeks in Advanced. Although they are supberb they are a decent trophy option. Along with limiting trophy options it makes everything much easier to deal with when the divisions are limited.

[tacimala]

From my perspective, I don't care if the cost is $25 or $50 as long as it's competitive and even mostly well run. Cost is a very limiting factor to me, but it seems to be growing in high importance for a lot of people. Not that it shouldn't be, just seeing that a lot lately. I also like less divisions, because I feel that it makes it more competitive. More people in a division means that each shot counts more and more. I personally don't think it's necessary to have age restricted divisions when there are 5 potential rating based divisions when including open in the mix.

[Bruce Brakel]

In my opinion, what would really make a good tournament would be if we were to jettison this idea that pros play for cash and ams play for discs.  Why not, top division plays for added cash when the TD really has some and isn't just skimming it off the ams, and every other division plays for their own entry fees? 

I always hear TDs, like Pitner above, claim they aren't making much off the merchastravaganza aspect of the amateur tournament, but they make some money on cash sales.  I know that was true for me, but i had higher expenses than your average merchlord, and back when i ran tournaments closer to home I always fattened the am payouts.  So if you're not making that much humping the discs for Innova et aliunde, why do it?  If you weren't giving away so many discs as part of the break-even amateur carnival game, you'd surely sell a lot more. 

This is what I'm suggesting:

A one-day tournament with a really low entry fee, like $5 for pros and $10 for ams.  The entry fee pays for PDGA fees, sanctioning and insurance, pavillion rental, trophies, and if there's money left over, cash CTPs.  My spreadsheet says there will be $400-$500 left over for cash CTPs if it fills.  A $10 cash CTP on every hole every round. 

Everyone has the option of paying $20 or $40 towards the cash side game.  We divide the field into equal sized flights based on PDGA rating, and each flight plays for the cash they put into the side game.  Half-in players play by IOS Half-In rules. 

We'd limit pre-reg to PDGA members with ratings because this would fill every time and we want rated players for the side game.  For a full field of 100 players, five 20-player flights seem about right to me.

If there is actual sponsor or club added cash it all goes to the top flight, and anyone who'd rather play for the added cash than play in the flight indicated by their rating can sign up for the top flight.  It would be a sucker bet, but there are always suckers for every sucker bet! 

I've broken down a couple of our tournaments using this format just to see how it shakes out.  Your top rated advanced players and top pro masters lose their protected status and have to compete to cash.  And they often do cash.  The middle flights are really competitve, and you never know where the breaks will fall.  Sometimes only 30 rating points separate the top from the bottom in the middle flights. 

The bottom players in the bottom flight lose their protected one and two-player divisions.  Maybe they want to opt out of the cash game.  That's their call.  Maybe they want to sell hot dogs and make some money.   

[fathergod]

In my opinion, what would really make a good tournament would be if we were to jettison this idea that pros play for cash and ams play for discs.  Why not, top division plays for added cash when the TD really has some and isn't just skimming it off the ams, and every other division plays for their own entry fees? 

I always hear TDs, like Pitner above, claim they aren't making much off the merchastravaganza aspect of the amateur tournament, but they make some money on cash sales.  I know that was true for me, but i had higher expenses than your average merchlord, and back when i ran tournaments closer to home I always fattened the am payouts.  So if you're not making that much humping the discs for Innova et aliunde, why do it?  If you weren't giving away so many discs as part of the break-even amateur carnival game, you'd surely sell a lot more. 

This is what I'm suggesting:

A one-day tournament with a really low entry fee, like $5 for pros and $10 for ams.  The entry fee pays for PDGA fees, sanctioning and insurance, pavillion rental, trophies, and if there's money left over, cash CTPs.  My spreadsheet says there will be $400-$500 left over for cash CTPs if it fills.  A $10 cash CTP on every hole every round. 

Everyone has the option of paying $20 or $40 towards the cash side game.  We divide the field into equal sized flights based on PDGA rating, and each flight plays for the cash they put into the side game.  Half-in players play by IOS Half-In rules. 

