Rules question !

[airspuds]

too lazy to look up and not enough coffee yet

a couple of situations yesterday

1.  disc lands in big patch of nasty thorn bushes on RED C (new temp hole) and they were nasty
     unplayable lie ?  relief ? penalty ?  suck it up and throw ?

discer sucked it up and threw but incurred some damage to skin

2.  Red 7  disc is right behind little tree in middle of fairway
     if you throw from right behind mini full speed you will smash hand on tree
     do you get 6 inches from behind mini

3.  Cry-@$$  syndrome
     at IN state in the second round i played with someone who made everyone in the group miserable
     threw chair, kicked bag, extra drive (  i think ) on Blue 6 the long one but after every every every throw
    no matter where it went , the kid whined, bi*(&ched , moaned

im sure if the kid hit an ace he would moan that someone else had one earlier and that he would have to split the money

again remember we are playing INT and its the second round - the last cards or close to last card

so the question is -  yesterday if i was on his card for the second round can i call a courtesy violation on him before the round starts in front of the TD or do i have to wait for the first whine

the reason i ask is that the guys who i played with in the first round who were +7 and pretty cool got stuck with the kid in the second round and i was in the group behind them and kinda knew he was going to whine,bO&ch , and complain

i asked the guy from K-zoo and he said the kid's whining affected his and the other guys game
so back to the question - can u warn him based on prior experience or do you wait til the first whine

again we're playing INT - we know we're not good - and again im not like trying to get in his head to screw with him
im just to old to babysit especially on the course

[airspuds]

plus he is not a current pdga member

[pickax]

1- If you land in thorn bush, you may opt to declare an unplayable lie, move back up to 5 meters( or go to the previous lie) with a +1 penalty. Otherwise you play it there.
2- You get 30cm behind your mini. Of course if you just use your previously thrown disc (rather than marking it) you end up with essentially an additional 21cm. Even better is learn to throw alternate types of shots (e.g.  sidearm, throwing from your knee, or backhand backwards) and not worry about hitting the tree.
3- You can't call a courtesy warning on someone until they do something that warrants it. If you were aware going into the round, the best thing would be to talk to the TD and see if either he or an official can take some preemptive measures.

[Dan Michler]

I have a question that is a little hard to describe.  The disc lies partly underneath a sort of "shelf" created by a tree root.  The shelf is about 6 inches above where the disc lies.  The player could mark his disc and get a stance behind that mark.  However the player wanted to throw from on top of this shelf.  So I guess the question is; Does your lie extend infinitely vertical?  Or do you have to throw from the same surface that the disc is on as long as its playable (obvioulsy you don't play from up in a tree)?

[pickax]

You need to play from the same playing surface as long as it is playable.

[skipache]

suck it up and throw because if you were in that bad of thorns, you shanked it badly

[Bruce Brakel]

The rules are ambiguous by virtue of their failure to address layered playing surfaces.  The rule writers assume throughout the rules that the course is flat.  The Board wanted this addressed in the major rules rewrite when I was on the Board, but the rules committee was too focussed on playing other games.  

I think an argument can be made from the stance rule that you can take the vertical relief when there are two playing surfaces.  The stance rule only says that you have to be on the line of play.  The line of play is not defined as an imaginary straight line, but more like a line that follows the contours of the playing surface.  It is "on the playing surface."  

The Rules Committee essay on bridges suggests that the rules committee thinks that you must play from the surface you landed on when there are overlapping surfaces:

"Conclusion: You play a disc on a bridge as you would play it anywhere else on the course. Assuming the bridge is not OB, you mark your lie on the bridge and proceed with the hole. If your disc lands under the bridge, you play it from under the bridge, taking any OB into consideration as you normally would. Of course, the TD or course designer is free to make any or all of the bridge OB, in addition to the creek below."

The Rules Committee essay on cracks in the ground is noncommittal.  It says to ask the TD how to play it.  

The way to play that, or any other scenario where you are not certain which is the proper way to play it is to play it both ways, record both scores and ask the TD.  I have been in the situation where we just went with the group decision and got burned for that when some weasel in the group later brought it up with the TD.  I have been in the situation where we went with the group decision and some interloper on another card made an issue of it.  

Play it both ways.  record both scores.  Ask the TD.

