What makes a good tournament?

[Bruce Brakel]

TD screw ups on which tees, baskets or holes are in play are totally avoidable.  That does not happen at a well run tournament.  At a well run tournament, tees, baskets and holes that are not in play are obviously not in play. 

At the Wildcat, if the TD never said which tee was in play, I don't know how he could stroke the only group that was not psychic!

Tee assignment screw-ups seem to be a perennial feature of any tournament at Lemon Lake.  This actually happened a couple of years ago.  At the player meeting, Dude announcing this stuff: "On the new course, all pros and advanced play the long tee on hole whatever.  I don't know the number. It was a temp hole that no longer exists.  All other divisions play the short tee."  Me: "How about Am Masters?"  Dude, with exasperated at the idiot tone:  "Am Masters play the short tee."  So when we get to the hole the guys with honors are teeing off from the long tee before I even realize this is the hole with two tees.  We argue about which tee to play.  They insist we play longs because the advanced players  in our pool are playing longs.  I announce that I'll play a provisional, and if they want to play longs, that's fine by me.  I get a four from both tees and it becomes mute.  Some weasel on some other card sees me playing the short tee so at the end of the round he tells the TD's helper that I played the wrong tee.  The TD's helper gives me a two-throw penalty without ever consulting me or anyone on my card.  When I finally get it straightened out, it turns out I was the only one who played the correct tee.  I get rid of my two-throw penalty, but they don't give everyone else a two throw penalty.   

At the Aurora IOS I remember we announced it three times at the player meeting.  Half way through the morning we put big sticks on the dormant tee.  [I like that "dormant tee."  Never heard that expression for "tee not in use" before.]  One group may have actually moved the big sticks out of the way so that they could play the wrong tee!    

[stpitner]

IOS had a problem with the #2 tees at Jericho Lake a couple of years ago.  That is a very confusing situation as there is no really intuitive way to know which is the "long" tee as they are side by side.  Long term players know the original concete pad is the short, but in the first round of the tournament there was some confusion.  Second round, IIRC, the dormant tee was ribboned off.

Regarding trophies, I think there may be a different concensus between pro and am players.  Pro players are probably more focused on payout, while ams might be more focused on ammenities.  I think it is perfectly reasonable to only offer trophies for pre-regged divisions, and I think most players, especially those in small divisions, recognize the dilemma.  As an am, I like trophies.  I especially like unique trophies.  And I like them to be presented during the awards ceremony at the end of the tournament.  Personalized trophies fit the unique bill, but are more difficult to have available at the event.  Terry Miller was able to arrange for personalized trophies at the GMO this year that were ready for the awards ceremony.  That helps make a tournament good.

Another thing that makes a good event, IMO, is an awards ceremony with an audience.  This doesn't happen if players are allowed to cash out early, and if the merch table is open prior to awards.  I think cashing out early is disrespectful of the trophy winners.  It's also unfair to those who cash but wait for the awards.  Finally, it is a distraction that can delay the awards for those who wait.  The merch table should be closed from when the last card is turned in until the end of the awards ceremony, especially if the TD is also running the cash register.  If you have to leave early, take Brett's advice and arrange for someone else to pick up your winnings.

Well thank you for slamming my tournament once again.  While I didn't have the personalized trophies available on Saturday, I did have the ones that won on Saturday available on Sunday, and the winners on Sunday received their personalized trophies at the end of the day on Sunday.  The remaining winners from Saturday will have theirs mailed out tomorrow.

It would be great to have an audience at an awards ceremony, but a lot of people I've noticed really just don't care.  You sound to be an exception to this.  A large majority just want their stuff and want to get out of there.  Some people asked for their stuff early so that they could get on the road to get to other commitments, and I obliged them.  It made my life a whole lot easier at the end of the day with far fewer people trying to check out in the merch raid.  In no way should the merch be closed from the time of the last card to awards, especially when you have other people working on the leaderboard to get it cleared up.  People that aren't cashing and don't want to think about all of the people that beat them just want to spend their player pack and go.  If you want to have someone else pick up your winnings, that's fine, but that also adds a lot of extra communication to the TD to make sure that the appropriate people get the appropriate winnings.

[Bruce Brakel]

We did pool by pool awards at the Rockford A-tier which meant only 30 or 25 players were at each awards, and I did not hear any complaints.  A lot of players said at the end of their round, "Can I get my stuff and leave?"  And I said, "As soon as the leaderboard is done, everyone in your pool can get their stuff and leave.  Awards are ... right now!" 