We'd limit pre-reg to PDGA members with ratings because this would fill every time and we want rated players for the side game.  For a full field of 100 players, five 20-player flights seem about right to me.

If there is actual sponsor or club added cash it all goes to the top flight, and anyone who'd rather play for the added cash than play in the flight indicated by their rating can sign up for the top flight.  It would be a sucker bet, but there are always suckers for every sucker bet! 

I've broken down a couple of our tournaments using this format just to see how it shakes out.  Your top rated advanced players and top pro masters lose their protected status and have to compete to cash.  And they often do cash.  The middle flights are really competitve, and you never know where the breaks will fall.  Sometimes only 30 rating points separate the top from the bottom in the middle flights. 

The bottom players in the bottom flight lose their protected one and two-player divisions.  Maybe they want to opt out of the cash game.  That's their call.  Maybe they want to sell hot dogs and make some money.   

I completely agree with you!    I know a guy who typically places in Adv and he gets disc after disc which is great but money would be nice.  Especially if he decides to drive to places like Wisconsin or Indiana

[can't putt]

I like that idea, Bruce.  In fact, I like it lot.  The hitch I see is that people who find themselves on the flight bubble won't know in what division they would fall until registration is complete.  Their decision to opt in to the side game could well be dependent on that breakpoint.  Opting in or out after the flights were established would solve that problem, but would increase pre-tournament complexity and time. 

Still, I like the idea.  It solves one of my biggest pet peeves  -- being forced through registration fees to buy crap I don't want.  Like Damon, I appreciated and availed myself of the trophy only option.  It's not that I mind paying for value -- far from it.  It's that player packs or forced consumerism from a single source don't represent value to me. 

[Bruce Brakel]

The bubble boys' dilemma is part of the thing. 

Most pros would get in for full because that's what they are used to paying for a tournament.  Most intermediates and rec players would get in for half because that's what they are used to paying.  But if most middle ams do get in for half, then there's an incentive for a middle am to get in for full in hopes of cashing and sweeping up all those unclaimed halves.  So there's some game theory at work there. 

I would get in for full because in every scenario I've run, the 930-940 rated amateur has a fair chance of cashing in the second flight. 

[Mukey]

1.Distance.
Driving sucks. Getting home at a decent time is cool. TD rep with smoothly running also comes into play here.

2.Good Am value.
Whether that be a player's pack upfront (so I have fun even when I play bad) or low entry fee or lunch.

3.Good course.
Unless #1 is an issue.

[Bruce Brakel]

I think Mukey's top three are a lot of players' top three. 

For me it is

1. Good Course.  I'll play sucky am value tournaments on a good course.  From looking around, it is clear that most players will.

2.  Good Value.  I'll drive a long ways for good value.  The drive home is not as far when the TD runs a fat tournament.  And I'd rather the value be more in the payout and less in the amenities.  If the value is there for the taking and I don't take it, it is enough that it was there.  If I suck, I'm fine with the long drive home empty handed.  It is motivation not to suck the next time.  Or at least to bag a little the next time!  From looking around, most players are not as value sensitive as I am.  Another thing about player packs is, let's make the pro entry fee $100 but every pro gets $50 back at registration.  How dumb is that?  That's a player pack.  You pay for it at registration.  The one year we did optional player packs on the a la carte system, that was good value, but it was too much to keep track of.

3. Distance.  Distance is an issue.  So is whether a TD knows how to run a tournament and plays by the rules.  But I'll still drive a long ways for good courses and good value, even if, year after year, the TD runs the tournament with his head up his butt.  The Northern Waters used to be like that.  Good courses and good value, weird "local rules" and at the end of the tournament you'd wait an hour after the last card for awards because all the TDs were playing the tournament!   

Once you've said to yourself, "I'll never go back to that tournament again," then you really know what's important to you. 