[airspuds]

ok
got a couple from sunday

player goes into muck on 12  to get his disc also gets another's discs
tosses other players disc 20 ft back to him (not toward the hole)

stroke or no stroke ?

also hole 12

what is the score

my drive goes into muck OB 
i throw from drop zone
i throw up shot to base of pole
tap in putt

circle 5  or circle 6 

i think i gave myself one to many strokes  (circle 6) and then pondered on this for several holes afterward
- this was a major brain cramp as it did affect thru the woods
i have no idea why i didnt ask the group (another brain cramp)

[damonshort]

player goes into muck on 12  to get his disc also gets another's discs
tosses other players disc 20 ft back to him (not toward the hole)

stroke or no stroke ?

Depends on who you're playing with. 

I might point out that you're not 'supposed' to do that and treat it as a warning, but technically it's a stroke; also might depend on who you are.... 

my drive goes into muck OB 
i throw from drop zone
i throw up shot to base of pole
tap in putt

circle 5  or circle 6 

5. four shots, one penalty shot.

[airspuds]

dang -  i knew i messed up that score but 1 stroke isnt going kill me but thinking about it for 6 holes did
dang dang dang 

on the other issue - he was willing to take a stroke and the comment was made
consider it a warning  and  if it was a different group and what card you were on
that he would get stroked

just confirming what  i knew '

thx

[Mike S]

There is no warning for practice throws.  But they have to be observed by 2 players or an official.

[Jon Brakel]

As an official I have witnessed two "practice" throws during play and just warned the player. They were not trying to take advantage or being disruptive. They just didn't know.

[Bruce Brakel]

Somebody flipped a disc out of the swamp back to me on Saturday on hole 10.  I didn't warn him or stroke him.  The act of returning a lost disc to the lost and found pile negates any stroke for the casual swamp flick.   

[can't putt]

I lost a disc on 18 before play that was found and returned during play.  The person who found it recognized me on another fairway.  We both walked to each other to exchange the disc instead of throwing it, fearing the practice throw penalty.

[Chainmeister]

I lost a disc on 18 before play that was found and returned during play.  The person who found it recognized me on another fairway.  We both walked to each other to exchange the disc instead of throwing it, fearing the practice throw penalty.

Yeah, in Bloomington I wandered across the bridge to the other side of the creek on 10a to retreive my disc and the disc of another guy in my group.  He called for his disc from across the bank.  I showed it to him and told him I would bring it  to him-- same fear.  We know better and act accordingly.  The kid who tosses his disc to his bag in his first tournament-- I am Sgt. Schultz.  I didn't see anything.  But I tell him that if I see it [again], I will have to call it.  Its sort of like an unofficial warning since there is no actual warning on this rule.

[damonshort]

maybe one of the dumber rules too, for a number of reasons.

[Bruce Brakel]

There's a place for the rule and there's a way it should be enforced.  I like Barrish's approach.  Obviously we don't want players taking practice drives or practice putts before they throw the real one.  By writing the rule overly broad, we get a clear, easy to apply rule.  I don't have to know your intent.  I don't have to speculate on whether you gained a competitive advantage from the flip back.  And by enforcing the rule according to its purpose, we can all have a fun round, and the winner can be the player who played the best. 

[airspuds]

hole 19
what a clusterf(*)*ck

one guy went to the pond to ask the kid if he found his disc
one guy behind the big tree waiting for pedestrians to clear

one guy freaking cause greek guy picked up his disc and tossed it

another guy and me just watching everything happening but not closely

where do you mark the guys disc that was picked up and thrown by the greeks ?

no one saw the players drive and since it was  19  the player didnt know exactly where the
second shot landed as he was watching everything unfold aslo


so the question is ?  should we have moved his disc to where he thought it was or let him play it where it lied  ?

[pickax]

803.07.B If a disc at rest on the playing surface
or supported by the target is moved, the
disc shall be replaced as close as possible
to its original location, as determined by
a majority of the group or an official

[Mukey]

As an official I have witnessed two "practice" throws during play and just warned the player. They were not trying to take advantage or being disruptive. They just didn't know.

I'm pretty sure I was one of those players at Stream-hood a few years ago. Usually people don't know and once they do, they don't throw discs back to people anymore

Spuds, buddy, put a rulebook in your bag