Back when Brett used to do the Safari Final Four at IOS tournaments we did relaxed early payouts for anyone who wanted to get their stuff and go.  I don't recall hearing any complaints.  It was strange, but I preferred that. 

At Mark's TADGA tournaments, he does awards for some of the players, and while they are shopping he gives out some merch CTPs.  And then he does some more awards, and while they are shopping he makes announcements.  And then he does some more awards and then gives out some CTPs.  I understand why he does it this way, given what the T in TADGA stands for!     I've never heard any complaints. 

In Texas one particularly strong-willed TD issues "awarding passes" with the payouts.  You get a slip of paper with an A, B or C on it and the A's go first getting their stuff.  This might work for a TD who would like to reduce the insane merch frenzy at the end of the tournament. 

[pickax]

Typically I've done awards with the micro divisions first, working up to food chain to MA1 and the do the pros. I'm wondering if it should be the other way around.

[stpitner]

I've gone micro -> biggest for 2 reasons: 1) build up to the best, 2) make sure the people from up top don't just take off and leave even fewer people around to cheer for the micro division winners

[Bruce Brakel]

No.  You are doing it the right way.  The micro-divisions have a lot of players who actually care about awards and getting their trophy.  At the top of the food chain, they just want their cash and prizes.  The top advanced players know they are a bunch of baggers who won only because they bagged yet again.  The top pros aren't playing for the applause and the adoring crowds.  On the rare occasion when they have adoring crowds, and a big lead, they throw their drives at the crowd.

Wait.  Is this mike on?  

[can't putt]

I'm not intending to slam your tournament, Scott.  If you had trophies available for those who played Sunday at the Sunday awards, then you fall into the category of having done it right, don't you?  I'm guessing you did not on Saturday for your stated reason of not having an appropriate picture.  That's preparation on your part and an area that could possibly be improved.

Regarding cashing out early, people respond to what they are used to.  We are gradually creating a culture of skip the player's meeting, cash out ASAP, and get the hell out.  That's too bad IMO.  It's all about makiing sure I get mine and the hell with everyone else.  I think we should re-establish a culture of an awards presentation that acknowledges the winners, allows for a thank you here and there, and then moves on to merch sales.  One of the best post tournament meetings that I attended was again courtesy of Terry Miller at last year's GMO.  He had the pavilion for the day and after the last card was tourned in everyone gathered inside.  Volunteers were acknowledged, CTP's were awarded, payouts were announced and distributed, and trophies were awarded.  All to an appreciative group.  It was a fine ending to a fine day.  If the expectation is to stay, then people will.

I appreciated that your tournament started on time.  I appreciated that it seemed to flow quite smoothly.  I appreciated the clear 2nd round tee off time being announced prior to lunch.  I appreciated your watching the weather and trying to get the 2nd round off to an early start.  I appreciated the putting circles that Frank provided and all the effort he puts in to that course.  And I very much appreciate that you stepped up to run the event at Frank's request.

[Bruce Brakel]

You are right about the change in culture.  When I first started playing the losers stuck around for awards.  It was just part of the thing.  Everyone who played knew everyone else and a tournament was like a big family reunion where you invite the distant cousins from out of town.  This was before everyone had internet and cell phones, when people used to communicate and share information by talking when they'd see each other. 

Disc golf has grown too fast for us to control the culture anymore.  The McDonalds culture has come in and taken over. 

[Dan Michler]

I guess I'm part of the culture you guys don't like then.  I hate most awards ceremonies because of their length.  Mad City had me pulling my hair out.  I do agree that the winners should be acknowledged and I like to know who won each division.  However, I do not care who got last cash in Intermediate or Open or any other division and I definitely don't need to know what their score was.  Announcing every single player who cashed can take an eternity when you have a large event where 25 advanced players cash and 34 intermediate players.  It can take even longer when you have a TD who likes to talk alot in between announcing each player's name.

I would like the awards ceremony to consist of a quick thanks to the helpers, and a presentation to all those who won trophies.  Quickly say the names of all those who cashed in rapid order and ask them to come up after the awards to receive their prize.