[tjdub26936]

How about the use of different tees on the same course?  I understand sometimes having the Pro/Adv divisions playing longer tees than Int/Rec/Nov, but making things complicated is asking for trouble.  Two recent examples come to mind:

Wildcat Springs this weekend:  the second card in the Pro Men division (all veteran players, including two world champions) played the incorrect (long) tee on a hole, the only hole where two tees were clearly visible.  No mention of different tees by the tournament staff, but I heard Avery say something like "Pro weekend, pro tees" as the reason for him assuming they were expected to play the long tee.  The tournament director appropriately issued penalty strokes.

Indian State Championships last month:  While most holes on the silver course at Lemon Lake had multiple tees, the tournament director chose TWO that ONLY THE OPEN MEN were meant to play from the longs.  This was stated at the players meeting, but the three different course rules handouts led some people to other interpretations.  One sheet said the Open Men play these two long tees.  Another listed holes one through eighteen on the silver course, with "Gold Tee" & the distance listed next to holes #5 & #16, but no indication which division or divisions this applied to.  So, some advanced groups play those holes from the longs, some from the shorts, & some one of each after being told by others in the advanced division that they played the first one wrong.  Here the tournament director oddly LET ALL THE SCORES STAND regardless of which tees each golfer played.

If a course had two complete sets of tees, each round should be all of one or the other.  But if only a few have more than one, that can cause confusion.  Worse yet, there ARE 36 tees, but only certain divisions play the longs from SOME holes.

Obviously, easy to use/interpret handouts and discussion of tees at the players meeting SHOULD do the trick, but anyone could insist that they know what's right and that, yes, the Pro Grandmasters should play from the long tee on hole #11 because four out of five of them regularly played this course back in '88 when that was the only tee for #11.

IOS tournaments have done a good job keeping it simple (KISB = Keep It Simple, Brakel/Brett) and over-communicated the tee instructions, thanks guys.

If you are playing a tournament on your home course, YOU should be the authority on town-crying the TD's choices for tees to all ye who would listen.

[Dan Michler]

Interestingly, I was told by more than 1 local on Friday that those longer tees would be played by the Pros.  Why would they have put the effort into building that wood box tee and putting out that rubber mat on 11 if we weren't playing those tees?  It was a confusing situation that was bound for disaster, especially because as Tyler pointed out, the situation was not mentioned once in the player meeting.

Assume everybody is completely ignorant to the rules as a TD and you'll be better off.  Assume people know whats going on and you'll run into the situations Tyler described above.

[can't putt]

IOS had a problem with the #2 tees at Jericho Lake a couple of years ago.  That is a very confusing situation as there is no really intuitive way to know which is the "long" tee as they are side by side.  Long term players know the original concete pad is the short, but in the first round of the tournament there was some confusion.  Second round, IIRC, the dormant tee was ribboned off.

Regarding trophies, I think there may be a different concensus between pro and am players.  Pro players are probably more focused on payout, while ams might be more focused on ammenities.  I think it is perfectly reasonable to only offer trophies for pre-regged divisions, and I think most players, especially those in small divisions, recognize the dilemma.  As an am, I like trophies.  I especially like unique trophies.  And I like them to be presented during the awards ceremony at the end of the tournament.  Personalized trophies fit the unique bill, but are more difficult to have available at the event.  Terry Miller was able to arrange for personalized trophies at the GMO this year that were ready for the awards ceremony.  That helps make a tournament good.

Another thing that makes a good event, IMO, is an awards ceremony with an audience.  This doesn't happen if players are allowed to cash out early, and if the merch table is open prior to awards.  I think cashing out early is disrespectful of the trophy winners.  It's also unfair to those who cash but wait for the awards.  Finally, it is a distraction that can delay the awards for those who wait.  The merch table should be closed from when the last card is turned in until the end of the awards ceremony, especially if the TD is also running the cash register.  If you have to leave early, take Brett's advice and arrange for someone else to pick up your winnings.