[pdga#7648]

Having trophies available at the tournaments is a must, and  should always happen. If not, then whoever won a trophy should get it quicker than 3 months later, or longer.
Other than that all the Northeastern Illinois tournaments are ran perfectly. Always start on time. With an hour or longer for lunch(always nice) and usually get to leave realitively quickly.( would be longer if I ever cashed)

I do agree with Dan on the fact that hearing who got 18th in the rec division isn't really necessary, I know most disc golf players can read. And the lines for cashing out could be alot shorter, by paying out only the top 3rd in each division. Not paying 50% of every field. Reward the winners a little more for their accomplshments.

[Bruce Brakel]

Every time I'm almost ready to send you your trophy, you start complaining publicly, and that glimmer of caring gets snuffed out. 

We pay 50% of the field because we are running PDGA sanctioned tournaments. 

[CEValkyrie]

Every time I'm almost ready to send you your trophy, you start complaining publicly, and that glimmer of caring gets snuffed out. 

We pay 50% of the field because we are running PDGA sanctioned tournaments. 

Is public complaining not allowed?

[Bruce Brakel]

He can complain all he wants.  It just isn't working for him, unless what he wants is the opportunity to complain some more.

[stpitner]

Thanks for the clarification, Kurt.  I think that if we want to go to a model where people stay for the ceremony and everyone enjoy it, then the (at most) top 5 would get announced for each division.  The rest pick up their prize before or after.  Dana did top 3 at GPO this year, and I liked that.  The only thing I would have changed would be top 5 instead of top 3.  There was one player on Sunday (I won't say your name so that you don't have to think about your round) that was telling people "don't clap!" after I announced his name for a near the bottom of the payout grouping.  So you have the feeling that the people that finish about 33%-50% in the overall field weren't too happy with their overall performance, but didn't stink it up quite as bad as a bunch of others.  But as Bruce mentioned, it's a PDGA tournament, where you have to pay out 45 or 50%.

[ChrisPUTTS]

For the most part each of the tournaments i have every played (not many 6-7 now) have been very enjoyable and run smoothly.  About staying for awards.. i can understand if you are driving a distance to get home on why you might want to leave early and not listen to the awards ceremony.  I thought it was a little crazy at the Indiana State Champ. that the lower divisions that played white and red waited for all the cards to come in.  I think our rounds ended about 4:15 and the past pro cards were coming in about 6:30ish...  I don't know, i guess i just have to get better...

[thatguy]

<<edit by moderator: have some balls jdunk or don't post!>>

[Mukey]

rant
Sometimes I hate the internet
It's soo easy to spout negativity without creativity, or willingness to contribute
end rant

How hard is the ratio of prizes upfront or possibility of prizes later w/player packs to understand? If Scott increased his fees in order to payout better & so he doesn't lose money, would as many people come?

Big circumstance & everyone sticking around for awards for $30? Most of the tournaments mentioned, Homie, GMO, CCC, are established & worth driving-to draw type events. The courses don't hurt at all either. Most of these have some type of after round food also. If I'm not in the tip top or have won a CTP I'd like to get on the road.

Let's change this thread to "What Would You Do at Your Own Tournament"

Everyone knows I'd find a way to get food if I ever ran my own tournament

[Chainmeister]

I like to stay for the awards ceremony whether I am getting something or not.  I like to support the TD and the players. That being said, disc golf is a part of my life not all of it.  I am already spending an entire day away from the rest of my life and it often beckons as the day comes to a close.  I often miss the cereemony was I am rushing off to something else.  This is the balance of my life and I presume the balance of many others as well.  If I win something and cannot be there I will usually search for somebody to pick it up for me.  The main issue is the time lag between last card, posting of scores and awards. I think most of our local TD's do a pretty good job on this front. What can we do during this time period?  Rather than running to the car to get the post round beer, we can keep an eye on the merch while the TD adds the scores or perhaps we can help going over the cards, or if Mike K is not there helping to rearrange the finished scores in order so the TD can figure out who gets what, running the playoff CTP, shagging discs from the playoff CTP,or doing whatever needs to be done.   I can do that even if I cannot stick around for awards. Another 30 minues can go a long way.

[AO]

My question is...would disc golfers like everyone called up that cashed for their prize or should just the top 3 of every division be recognized?

[pickax]

There is also another aspect to the question of calling up everyone for their prizes. The TD does not necessarily know who everyone is. By paying out rewards publicly in front of everyone, the chance for a charlatan to walk away with the prize for someone else is greatly reduced.